Once saved..always saved....It's right here.

[GodsGrace]

God foreknew that His creation wants to know what is outside the will of God. Now we know. Sin is working death in our bodies and working in driving us further & further from God where death will bring about its culmination of being separated from all that is good, just, holy, and God; hell.

I agree. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free" John 8:32 NASB.

But He also foreknew that some will love Him and want to be saved by Him. These be the ones that do truth which is why God would reveal His Son to them so that they may believe as our believing is a work of God.

So you believe Jesus died for just a few. What do you make of these scriptures:
1 Timothy 2:6
Hebrews 2:9
John 3:16
1 John 2:2

Where exactly do you read that Jesus came only for some? Please provide the proper scripture because so far you have not done this.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So this explanation above is for why they did not believe even in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Some men do not believe because they love the darkness. This is true and you're right about this.
But, as I posted previously, Jesus Himself explained why some would not believe and I do trust Him to know why. I post again Mathew 13:3-8 and Mathew 13:18-23
Yes. I do believe Jesus is the expert on knowing why one will not believe.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Once again, I thank you for making my point.

Nope. We can not make that judgment, because some sinners may believe later on in life, and they have too. It's just that at that moment, they are not seeking Him at all.

Of course! I was asking if God did not WANT TO MAKE THAT PERSON BE SAVED. Which is YOUR point.
One can become a believer at any point in one's life.

The desire is true for those He foreknew that would want to believe in His Son to be saved.

I asked you if God desires that ALL be saved. And you answer No. Please refer back to my first reply regarding the fact that Jesus died for ALL. You continue to skirt around John 3:16 but never go just one or two verses up to John 3:16. Why is that? It says for WHOEVER believes. NOT for those few who will believe. How much does scripture have to be twisted not to see this?
Mathew 11:15 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." NASB

I am sure the reason was that God knew at that time, that sinners in Macedonia were seeking Him then.

God knows what He's doing. I'm not here to second guess Him.

I witness the coming great tribulation and the pre trib rapture that comes before it. We are in everyday tribulation now.

The only reason I mention it is because a lot of believers are misapplying verses to imply that OSAS is false.

A lot of believers are misapplying verses to imply that OSAS is correct.
As far as the trib: I like to live every day as if Jesus was coming back that day.

Some churches like to tell me that if I don't do everything just right I'll end up in hell.
Some churches like to tell me that I better behave because at least I'll miss the tribulation.

Jesus hung on that cross for me. That's enough for me.

Wondering
Oops. This got left out:

John 3:18 says we, as sinners, were already condemned as Jesus is not sent to condemn the world, but that we might be saved through Him.

God foreknew that some will hate Him and do wrong to their own soul and love death as a result;

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.]/QUOTE]

I agree. I wouldn't say some love death - I'd say they don't understand the danger they're in or don't see it.

 

[GodsGrace]

PLEASE CLICK TO EXPAND

Can a man choose to believe what he doesn't believe? If a man believes, it is not by choice.

Paul said, "For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. Romans 10:10 And then he warns, "Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. Hebrews 3:12

So it depends on the heart, and like I said before, God gives men a believing heart to believe, and a spirit of understanding to understand.
MarkT
I had a problem with the quote feature so we'll have to use color. Sorry.
You see, you use scripture that does not make your point.
I agree with Romans 10:10 and Hebrews 3:12
How does this show me that my believing is NOT by choice?
Do you believe you're going to an Easter service tomorrow? What makes you believe that? An outside force, or yourself? God prepares the heart. EVERYONE is treated the same by God. He prepares the heart. It's up to you to accept His word or not. Mathew 13 in the parable of the sower is this concept. The word is given, but not accepted by all. But it's given to ALL.

