Once saved..always saved....It's right here.

[GodsGrace]

Unlikely.

HOW did Paul obtain Gods Mercy in Christ?

1 Timothy 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

We all act ignorantly in unbelief. Sometimes in belief too.
God is merciful.
Not wishing for any to perish.

 

[Cygnus]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

And verse 6 here, where it says... they are thrown into the fire and burned.

What does that mean to you? ... thrown into the fire and burned>



JLB

You need to read John 15:6 with respect to John 15:5.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing

Only a true believer can abide in Christ. If you're not a true christian then you don't abide in Christ.

 

[Cygnus]

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2

Who does "He" refer to in this verse that says "He" takes away...?

These are taken away from being "in Christ".

What happens to these that are taken away from being "in Christ"?

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:5-6

JLB

Sooooooo, you're saying someone can be snatched out of Jesus' hand????? Despite Jesus saying you can't?
Where does it say they are "in Christ"? You seemed to have added that to scripture.

The verse is saying if you are a true believer, saved, you won't be cast out. If you are not a true believer...you will be cast out.

 

[Cygnus]

In John 10:1-5, it is when believers climb up another way that they wind up following a stranger's voice. This can be applied to believers thinking they can get another drink of the One Spirit in getting tongues which never comes with interpretation. This is the falling away from the faith spoken of in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 & here;

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,....7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

This is Paul explaining how that iniquity of the falling away from the faith was happening even in his day.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So those believers that think they can receive the Holy Spirit again with power by the evidence of tongues as they do so by addressing the Holy Spirit Himself to come and fall on them, thus going around the Son in coming to God the Father ( John 10:1 ), God will permit the strong delusion to occur for believing that lie as He who let, will let till He be taken out of the way.

Therefore all believers that have the new age mentality of receiving the "Spirit" again after that sign or other signs in the flesh have fallen away from the faith. Matthew 12:39 & 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 & 2 Corinthians 13:5

This is why Paul remind them when they had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth by the hearing of the gospel.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Paul goes on to the 3rd chapter in explaining how these wicked, unreasonable men that have not faith, that follow not after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly as those believers are in those movements of the "Spirit", that they are not to be treated as the enemy, but admonish them because they are still brothers.

2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;....4 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

But as in John 10th chapter, there are sheep that were not of the fold that follow His voice and yet He must bring them, because they are His and they will be made to hear His voice and be of the one fold & one shepherd.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Is it possible for those that have gone astray to hear His voice finally by His grace and by His help and repent to return to their first love and shun vain & profane babbling to pray normally so that they may know what they had prayed for to give the Father thanks in Jesus's name for answered prayers? Yes. 2 Timothy 2:24-26 There is always a way back to the Bridegroom until that door is shut at the rapture.

You presented a lot of verses...but I don't see where you answered my post.
Just because atrue christian may be deceived...it doesn't mean they lose their salvation.

 

[Cygnus]

Cygnus, The promise is for those who believe. It's not for those who stop believing.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)

OSAS is a very, very powerful indoctrination. You'll have to allow yourself to honestly consider something outside of the box of OSAS thinking to get it. Honestly considering something doesn't mean you have to accept it. It simply means you honestly consider how something you never thought of before can be true. From there you can then make your mind up if you're going to adapt your doctrinal beliefs accordingly. So non-OSAS isn't about making someone abandon their hard and fast OSAS beliefs. The real battle is getting them to even be able to see the alternate argument. Indoctrinations blind the eyes of people so they are unable to do that.

OSAS doctrine is one of a handful of false doctrines that have developed over time as the result of the church's horrible misunderstanding of Paul's faith vs. law doctrine started by the early church. The error produced by this misunderstanding has been compounding until now we even have a hyper-grace doctrine in the church that says even unbelievers can and will be saved.

Where does the bible evn talk about those that stop believing losing their salvation? Can you provide a verse...or are you presenting opinion?
This verse gets pretty deep real fast when you try to understand just what "if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."...means. It's kinda saying if you deny the resurrection your belief is in vain. Personally I think you are taking this verse out of context when you apply it to a OSAS message in an attempt to deny that theology.

