Old Testament Genocide

[Audiocranium]

God is holy in all His judgments? That's frustrating to me, because he did a lot of horrible things in the OT.

 

[Alabaster]

God is holy in all His judgments? That's frustrating to me, because he did a lot of horrible things in the OT.

They are only horrible from a mere human standpoint, yet they were just and good according to God, who can do no evil. Funny how man, who is evil, thinks he can judge God who is perfectly holy! Man has no standard by which to judge perfection.

 

[Deavonreye]

It is only "not evil" because according to god, whatever he does is his will, and that which is against his will. . . is "evil". Funny how that works, huh?

I'm sorry that I cannot agree with this so called "justice", . . . but I know that "babies being killed" can never be "just". But what god says. . . goes, right? So killing infants and even unborn babies is "holy", because god wills it.

This topic keeps going around and around. You don't see why I can't understand god's actions to be "perfectly holy", . . . and you believe that I "glorify man more than god" when I post what I do. But here's the thing, . . . "god" I don't know. People I do. Some of them are rotten. Some are wonderful.

It seems to be the case that "whatever means necessary to gain the most worshipful souls" is the name of the game here.

 

[Alabaster]

It is only "not evil" because according to god, whatever he does is his will, and that which is against his will. . . is "evil". Funny how that works, huh?

I'm sorry that I cannot agree with this so called "justice", . . . but I know that "babies being killed" can never be "just". But what god says. . . goes, right? So killing infants and even unborn babies is "holy", because god wills it.

This topic keeps going around and around. You don't see why I can't understand god's actions to be "perfectly holy", . . . and you believe that I "glorify man more than god" when I post what I do. But here's the thing, . . . "god" I don't know. People I do. Some of them are rotten. Some are wonderful.

It seems to be the case that "whatever means necessary to gain the most worshipful souls" is the name of the game here.

Of course, the unjust will call God's perfect justice a travesty. Of course, imperfect men will call God's goodness evil. Of course, men with finite understanding cannot fathom infinite intelligence.

 

[Deavonreye]

Of course, the unjust will call God's perfect justice a travesty. Of course, imperfect men will call God's goodness evil. Of course, men with finite understanding cannot fathom infinite intelligence.

Just curious, . . . is it justice to have unborn, newborns, infants, young children killed as "collateral damage" for the "sins of the older ones"? Is this goodness to cause all living things to die to rid the world of these "sinful creatures", . . . . only to have a world equally as sinful right after? Is this the "infinite intelligence" you speak of?

By the way, . . . in what way is god depicted as having "infinite intelligence"? How does "perfect justice" get in the way of "mercy"?

 

[Alabaster]

Just curious, . . . is it justice to have unborn, newborns, infants, young children killed as "collateral damage" for the "sins of the older ones"? Is this goodness to cause all living things to die to rid the world of these "sinful creatures", . . . . only to have a world equally as sinful right after? Is this the "infinite intelligence" you speak of?

It is judgment. God's judgment is fierce, like fire.

By the way, . . . in what way is god depicted as having "infinite intelligence"?

He is designer and creator of all things.

How does "perfect justice" get in the way of "mercy"?

It doesn't. He bestows mercy on us by His Grace. He created you, sees your sin, loves you anyway, and comes in the form of a man and is killed in the most horrible way to take your punishment, all because of His great love and mercy on you---but because of His great respect for you and your freedom to choose, He allows you to choose to let His death be in vain, a mockery, and He will let you pay for your own sin. He has great patience also, allowing you to live and breathe and still reject Him.

There is a time for mercy and then there is a time for righteous judgment.

 

[Deavonreye]

It is judgment. God's judgment is fierce, like fire.

Judgement against those who haven't done anything wrong [babies, infants, etc], but burning them down. I trust you can see how I wouldn't find this to be at all "just".

He is designer and creator of all things.

His "design" does not show "infinite intelligence" at all.

It doesn't. He bestows mercy on us by His Grace.

You can't have "mercy" and "perfect justice". "Perfect Justice" cannot include a middle man because true justice must be towards the one who is guilty. Justice is not served if "the murderer of my friend walks free because his great friend decides to take his time in prison, or in the gas chamber". It makes a mockery of justice, in fact.

 

[Alabaster]

[/B]

Judgement against those who haven't done anything wrong [babies, infants, etc], but burning them down. I trust you can see how I wouldn't find this to be at all "just".