So if a man believes, it is because God causes the belief. Truly belief is the work of God.
John 6:29
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
Jesus had just finished speaking to the pharisees who loved to do external works but did not know God.
Please study the above and let me know what YOU think the work of God is. Here is what scripture says: The work of God if for us to BELIEVE in Him whom God has sent. Do you know what Believe means in the Greek?
It means to understand with the heart, not the intellect, it means to agree to, to accept, to do as the one you believe in, to emulate that person. Jesus was telling the Pharisees that the work has to be internal, not external. Of the heart, as you would say. He's NOT saying that God is deciding whom He will save. It's exactly the opposite. If you believe in whom God has sent, you will be saved. Acts 16:31

The other teaching is that the kingdom of heaven is like a net; it captures the good and the bad, and at the end of the age, angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Mt. 13:47

There are all kinds of believers, good and bad; they are all captured in the net. Some denominations allow and even promote evil. So Jesus said, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ Mt. 7:21-23

No MarkT. I've taught the Kingdom of God and I can assure you it does NOT catch the bad.
Just quick: The Kingdom starts here. See Mathew 5:2-10

Also, see Mathew 13:44 The Kingdom is like... If you go to verse 47 it tells how the net is cast but the bad is immediately removed once its on shore. "SO IT WILL BE AT THE END OF THE AGE" Jesus is making a COMPARISON of how things will be at the end - people will be separated. If you check all the Kingdom scriptures, you'll find that only the good are there. Also read John 3:1-6 And specifically verse 3:
"...unless one is born again, he CANNOT see the Kingdom of God."
You think an unbeliever can see the Kingdom of God??

We were made to believe so I wouldn't say God forced the person to believe. The potter has a right over the clay. Romans 9:21
English. English. If we were MADE TO BELIEVE, it means we were FORCED TO BELIEVE.
If I MAKE you get me a book
it means
I FORCED you to get me a book

If your friend doesn't want to be saved, she won't be saved.
You're telling me. This is my whole point!

If you choose not to be a disciple then you won't be a disciple.
You're telling me. This is my whole point!

God doesn't offer eternal life. He grants it provide you keep his commandments. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’ Rev. 2:7
If I grant you a piece of property
Am I offering it?
No. Because if I offer it you'd have to accept it. So if God GRANTS eternal life, that means He's forcing it on me. Back to where we started. So the bottom line is that God forces everything on us. So He's FORCING me to go to hell. So how do you explain this verese?: 1 John 4:15 WHOEVER CONFESSES THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD... And 1 John 4.8 GOD IS LOVE. How does He love me if He predestines me to hell?

Food for fodder.

Wondering

 

[ChristDependent]

I've never said otherwise.

Than I misunderstood your post in #154. Apparently your highlight in red was only for the party of the devil, and not including Paul being of it, even though it was his thorn in the flesh.

That's why the trib discussions should be viewed separately. Eschatology has it's own forum. I've seen the "threats" you pose above to (unrepentant/fallen) believers from a few camps. It's a common ploy to obtain submissions to various positions. Believe like "this" or you'll get left behind.

I don't buy any of those angles. It's similar to threatening believers with eternal hell with a modern twist. Threats never seem to end in the christian sphere.

There are too many warnings from Jesus that are being misapplied towards loss of salvation when it is about missing out on the first harvest; the firstfruits of the resurrection; hence the pre trib rapture.

Therefore OSAS is true, but as many are called, only few are chosen to attend the Marriage Supper at the time that the Bridegroom comes for the abiding bride of Christ.

 

[ChristDependent]

I agree. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free" John 8:32 NASB.

So you believe Jesus died for just a few. What do you make of these scriptures:
1 Timothy 2:6
Hebrews 2:9
John 3:16
1 John 2:2

Where exactly do you read that Jesus came only for some? Please provide the proper scripture because so far you have not done this.

He came to lay down His life as a ransom for many, but as many are called, few are chosen to attend the Marriage Super. This is not about loss of salvation on those saved believers left behind, but it is about how any of us are received as a vessel unto honor in His House or later on as a vessel unto dishonor in His House for not looking to Him as their Good Shepherd for help in departing from iniquity..

Some men do not believe because they love the darkness. This is true and you're right about this.
But, as I posted previously, Jesus Himself explained why some would not believe and I do trust Him to know why. I post again Mathew 13:3-8 and Mathew 13:18-23
Yes. I do believe Jesus is the expert on knowing why one will not believe.