 

[Cygnus]

Jesus chooses everybody.
He died for everybody when He went to the cross.
His sacrifice is sufficient for all men - past, present and future.
HOWEVER, that sacrifice must be accepted to be efficient.
I like John 3:16 It speaks about having to BELIEVE and believing is accepting.
Also, John 1:12 and Acts 16:31

So YES, we DO have to choose Jesus.

I boast this:
Ephesians 1:7

Wondering

John 15:6 seems to say you didn't chose Jesus but He choose you....
6 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Now, you may boast in Eph 1:7....In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Which is great.....but you seem to be boasting in the choosing of that redemption. Why did you chose redemption in Christ and another not?

 

[Cygnus]

Interesting concept.

Would you care to expound?
Because an awful lot of people will be doomed to damnation if your view is correct.

And, if your view is correct, then the opposite is also true.
"If you can be saved - you already are."

Bringing your view to its logical conclusion means that EVERYONE is saved.

Wondering

Well, for starters my "view" is incorrect because my "view" as you put it is false...you see, you can't lose your salvation.

BUT....if you can you have already lost it. Or perhaps you can tell me just what I need to do to do enough to keep my salvation. Please present a chapter and verse or two that shows just what I must do.

You're theology teaches we may be saved by faith and grace provided by the power in the blood of Christ....but we remain in Christ because of what we do?
How many sins can we commit before we are lost? How many moments of disbelief are we allowed to have? How many commandments must we not follow in order to lose our salvation?

As I said, if you are relying on yourself to remain in salvation...you cut a bad deal....and have already lost your salvation.

 

[Cygnus]

Cygnus
I've been here from the start. I went through each sentence of the verse you posted, you refused it. (post 15)
We went through the English meaning of the word "snatch". You refused it.
Many have posted biblical proof that salvation can be lost. You refuse it.
Quick review: You cannot be snatched - but you could walk away of your own free will (which you said yourself, please see my post no. 81).

So you cannot say a theology has not been presented. You CAN say that you refuse it.

Jethro Bodine in post no. 134 has made some interesting comments.
Maybe you could think on that a little instead of having a scriptures war.

We can pull out scripture verses and prove what we want to but the N.T. is a complete concept.
The concept is that man is sinful and requires salvation so he could be with God.
Good so far?
How is one saved? One is saved by BELIEVING on the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 1:12 Acts 16:31

BELIEVING is a present (progressive) tense. Not past. You must believe now. right now. And it's progressive - it continues for as long as the action lasts. Then it stops. I've said this before but you also refuse this.

So what happens if you STOP believing?
You weren't saved BEFORE you believed, were you?
So then how could you be saved if you STOP believing?
Wouldn't that put you in the same condition you were in BEFORE you decided to believe?

Wondering

So, what you are saying is that if you stop believing...you lose your salvation...stopping in belief has the ability to snatch you from Jesus' hand? Where does the bible teach that?

In my christian life there has been times when my faith was shaken to the ground and belief in Christ was stopped....your view of Hebrew 6 tells me I'm lost forever. It's impossiblele to restore me.

As I said, if you can lose your salvation...you already have. There's NO HOPE in your gospel.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 15:6 seems to say you didn't chose Jesus but He choose you....
6 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Now, you may boast in Eph 1:7....In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Which is great.....but you seem to be boasting in the choosing of that redemption. Why did you chose redemption in Christ and another not?

Cygnus,
I'll answer the above but am having difficulty because of the scripture you posted. It says something very different from 3 bibles of mine that I checked, incl the NASB and the KJV. Could you please telll me what bible you're using? It also has some strange words I've never heard before.

Also, please check John 15:6
Here's what the NASB says:
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up, and they gather them,and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Also, you keep posting verses that prove my point that salvation can be lost. Not that I mind!