Those babies are with Him. If they had lived out their pagan lives, they would be condemned. God is merciful to them in that judgment.

His "design" does not show "infinite intelligence" at all.

Yes it certainly does. You cannot have any knowledge about any thing without Him having originated it.

You can't have "mercy" and "perfect justice". "Perfect Justice" cannot include a middle man because true justice must be towards the one who is guilty. Justice is not served if "the murderer of my friend walks free because his great friend decides to take his time in prison, or in the gas chamber". It makes a mockery of justice, in fact.

Earthly justice doesn't compare with God's perfect justice. He doesn't let any who are guilty go free.

 

[Deavonreye]

Those babies are with Him. If they had lived out their pagan lives, they would be condemned. God is merciful to them in that judgment.

That isn't known at all. And by that logic, ALL babies, who god knows will grow up to turn from him, should be killed at birth, or not even be allowed to be born.

Yes it certainly does. You cannot have any knowledge about any thing without Him having originated it.

There are a miriad of things that I could point as evidence against "an intelligent design". But that is for the science forum.

Earthly justice doesn't compare with God's perfect justice. He doesn't let any who are guilty go free.

I realize that you must conclude that anything god does is somehow outside our ability to understand BECAUSE it doesn't make logical sense. Here's a hint. . . EVERYONE is guilty. Even those who perform the "mind response of agreement of this belief structure". If you cheat on your spouse, yet ask for "forgiveness", you are still guilty of the act, . . . "sins taken away" or not. Mercy is contradictory to justice.

 

[Deavonreye]

Hey, I have to be away from my computer for the rest of the day. I'll chat with you about this later. . . . . or, Alabaster, . . . we can do that "agree to disagree" thing.

 

[Alabaster]

[/B]
That isn't known at all. And by that logic, ALL babies, who god knows will grow up to turn from him, should be killed at birth, or not even be allowed to be born.

Logic? God doesn't move according to men's logic. He is holy and just and righteous and all He does is all right.

There are a miriad of things that I could point as evidence against "an intelligent design". But that is for the science forum.

I doubt that, intensely.

I realize that you must conclude that anything god does is somehow outside our ability to understand BECAUSE it doesn't make logical sense. Here's a hint. . . EVERYONE is guilty. Even those who perform the "mind response of agreement of this belief structure". If you cheat on your spouse, yet ask for "forgiveness", you are still guilty of the act, . . . "sins taken away" or not. Mercy is contradictory to justice.

Yes we are all guilty of sin, but those who put their faith in Jesus Christ, are not. In Christ God looks at me and it is as if I have never sinned. That is called justification.

 

[Bazz1040]

God is holy in all His judgments? That's frustrating to me, because he did a lot of horrible things in the OT.

Frustration comes from not understanding God and His plan, and that comes from not studying the Bible or not understanding what one reads.

 

[Deavonreye]

Logic? God doesn't move according to men's logic. He is holy and just and righteous and all He does is all right.

I realize that you must believe the way you do. I just don't. In my opinion, it seems that the "logic of man" is greater than what I find in the bible. I know, I know. Heresy.

I doubt that, intensely.

You are free to doubt. . . even intensly. But there are flaws that a "perfect designer" would never make. Again, for the science forum. Oh, and I know. Heresy.

Yes we are all guilty of sin, but those who put their faith in Jesus Christ, are not. In Christ God looks at me and it is as if I have never sinned. That is called justification.

It's called a lapse in judgement. You are guilty regardless of whether or not the judge chooses not to punish you, based upon your ability to believe stories in a book. The guilt is still yours and there can be no such thing as "perfect justice" when "only those who happen to believe the right god out of the thousands of them get a pass". It is a mockery of justice, plain and simple. Once again, I know. Heresy.

 

[Alabaster]

[/B]

It's called a lapse in judgement. You are guilty regardless of whether or not the judge chooses not to punish you, based upon your ability to believe stories in a book. The guilt is still yours and there can be no such thing as "perfect justice" when "only those who happen to believe the right god out of the thousands of them get a pass". It is a mockery of justice, plain and simple. Once again, I know. Heresy.

Actually, you are totally wrong about that. The blood of Jesus applied to my sin wipes it out. I bear no guilt before the one true God.

 

[Deavonreye]

Actually, you are totally wrong about that. The blood of Jesus applied to my sin wipes it out. I bear no guilt before the one true God.