Jesus testified that no man can come to Him unless the Father draws him, as it is the Father gives them to the Son.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

But which last day will a believer find himself resurrected in? As Christ the firstfruits thus a vessel unto honor or as they that be Christ's at His coming as vessels unto dishonor as He will lose nothing?

Once again, I thank you for making my point.

That point being of John 3:18 is followed by the explanation as to why some do not even believe in His name in John 3:19-21 which is my point. Around around we go.. whenever we stop, God only knows.

Of course! I was asking if God did not WANT TO MAKE THAT PERSON BE SAVED. Which is YOUR point.

Was it my point? I was explaining how God foreknew a person of his desires not to be saved which is why the Father is not bothering to draw that sinner unto the Son to reveal His Son to them to not even believe in His name to be saved when they prefer their evil deeds rather than be reproved of them.

Knowing this truth helps us to see how those professing Him or had fallen away from the faith to no longer believe in Him are still His, because the Father did bother to reveal His Son to them to even believe in His name. Thus OSAS is true since the Father gave us to the Son and not lose any one, but not every one will be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes and it is those verses is why some believers do not think OSAS is true.

One can become a believer at any point in one's life.

Yes, but better today than tomorrow since death can strike at any moment ( This for any readers out there procrastinating in coming to Jesus for eternal life, because they want to "live" first ).

I asked you if God desires that ALL be saved. And you answer No. Please refer back to my first reply regarding the fact that Jesus died for ALL. You continue to skirt around John 3:16 but never go just one or two verses up to John 3:16. Why is that? It says for WHOEVER believes. NOT for those few who will believe. How much does scripture have to be twisted not to see this?
Mathew 11:15 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." NASB

The few is a description of how bad it will be in the latter days before the Bridegroom comes, because of the falling away from the faith.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

That pertains to all of those movements of the "Spirit" out there that promotes the lie that a believer can receive the Holy Spirit again ( 2 Corinthians 11;1-4 ) after a sign in the flesh ( Matthew 12:39 ); even a sign of tongues that never comes with interpretation for believers to seek after ( 1 Corinthians 14:20-22 ).

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, ....4......heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

That pertains to the Promise Keepers' movement and the Graham Crusade that bind men with promises and commitments in resorting to the flesh to finish what was begun in the Spirit. Galatians 3:1-3 & Galatians 5:1 & 5 * PS Use the KJV because the CEV was used in the PK movement which twisted the message that Paul wanted us to have as if it is okay to make promises to God that they cannot keep as the PK movement lied, saying that God will give grace to keep trying to keep those promises.

The Graham Crusade after preaching the gospel that it is all those that call on the name of the Lord to be saved, then they mislead by giving the altar call of "If you are not sure you are saved, come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ" as if keeping that commitment is how any one can have assurance of salvation. That is the same as finishing by the flesh in doing the best you can in keeping that commitment when we are supposed to live by faith in Jesus Christ to finish His work in us in helping us to understand & abide in His words in the KJV to follow Him by faith alone. In keeping with the gospel message, Graham should have said "If you are not sure you are saved, if you had called upon the name of the Lord to be saved, believe you are saved." But he did not. Any unsure about their salvation leaves there still unsure since it is all on them now to keep that commitment to follow Christ.

So this is why many have fallen away from the faith in these latter days.

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? 9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

This is why many believers are not wearing their wedding garment which is our faith in Jesus Christ.

God knows what He's doing. I'm not here to second guess Him.

There is no second guessing Him. It is written as such in Acts 16th chapter.

A lot of believers are misapplying verses to imply that OSAS is correct.

And yet... you posted this below.

Jesus hung on that cross for me. That's enough for me.

That cannot be enough for you if you do not believe in OSAS.

As far as the trib: I like to live every day as if Jesus was coming back that day.

Some churches like to tell me that if I don't do everything just right I'll end up in hell.
Some churches like to tell me that I better behave because at least I'll miss the tribulation.