I've never been accused of boasting in the choosing of my redemption. This whole conversation with you has forced me to make such statements. I thank God that I know Him and I look forward to being in His presence one day. If you really wanted to speak about choice, I'd be happy to. I have other ideas on this subject - however, it's difficult to do since you object to the very word "choice." So we'll let that go.

As far as your last question as to why I chose God and someone else didn't --

Please read Mathew 13:3-9 and Mathew 13:18.23
Maybe I'm Mathew 13:8 ?

BTW, this parable also shows how salvation can be lost. If you read carefully...

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, for starters my "view" is incorrect because my "view" as you put it is false...you see, you can't lose your salvation.

BUT....if you can you have already lost it. Or perhaps you can tell me just what I need to do to do enough to keep my salvation. Please present a chapter and verse or two that shows just what I must do.

You're theology teaches we may be saved by faith and grace provided by the power in the blood of Christ....but we remain in Christ because of what we do?
How many sins can we commit before we are lost? How many moments of disbelief are we allowed to have? How many commandments must we not follow in order to lose our salvation?

As I said, if you are relying on yourself to remain in salvation...you cut a bad deal....and have already lost your salvation.

Cygnus,
If you don't follow along with my reasoning, this conversation will soon end.
YOU said that if I can lose my salvation, I already have.
I said that then the opposite is also true: If I can be saved, I already am.
And since God CAN save, it logically means WE ARE ALL SAVED.

Your answer is that your view is incorrect. ??

We need more verses? Okay.
Romans 11:17-22
2 Peter 2:20-22

You ask what we must do to keep our salvation. You also ask:
How many sins can we commit before we are lost? How many moments of disbelief are we allowed to have? How many commandments must we not follow in order to lose our salvation?

The answer is easy Cygnus.
What did you do to get your salvation?
That's what you have to do to keep your salvation.
Romans 10:9.11

It doesn't have to do with sinning or moments of disbelief or commandments not followed.
Do you know anybody that's perfect? I don't. If it depended on the above, we'd all be lost.
it depends on our trusting Jesus - and our not ABANDONING Him. If we ABANDON him we become lost because we find ourselves in the same condition we were in before we met Jesus - the condition of UNBELIEF.

Nothing depends on us. The only action we have to take is to accept Jesus as our Lord and continue to abide with Him.

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where does the bible evn talk about those that stop believing losing their salvation? Can you provide a verse...or are you presenting opinion?
This verse gets pretty deep real fast when you try to understand just what "if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."...means. It's kinda saying if you deny the resurrection your belief is in vain. Personally I think you are taking this verse out of context when you apply it to a OSAS message in an attempt to deny that theology.

Well, if you don't want to offer some kind of explanation then I guess the debate is over.
The passage says what it says. It's language is clear. The saved Corinthians are saved if they hold fast the word of the gospel they heard and received. Any believing prior to them no longer holding fast the word of the gospel is believing done in vain. The believing they had done can not save them. But popular hyper grace doctrine says any amount of belief prior to them not believing anymore had already secured their salvation. That's not what the passage says. But I understand how people are able to look at words that directly and clearly contradict their doctrines and are completely and utterly unable to see them.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

 

[GodsGrace]

So, what you are saying is that if you stop believing...you lose your salvation...stopping in belief has the ability to snatch you from Jesus' hand? Where does the bible teach that?

In my christian life there has been times when my faith was shaken to the ground and belief in Christ was stopped....your view of Hebrew 6 tells me I'm lost forever. It's impossiblele to restore me.

As I said, if you can lose your salvation...you already have. There's NO HOPE in your gospel.

I think this is important and will answer each and every post of yours.

Your first paragraph. The bible says in many places that we are to continue in our belief. Try Colossians 1:21

You say in your Christian life there have been times when your faith was shaken to the ground.
Well, welcome to the club. I never posted Hebrews 6.
First of all, a lot of people get mad at God and think in their mind that they cannot trust Him anymore. This is a MIND condition. This is our human side not understanding what a loving God is doing. It's normal and happens to everyone except saints (real saints).
This is different from abandoning God. This is a matter of the heart. Real abandonment of God is difficult once you have known Him. John 6:68 Apparently there's some difficulty here in understanding the word "abandon."