I'm not wrong. You are still guilty regardless of whether or not there is a "loophole out of it". That's the problem with christianity that I continue to see. The complete LACK of justice . . . based upon a person's "thought crime". It is unethical to have a "step in" and proves a lack of justice. Like the analogy I used earlier. The person who rapes and murders women, but gets saved, gets his "get out of jail free card". But the old woman who has never done anything to anyone, but chose "the wrong path" is punished. It is not "justice".

I'm still wanting to know how these "babies, children" from the "global flood or genocides" go to heaven, and if so, why not EVERY child that potentially would be born into a "non-god friendly" nation isn't given the same? The problem is that you must assume that "they go to heaven" because the reality of it is exactly what you don't like. Little children being killed.

 

[elijah23]

What unbelievers consider as intolerable action coming from a holy God in their paradigm is misunderstood because they do not accept that God is holy in all His judgments. What man would judge to be a just punishment is not the same as what our holy God deems judgment.

In the OT, God commonly passed swift and harsh judgment for sin within men's lifetimes. Today, we have His immense and inestimable mercy in the Son, Jesus Christ, that we actually take for granted!

The Lord is always just, if not merciful.

 

[Alabaster]

I'm not wrong. You are still guilty regardless of whether or not there is a "loophole out of it". That's the problem with christianity that I continue to see. The complete LACK of justice . . . based upon a person's "thought crime". It is unethical to have a "step in" and proves a lack of justice. Like the analogy I used earlier. The person who rapes and murders women, but gets saved, gets his "get out of jail free card". But the old woman who has never done anything to anyone, but chose "the wrong path" is punished. It is not "justice".

I am telling you the truth of Jesus Christ and how His blood cleanses us of the stain of ALL sin, utterly.

You choose to reject that truth. It doesn't mean I am wrong. It means you reject truth. The truth remains---solid.

I'm still wanting to know how these "babies, children" from the "global flood or genocides" go to heaven, and if so, why not EVERY child that potentially would be born into a "non-god friendly" nation isn't given the same? The problem is that you must assume that "they go to heaven" because the reality of it is exactly what you don't like. Little children being killed.

They do not qualify for judgment as they are unable to perceive themselves as sinners in need of a Saviour. Only those who reject the free gift of salvation will experience the Great White Throne judgment.

 

[Deavonreye]

I am telling you the truth of Jesus Christ and how His blood cleanses us of the stain of ALL sin, utterly.

You choose to reject that truth. It doesn't mean I am wrong. It means you reject truth. The truth remains---solid.

Alabaster, I reject what you propose as "truth". . . . not any actual truth. Even if it WERE the truth, I must reject it because this, by definition, is a travesty of justice, when ONLY those who receive any "grace" are those who happen to believe this one religion over the thousands of others. "Thought crimes", when there is NO proof for any one religion being the "absolute truth" cannot be punished justly.

They do not qualify for judgment as they are unable to perceive themselves as sinners in need of a Saviour. Only those who reject the free gift of salvation will experience the Great White Throne judgment.

So, if your god really DOES care for everyone and want them to come to salvation, then if he chooses to let us "choose poorly", then he has played the biggest part in those who will be summarily judged. True grace MUST do this, before the baby is allowed to come "of age", or else god is showing a complete lack of caring for them. "God so LOVED. . . "? You can't say that with a straight face, then.

 

[Alabaster]

Alabaster, I reject what you propose as "truth". . . . not any actual truth. Even if it WERE the truth, I must reject it because this, by definition, is a travesty of justice, when ONLY those who receive any "grace" are those who happen to believe this one religion over the thousands of others. "Thought crimes", when there is NO proof for any one religion being the "absolute truth" cannot be punished justly.

That same amazing grace is offered to you. You have been given the absolute truth repeatedly. In that, you have been blessed more than many, yet you still refuse Christ. How He must love you! What marvelous patience my God has!

So, if your god really DOES care for everyone and want them to come to salvation, then if he chooses to let us "choose poorly", then he has played the biggest part in those who will be summarily judged. True grace MUST do this, before the baby is allowed to come "of age", or else god is showing a complete lack of caring for them. "God so LOVED. . . "? You can't say that with a straight face, then.

He desires that you use your incredible power of choice to love Him. I think your last comment is disgusting. You will eat those words one day.

 

[Deavonreye]

It may be "disgusting", but it is how I see it. To me, it shows a lack of care.

And again. . . . . your "know that I know" level of belief that you have spoken "absolute truth" isn't proven to me.