There is tribulation and then there is the great tribulation when the whole earth will be in that hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth of receiving the mark of the beast or not in order to buy and sell to survive in that new world order.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The days of the elect will all be shortened because they will not see the great tribulation.

 

[smaller]

Than I misunderstood your post in #154. Apparently your highlight in red was only for the party of the devil, and not including Paul being of it, even though it was his thorn in the flesh.

Brilliant deduction. Glad you picked up on that detail. Few seem able to grasp the implication.

There are too many warnings from Jesus that are being misapplied towards loss of salvation when it is about missing out on the first harvest;

No believer will miss out. Look at the previous observation. There IS a fulcrum of adverse judgment in the flesh of every believer that is not them as Gods children.

the firstfruits of the resurrection; hence the pre trib rapture.

My own distaste for the sight you propose on this matter stems from seeing that methodology used to abuse believers. It's just another slant to condemn believers and overlook the more obvious problem that everyone has in their own flesh. In Romans 3:9 and Gal. 3:22 Paul informs us that we as believers are not one bit better than anyone else when it comes to being under sin.

Your posture condemns believers for sin. God in Christ doesn't do that, period. 2 Cor. 5:19. Why? Because there are other parties in view that are not the believers.

Therefore OSAS is true, but as many are called, only few are chosen to attend the Marriage Supper at the time that the Bridegroom comes for the abiding bride of Christ.

Because many positions do not understand the 'multiparty' presentation of the scriptures, wrong judgment continually pours forth. And does so, technically, FROM the adverse parties in our own flesh.

Habakkuk 1:4
Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.

 

[WIP]

It's my free will that allows me to choose to be saved:

I'm just curious and would like more clarity about what you believe. Do you believe we can actually make that choice to be saved or do we just choose to accept salvation which has been offered? Maybe both are one and the same but then I'm recalling John 6:44 NKJV "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;"

 

[GodsGrace]

He came to lay down His life as a ransom for many, but as many are called, few are chosen to attend the Marriage Super. This is not about loss of salvation on those saved believers left behind, but it is about how any of us are received as a vessel unto honor in His House or later on as a vessel unto dishonor in His House for not looking to Him as their Good Shepherd for help in departing from iniquity..

Jesus testified that no man can come to Him unless the Father draws him, as it is the Father gives them to the Son.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

But which last day will a believer find himself resurrected in? As Christ the firstfruits thus a vessel unto honor or as they that be Christ's at His coming as vessels unto dishonor as He will lose nothing?

That point being of John 3:18 is followed by the explanation as to why some do not even believe in His name in John 3:19-21 which is my point. Around around we go.. whenever we stop, God only knows.

Was it my point? I was explaining how God foreknew a person of his desires not to be saved which is why the Father is not bothering to draw that sinner unto the Son to reveal His Son to them to not even believe in His name to be saved when they prefer their evil deeds rather than be reproved of them.

Knowing this truth helps us to see how those professing Him or had fallen away from the faith to no longer believe in Him are still His, because the Father did bother to reveal His Son to them to even believe in His name. Thus OSAS is true since the Father gave us to the Son and not lose any one, but not every one will be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes and it is those verses is why some believers do not think OSAS is true.

Yes but better today than tomorrow since death can strike at any moment ( This for any readers out there procrastinating in coming to Jesus for eternal life, because they want to "live" first ).

The few is a description of how bad it will be in the latter days before the Bridegroom comes, because of the falling away from the faith.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

That pertains to all of those movements of the "Spirit" out there that promotes the lie that a believer can receive the Holy Spirit again ( 2 Corinthians 11;1-4 ) after a sign in the flesh ( Matthew 12:39 ); even a sign of tongues that never comes with interpretation for believers to seek after ( 1 Corinthians 14:20-22 ).

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, ....4......heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

That pertains to the Promise Keepers' movement and the Graham Crusade that bind men with promises and commitments in resorting to the flesh to finish what was begun in the Spirit. Galatians 3:1-3 & Galatians 5:1 & 5 * PS Use the KJV because the CEV was used in the PK movement which twisted the message that Paul wanted us to have as if it is okay to make promises to God that they cannot keep as the PK movement lied, saying that God will give grace to keep trying to keep those promises.