Why is there no hope in my gospel? My hope is in Jesus. If Jesus is true, I have hope.
I met the Lord when I was 28 (about). Many years ago Cygnus. I've been through life, I have problems. I've been upset with God many times. This is not abandoning Him. In fact, sometimes it's made my relationship to Him stronger.

Maybe you need to believe that you cannot lose salvation because you're worried that you might be mad at God one day, or because your faith is shaken to the ground. Did Thomas have faith enough not to doubt? He lived with Jesus for over 3 years. You don't need to have this fear of losing your salvation and thus having to believe in OSAS. It's not an easy thing to do. But it makes more sense to understand that you can. It makes more sense because it makes you be MORE secure. What if the OSAS people are wrong? You abandon God, go on your merry way, and then find out when it's too late (on the other side) that you never should have abandoned Jesus and that you should have stayed close to Him. Abide in Him. By your WILL. You WILL to be with Him. It has nothing to do with feelings.

You seem to have a gentle spirit and I don't mind spending this time.
You'll find I don't usually do this.
I really hope it makes you consider your position.

Wondering

 

[ChristDependent]

That's it?
Is there a part two?
Please explain how John 3:18-21 testifies to how God foreknew who is searching for Him.
It comes right after John 3:16
THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH SHALL NOT PERISH.

WHOSOEVER.

Wondering
Edit: I don't really mean it about explaining John 3:18-21...
For me it ends here...

To understand my point of view, I am saying that our believing in Him is a work of the Father Himself.

John 3:16-21 shows why unbelievers do not believe in Him because they love their evil deeds rather than come to the light to be reproved of them. God the Father knows this. This is why He does not draw them unto the Son to reveal His Son to them.

Below is an example of the Lord in leading His disciples away from preaching in one part of the country to instead go to another part of the country to preach the gospel to those seeking Him.

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

Even Jesus had given this warning.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

God made a promise that those that seek Him, those He foreknew that would believe in His Son so that their evil deeds may be reproved by Him, He will draw them unto the Son to reveal His Son to them. Read John 3:21 with His wisdom to see that truth in His words as obviously, we would be led by Him not to bother any one that does not want to hear the gospel any more, but rather go to those that do want to hear it, and learn more of Him.

 

[ChristDependent]

And you kinda missed the point altogether.

There is no insulation from ANY of Gods Judgments or any of Gods Words of Life. ALL His Words are for all believers and for our life. Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 are abundantly clear on this count.

I showed, using Paul and the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh, how ADVERSE JUDGMENTS apply. And yes, they DO apply to ALL believers, ultimately to our benefit.

The Spirit IS and will remain factually against and contrary to the flesh. Gal. 5:17

There is therefore, adversity to the flesh from the Spirit. They really are "against and contrary to each others." Just as Paul said and shows.

Believers all tend crowd themselves on one side of the deck of scripture and ignore the other side, and that is a working of their flesh, not being able to "see itself" for what it is.

Unrepentant believers and even former believers will not be going to the lake of fire. John 6:39 Unless they repent, they will however, miss out in being of the firstfruits which will occur at the pre trib rapture.

 

[ChristDependent]

Unrepentant believers and even former believers will not be going to the lake of fire. John 6:39 Unless they repent, they will however, miss out in being of the firstfruits which will occur at the pre trib rapture.

It is that point I am addressing as you seem to tie OSAS into that.

 

[ChristDependent]

You presented a lot of verses...but I don't see where you answered my post.
Just because atrue christian may be deceived...it doesn't mean they lose their salvation.

True, but I was explaining that unless they repent, they will miss out of the firstfruits of the resurrection at the pre trib rapture event and be left behind to be received later on after the great tribulation, because I agree with you that they are still saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

To understand my point of view, I am saying that our believing in Him is a work of the Father Himself.

John 3:16-21 shows why unbelievers do not believe in Him because they love their evil deeds rather than come to the light to be reproved of them. God the Father knows this. This is why He does not draw them unto the Son to reveal His Son to them.

Below is an example of the Lord in leading His disciples away from preaching in one part of the country to instead go to another part of the country to preach the gospel to those seeking Him.

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

Even Jesus had given this warning.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

God made a promise that those that seek Him, those He foreknew that would believe in His Son so that their evil deeds may be reproved by Him, He will draw them unto the Son to reveal His Son to them. Read John 3:21 with His wisdom to see that truth in His words as obviously, we would be led by Him not to bother any one that does not want to hear the gospel any more, but rather go to those that do want to hear it, and learn more of Him.

I'm in a different time zone and it's really late here.
I'll say this. In every religion man seeks to find God. Man reaches up to God. In Christianity it's God that reaches down to man. He's been reaching down every way He can. Finally He sent His only Son. The first action is by God. That action requires a response.

But the way you explain it is double predestination which I do not adhere to and I gave my reason.
I could not worship a God who decided from the beginning of time which of His creations He would choose to save and be in heaven with Him and which He would choose to throw into hell, whatever that is or wherever that is. I know God is not there. I've already said that God is Love. Could a loving God do this? Arbitrarily throw people into hell? I hear often that it's not God who sends us to hell - we send ourselves. Well, with Calvinism, it's GOD who sends us to hell. Is this a God YOU want to worship?

We're NOT to cast our pearls before swine. Did you ever try to witness and the person starts treating you like you're crazy or dumb? It's time to stop. You're throwing your pearls at swine. Is this because God doesn't WANT to save that person AFAYC? Doesn't God desire that none should perish? If the disciples were told by the Holy Spirit not to preach in an area, there must have been a good reason - NOT because the people would not accept the gospel. There were many dangers back then. Did you ever notice how Paul tended to go to civilized cities? I actually saw a little hill in Athens from where he likely preached - the Agora'. Sorry about that. It was nice.

I'd also like to tell you that the tribulation does not interest me. If you witness by using the tribulation, you'll quickly lose your audience. There is no consensus on the chronology and some theologians do not accept the rapture. I don't sit in a room reading the bible all by myself, so I tend to heed theologians.

If you really want to go through some scripture, you could post again for tomorrow.

Wondering

 

[ChristDependent]

I'm in a different time zone and it's really late here.
I'll say this. In every religion man seeks to find God. Man reaches up to God. In Christianity it's God that reaches down to man. He's been reaching down every way He can. Finally He sent His only Son. The first action is by God. That action requires a response.

But the way you explain it is double predestination which I do not adhere to and I gave my reason.
I could not worship a God who decided from the beginning of time which of His creations He would choose to save and be in heaven with Him and which He would choose to throw into hell, whatever that is or wherever that is. I know God is not there. I've already said that God is Love. Could a loving God do this? Arbitrarily throw people into hell? I hear often that it's not God who sends us to hell - we send ourselves. Well, with Calvinism, it's GOD who sends us to hell. Is this a God YOU want to worship?

God foreknew that His creation wants to know what is outside the will of God. Now we know. Sin is working death in our bodies and working in driving us further & further from God where death will bring about its culmination of being separated from all that is good, just, holy, and God; hell.

John 3:18 says we, as sinners, were already condemned as Jesus is not sent to condemn the world, but that we might be saved through Him.

God foreknew that some will hate Him and do wrong to their own soul and love death as a result;

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

But He also foreknew that some will love Him and want to be saved by Him. These be the ones that do truth which is why God would reveal His Son to them so that they may believe as our believing is a work of God.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So this explanation above is for why they did not believe even in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We're NOT to cast our pearls before swine. Did you ever try to witness and the person starts treating you like you're crazy or dumb? It's time to stop. You're throwing your pearls at swine.

Is this because God doesn't WANT to save that person AFAYC?

Nope. We can not make that judgment, because some sinners may believe later on in life, and they have too. It's just that at that moment, they are not seeking Him at all.

Doesn't God desire that none should perish?