The Graham Crusade after preaching the gospel that it is all those that call on the name of the Lord to be saved, then they mislead by giving the altar call of "If you are not sure you are saved, come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ" as if keeping that commitment is how any one can have assurance of salvation. That is the same as finishing by the flesh in doing the best you can in keeping that commitment when we are supposed to live by faith in Jesus Christ to finish His work in us in helping us to understand & abide in His words in the KJV to follow Him by faith alone. In keeping with the gospel message, Graham should have said "If you are not sure you are saved, if you had called upon the name of the Lord to be saved, believe you are saved." But he did not. Any unsure about their salvation leaves there still unsure since it is all on them now to keep that commitment to follow Christ.

So this is why many have fallen away from the faith in these latter days.

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? 9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

This is why many believers are not wearing their wedding garment which is our faith in Jesus Christ.

There is no second guessing Him. It is written as such in Acts 16th chapter.

And yet... you posted this below.

That cannot be enough for you if you do not believe in OSAS.

There is tribulation and then there is the great tribulation when the whole earth will be in that hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth of receiving the mark of the beast or not in order to buy and sell to survive in that new world order.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The days of the elect will all be shortened because they will not see the great tribulation.

Hello CD
This is bible study, so I think I'm going to have to answer you!
Your reply gave me a few good chuckles. In a good way.
I'm wondering if English is your mother tongue because you say this:
I was explaining how God foreknew a person of his desires not to be saved which is why the Father is not bothering to draw that sinner ...

I don't think you mean to say "bothering." Maybe you meant "allowing" or some other word.

There's much to cover here and it is Easter. This will have to wait till Monday.
In the meantime, if you'd care to explain better about this idea of yours about the Wedding Banquet.
It sounds very legalistic to me. Are you using Mathew 22:1-14 as your base?
Why will some NOT be invited to the banquet? I don't understand.

Also, I find what you say here interesting but this alone is a few pages of writing for me to answer:
"If you are not sure you are saved, come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ" as if keeping that commitment is how any one can have assurance of salvation. That is the same as finishing by the flesh in doing the best you can in keeping that commitment when we are supposed to live by faith in Jesus Christ to finish His work in us in helping us to understand & abide in His words in the KJV to follow Him by faith alone. In keeping with the gospel message, Graham should have said "If you are not sure you are saved, if you had called upon the name of the Lord to be saved, believe you are saved." But he did not. Any unsure about their salvation leaves there still unsure since it is all on them now to keep that commitment to follow Christ.

I mean, do you think one makes a commitment to Christ and then does NOT have to keep it?
If a person is not sure they are saved - there must be a reason. That reason has to be investigated a little - you don't just tell someone that they are because how could YOU be so sure? We are not to judge a persons soul, not in the negative and not in the positive.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm just curious and would like more clarity about what you believe. Do you believe we can actually make that choice to be saved or do we just choose to accept salvation which has been offered? Maybe both are one and the same but then I'm recalling John 6:44 NKJV "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;"

Hi WIP
Biblically it would be the second statement of yours.
Jesus died for all and offers salvation to all - but, yes, we must choose to accept that salvation. So, in that sense, we are choosing to be saved. Salvation is a free gift, but we have to want that gift. If we deny it and do not accept it we cannot be saved because we have denied the Holy Spirit. Mathew 12:31

John 6:44 is easy to understand in light of the general biblical concept that God desires all men to come to salvation.
The Father draws all men to Him, and also to His Son. Jesus is God, after all. So if God Father draws all men to Himself, He is also drawing all men to God Son.

Romans 2:19-20
From the beginning of time God has let Himself be known to man. God wishes to draw man to Himself. He makes the first move in in pouring out His spirit to all men and in reaching down to us. John 6:44 is referring to this. God draws all men to Him through his goodness (grace) and through the Holy Spirit - which is one of the works of the Holy Spirit (to convict). If God did not draw man, how would man know of God?