The desire is true for those He foreknew that would want to believe in His Son to be saved.

If the disciples were told by the Holy Spirit not to preach in an area, there must have been a good reason - NOT because the people would not accept the gospel. There were many dangers back then. Did you ever notice how Paul tended to go to civilized cities? I actually saw a little hill in Athens from where he likely preached - the Agora'. Sorry about that. It was nice.

I am sure the reason was that God knew at that time, that sinners in Macedonia were seeking Him then.

I'd also like to tell you that the tribulation does not interest me. If you witness by using the tribulation, you'll quickly lose your audience. There is no consensus on the chronology and some theologians do not accept the rapture. I don't sit in a room reading the bible all by myself, so I tend to heed theologians.

If you really want to go through some scripture, you could post again for tomorrow.

Wondering

I witness the coming great tribulation and the pre trib rapture that comes before it. We are in everyday tribulation now.

The only reason I mention it is because a lot of believers are misapplying verses to imply that OSAS is false.

 

[smaller]

Unrepentant believers and even former believers will not be going to the lake of fire.

I've never said otherwise.

John 6:39 Unless they repent, they will however, miss out in being of the firstfruits which will occur at the pre trib rapture.

That's why the trib discussions should be viewed separately. Eschatology has it's own forum. I've seen the "threats" you pose above to (unrepentant/fallen) believers from a few camps. It's a common ploy to obtain submissions to various positions. Believe like "this" or you'll get left behind.

I don't buy any of those angles. It's similar to threatening believers with eternal hell with a modern twist. Threats never seem to end in the christian sphere.

 

[MarkT]

Oh my. We're like fish.
God throws a net down. Mathew 4:19
Jesus picks the first Apostles. He tells them they will become fishers of men.
I think they went unto all the world and preached the good news. The persons they preached the good news to could either accept or deny. This involves a CHOICE.

Can a man choose to believe what he doesn't believe? If a man believes, it is not by choice.

Paul said, "For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. Romans 10:10 And then he warns, "Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. Hebrews 3:12

So it depends on the heart, and like I said before, God gives men a believing heart to believe, and a spirit of understanding to understand.

So if a man believes, it is because God causes the belief. Truly belief is the work of God.
John 6:29
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

The other teaching is that the kingdom of heaven is like a net; it captures the good and the bad, and at the end of the age, angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Mt. 13:47

There are all kinds of believers, good and bad; they are all captured in the net. Some denominations allow and even promote evil. So Jesus said, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ Mt. 7:21-23

Mathew 18:13-23 The Parable of the Sower
What was sown in the heart. The heart in the O.T. is what was believed to contain understanding. So the word is sown in the heart OR understood by the person hearing it. Satan will always cause us to doubt. And, in some cases, it works - as it did in this case. The person heard the word and did not believe. In verse 23, instead, the person heard the word and understood it and believed it. Are you saying God forced that person to believe?

We were made to believe so I wouldn't say God forced the person to believe. The potter has a right over the clay. Romans 9:21

I never said God cannot accomplish something without our consent. That's blasphemy. Or close to it.
Salvation belongs to God. Right. But we have to want it. If my friend doesn't want to be saved, will she be saved by force?
Revelation 3:20 Jesus is knocking on the door. He's waiting for the door to be opened. He's not going to break in by force.

If your friend doesn't want to be saved, she won't be saved.

Discipleship is a calling and not a choice. Discipleship is a calling because the power of the Holy Spirit is necessary to be a disciple. I agree. But how can I be a disciple if I don't choose to be?

If you choose not to be a disciple then you won't be a disciple.

Eternal life is a gift. What do you do with a gift? You ACCEPT it. It's offered to you, but you have to take it and open it and accept it. If someone hands me a gift, I could refuse it too, I don't HAVE TO accept it.
John 1:12
Acts 16:31a

I'm hearing here that I must believe - not that God is going to force me to believe.

Wondering

God doesn't offer eternal life. He grants it provide you keep his commandments. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’ Rev. 2:7