So, in keeping with a complete biblical concept, John just means that the Father draws all, not any one man in particular.

Thanks for the opportunity to explain myself.

Wondering

 

[ChristDependent]

My own distaste for the sight you propose on this matter stems from seeing that methodology used to abuse believers. It's just another slant to condemn believers and overlook the more obvious problem that everyone has in their own flesh. In Romans 3:9 and Gal. 3:22 Paul informs us that we as believers are not one bit better than anyone else when it comes to being under sin.

Your posture condemns believers for sin. God in Christ doesn't do that, period. 2 Cor. 5:19. Why? Because there are other parties in view that are not the believers.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.....5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Galatians 5:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

There is condemnation to those that walk not after the Spirit, but after the flesh.

James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Believers under an oath that cannot be finished will fall under condemnation.

Hebrews 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

So it is a cursing to be a vessel unto dishonor in His House that did not depart from iniquity.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The destruction of the body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit is physical death that will occur on the saints that are left behind as only the vessels unto honor are received by the Bridegroom for being ready & found abiding in Him. Those left behind are still saved as 1 Corinthians 3:15 testify above.

 

[smaller]

There is condemnation to those that walk not after the Spirit, but after the flesh.

Unfortunately believers read that and they quite falsely think they have no vile body, no indwelling sin in their flesh, no evil present with them, no temptations of the tempter, no deceptions in/of the flesh, no sin, NONE of which are TRUE. Romans 7:17-13, Romans 7:17-21, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 3:8, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 Tim. 1:15, Gal. 4:14, Gal. 5:17.

In such claims, that believers do not carry their own burdens, their own contentions to the Spirit in their own flesh, believers are yet again deceived by the factual conditions of the flesh, and are turned into liars and hypocrites by the factual adversarial relationship of the flesh against the Spirit.

Believers who are honest will speak honestly about these things because they are GIVEN the fruit of honesty by entering INTO these facts and will then EXPOSE these facts. BUT there is "resistance" in the flesh to speak these things and apply them personally to their own flesh. That resistance is automatic and it is demonic in nature.

Believers under an oath that cannot be finished will fall under condemnation.

Let's just face a fact that the Word doesn't have nice things to say to the flesh of any of us.

Hebrews 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

And Paul himself had such a thorn in his own flesh, a messenger of Satan, a bringer of temptations and lusts. Evil present with him, in his own ground of flesh. See previous scriptures above.

Divide there, see the same things for the flesh of all believers, and ADVERSE JUDGMENTs are all settled, where it belongs.

So it is a cursing to be a vessel unto dishonor in His House that did not depart from iniquity.

Every natural man is planted in weakness, DISHONOR and corruption. 1 Cor. 15:41-49. These are not "optional" conditions of the flesh. They are facts.

The vessel of dishonor is IN our own flesh.

The destruction of the body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit is physical death that will occur on the saints that are left behind as only the vessels unto honor are received by the Bridegroom for being ready & found abiding in Him. Those left behind are still saved as 1 Corinthians 3:15 testify above.

Paul shows us clearly that in the flesh of all of us is a vessel of dishonor. There is no way around it.

Romans 9:20-22

God deals with TWO different vessels in the same LUMP of flesh. Just as Paul shows us for himself in the many scriptures above, particularly so in 2 Cor. 12:7, IDENTIFYING "who" that vessel of dishonor is. A messenger of Satan, sin dwelling in the flesh, evil present with him, temptations and lusts in his own sorry vile flesh.

It was these things that he sought to be divided from in every way and in the final way, by resurrection, while he was still here in the flesh.

The usurper of the flesh temple is our adversary who kills the flesh temple.

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Who is that thief? He is the usurper of the flesh temples of all men.

Mark 4:15
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Living Word is sown in us. We all have this adversary in our own flesh. This is proven by lusts, temptations, deceptions of the flesh, and finally, the death of the flesh.

It's also the reason why exactly zero of us will ever agree on everything, at least not until we see just exactly WHO it is we are fighting against, and not each others as believers. Eph. 6:11-12

The battles we bear are in our own flesh, and this because of our factual adversary.

 

[ChristDependent]

Hello CD
This is bible study, so I think I'm going to have to answer you!
Your reply gave me a few good chuckles. In a good way.
I'm wondering if English is your mother tongue because you say this:
I was explaining how God foreknew a person of his desires not to be saved which is why the Father is not bothering to draw that sinner ...

I don't think you mean to say "bothering." Maybe you meant "allowing" or some other word.

Since the Father foreknew the sinner preferring his evil deeds rather than come to the light to be reproved of them, this is what I mean that He will not bother drawing them unto the Son. In other words, He will not do it, even for a little bit when it is clear the sinner prefer his evil deeds over salvation..

There's much to cover here and it is Easter. This will have to wait till Monday.
In the meantime, if you'd care to explain better about this idea of yours about the Wedding Banquet.
It sounds very legalistic to me. Are you using Mathew 22:1-14 as your base?
Why will some NOT be invited to the banquet? I don't understand.

All saved believers are invited. Any arriving that have not their wedding garment on is a believer having voided his faith in Him and will be cast out IMO.

There are those that are invited but prefer the cares of this life rather than leaving for the King's Supper and they are actually choosing to be left behind. Luke 14:15-24

Now if you consider how bad it will be for the saints during the great tribulation, even towards the very end, I doubt any believer will prefer the cares of that life at all to choose to be left behind, especially since they cannot buy or sell unless they have the mark of the beast, and with all the bowls of judgment being poured out on that world of that time for having that mark.

So Jesus is telling believers to be ready and abiding in Him now or else because there is an escape.

Also, I find what you say here interesting but this alone is a few pages of writing for me to answer:

"If you are not sure you are saved, come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ" as if keeping that commitment is how any one can have assurance of salvation. That is the same as finishing by the flesh in doing the best you can in keeping that commitment when we are supposed to live by faith in Jesus Christ to finish His work in us in helping us to understand & abide in His words in the KJV to follow Him by faith alone. In keeping with the gospel message, Graham should have said "If you are not sure you are saved, if you had called upon the name of the Lord to be saved, believe you are saved." But he did not. Any unsure about their salvation leaves there still unsure since it is all on them now to keep that commitment to follow Christ.

I mean, do you think one makes a commitment to Christ and then does NOT have to keep it?

One sin and that believer has broken that commitment to follow Him, right? He can't go around saying that he has made a commitment since five years old and had kept it ever since is liken to saying that he has not sinned since, but yet he feels free to judge others when they sin and tell them to make a recommitment. It is a false witness and Jesus said a false witness defiles a man.

Matthew 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. ......18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man:

A believer's commitment speaks of himself, his will, his determination; his flesh in following Jesus. This is the false witness just as keeping his commitment goes to his credit and his glory; not God's.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

John 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

This is having the form of godliness but denying the power thereof when we are supposed to live by faith in the Son of God as our Good Shepherd in finishing His work in us & for helping us to follow Him.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage....5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:....11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

If a person is not sure they are saved - there must be a reason. That reason has to be investigated a little - you don't just tell someone that they are because how could YOU be so sure? We are not to judge a persons soul, not in the negative and not in the positive.

If they are confessing the Lord Jesus Christ and believing that God raised Him from the dead, they are saved as all those that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved; therefore ergo all those that have called upon the name of the Lord are saved.

Many believers out there are saved by believing the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead, BUT they do not believe the promise for believing those two conditions to be saved by, and yet by His words, they are still saved. These saved believers are laboring in unbelief and coming short of that rest in Jesus which is why they will draw back when Jesus appears because by that commitment is the knowledge of sin and no one will be justified by trying to keep that commitment to follow Christ when the standard of Jesus's is higher than the works of the law.

So the religious christian's only hope is to trust Jesus at His word and ask for forgiveness for taking on all yokes of bondages that they should be trusting Him as their Good Shepherd for so they can rest in Him.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.....9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

This confidence of the elect in Jesus Christ is why the elect can leave their "saved" loved ones behind, because He will finish His work in those left behind at the pre trib rapture too as they will be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[ChristDependent]

The battles we bear are in our own flesh, and this because of our factual adversary.

The battle is given to Jesus to bear by trusting Him to finish His work in us as testified in the signature and that also includes those wayward and unrepentant saints and former believers left behind at the pre trib rapture event as they will be received later on as vessels unto dishonor IN His HOUSE..

 

[smaller]

The battle is given to Jesus to bear by trusting Him to finish His work in us as testified in the signature and that also includes those wayward and unrepentant saints and former believers left behind at the pre trib rapture event as they will be received later on as vessels unto dishonor IN His HOUSE..

It's quite unfortunate that your position is stuck on the whole pretrib postures. That's pretty far down the list of priorities.

There won't be any "believers" left behind. None. If Christ is sufficient for us, He is also sufficient for them. Your position is just another slant to condemn them, even if temporarily.

 

[smaller]

It's my free will that allows me to choose to be saved:

It is never the will of a fish to be caught. It is the Will of the Fisherman.

 

[ChristDependent]

It's quite unfortunate that your position is stuck on the whole pretrib postures. That's pretty far down the list of priorities.

There won't be any "believers" left behind. None. If Christ is sufficient for us, He is also sufficient for them. Your position is just another slant to condemn them, even if temporarily.

As opposed to you saying they were never saved at all?

Or am I forgetting your stance on this? Do you believe in OSAS or not?

How do you apply this reference to mean?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Seems like there is a price to be paid when believers are still found in iniquity when the Bridegroom comes. Again, this points to God judging His House first at the pre trib rapture. Those left behind are the vessels unto dishonor in His House to be received later on after the great tribulation.

 

[smaller]

As opposed to you saying they were never saved at all?

I've never stated such.

Or am I forgetting your stance on this? Do you believe in OSAS or not?

How do you apply this reference to mean?

I fly only one flag when it comes to believers. Those who have called upon Jesus to save them, will be saved. Period.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Seems like there is a price to be paid when believers are still found in iniquity when the Bridegroom comes.

Seems like you quickly forgot the lesson we already shared. Would there be one in Paul's own flesh that would hear those words, depart from me?

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Every last one of us who believe will hear those Words the moment we depart our flesh OR are divided from the enemy in the flesh.

But rather than TAKE JESUS' Words for our LIFE, as we should, we run away from them as fast as possible.

 

[ChristDependent]

I've never stated such.

As communication is varied between other threads, it was difficult for me to recollect.

I fly only one flag when it comes to believers. Those who have called upon Jesus to save them, will be saved. Period.

Seems like you quickly forgot the lesson we already shared. Would there be one in Paul's own flesh that would hear those words, depart from me?

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Every last one of us who believe will hear those Words the moment we depart our flesh OR are divided from the enemy in the flesh.

But rather than TAKE JESUS' Words for our LIFE, as we should, we run away from them as fast as possible.

The lesson in relation to the topic was something I had not understood.

But thanks for sharing anyway.

 

[smaller]

The lesson in relation to the topic was something I had not understood.

But thanks for sharing anyway.

Claiming off topic is not yours to make.

I speak to the fact that believers, all, are factually bound with partial sight. And that in our own ground of flesh, exists resistance to Gods Ways.

God in Christ will save those who have called upon Him in equal measures, not on the basis of our works, not on the basis of what we understand, not on the basis of sacraments, but by His Own Mercy to us all.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

That salvation is past tense to eternal tense, the moment forward that anyone calls upon Him to SAVE.

Does this abandon judgments altogether? Never. We all bear, in our own flesh, judgments that are adverse. This is the part that none in the flesh care to hear.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is never the will of a fish to be caught. It is the Will of the Fisherman.

Not if I don't bite the bait.

 

[smaller]

Not if I don't bite the bait.

Jesus catches every fish He desires to catch.

No fish WANTS to be caught.