Once saved..always saved....It's right here.

[ChristDependent]

I think you're regenerated first...this then gives you the ability to believe and repent. Prior to our regeneration we were dead in our sins and trespasses and couldn't repent or believe.

Well, that is deep, but I believe we can discern the answer to this question now.

Since we do not receive the promise of the Holy Ghost until after we believe as per the example of the Gentiles after hearing Peter speak and then believing what he had just said was when they had received the promise, and thus faith comes by the hearing of the gospel and then regeneration. So it is when they receive the promise of the Spirit is when regeneration comes and not before we believe.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:....40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[MarkT]

So you think Adam had some decision in being made? God CREATED Adam, He forced Adam to come into existence. If I CAUSE you to get that book, I just FORCED you to get it. If I cause something to happen, by necessity I'm forcing it to happen.

He gave us ears to hear and eyes to see and he gave us a believing heart to believe. So God doesn't have to make us believe. He gave us a believing heart when he made us. So when the word came, we believed.

Pharaoh is a favorite subject it seems to bring up the matter of how He's sovereign.
We're back to pulling verses out to prove something,
Check out Jeremiah 18:1-12 and also Isaiah 64:8
I love Isaiah 64:8 Start on 64:1 It explains a lot. See verse 4 and 5.

Okay. So we cannot see the big picture. How's this:

God decided to make humans.
Who knows why.
He decided to make some good humans and some bad humans.
He decided that the good ones would go to heaven and the bad ones would go to hell.
We don't know for sure HOW He decides which are to be good and which are to be bad. He might have a set of dice.
For some strange reason, He decides to kill His own Son so the already good and saved ones could go to heaven.
Even though they were going there anyway, since He had already decided they were going to heaven.
Those poor bad ones heard about God, but there was no way He'd allow them into the group with the good ones. They were destined from the beginning to hell, and to hell they would go.
But the good ones loved their God. Even though they KNEW He was sending a whole bunch of people to hell - and even though they couldn't know why.
They were just happy that THEY were THE CHOSEN FEW and would get to be with God. Too bad for the bad ones.

Do you like that MarkT?
This is the God you're serving?
There's not much more to say - but you could think about it seriously for a while.
How do you know for sure YOU'RE saved? I keep hearing about people who fall away and were never really saved to begin with.
Also, did you ever study church history? Do you know that your beliefs are nowhere to be found until just recently? For 1,500 years this doctrine of yours was not even considered.
Look at the big picture.

W

He didn't make good humans and bad humans. The humans he made turned bad. Even Israel turned bad. All the day God held out his hand to a rebellious people, a people who reviled him and provoked him to his face continually. Isa. 65: 2-3 We know his word, 'I will repay'. Isa. 65:6

 

[GodsGrace]

He gave us ears to hear and eyes to see and he gave us a believing heart to believe. So God doesn't have to make us believe. He gave us a believing heart when he made us. So when the word came, we believed.

He didn't make good humans and bad humans. The humans he made turned bad. Even Israel turned bad. All the day God held out his hand to a rebellious people, a people who reviled him and provoked him to his face continually. Isa. 65: 2-3 We know his word, 'I will repay'. Isa. 65:6

MARKT !!

We agree!


I could log off happy.


Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

That's the OSAS escape hatch. "Oh, that Christian fell away from faith and lost his salvation?" "No, That just means he wasn't genuinely saved." So,you either are saved and stay saved, or you were never really saved to begin with. No lose logic.

That type of OSAS "escape hatch" is, of course, a false one.

However, OSAS doesn't need any kind of hatch to escape from. Because of what the Bible plainly says about eternal security.

First, Paul wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. So the only question is this: what are God's gifts?

Well, Paul actually described several of them, and right IN that same epistle.
In 1:11, he mentioned spiritual gifts, which come from God (Acts 10:45).
In 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 he mentioned justification, which is from God (Rom 3:30).
In 6:23 he mentioned eternal life, and he specifically says it's a free gift of God.

Outside Romans, Paul described salvation itself as a gift of God in Eph 2:8.

Finally, there is nothing in Rom 11 to suggest that Paul excluded eternal life from v.29.

So, the obvious conclusion is that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

How can that not be eternal security?

But Paul didn't stop there. In Eph 1:13-14 he spoke about believers being sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise for God's own possession (which are believers). And we know from Eph 4:30 that this promise is for the day of redemption.

So believers are promised for the day of redemption. How can that not be eternal security?

Finally, Paul wrote 1 Thess 5:4-10.

Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

 

[MarkT]

MARKT !!

We agree!


I could log off happy.


Wondering

Alright!

But let me clarify my belief. God is a living God. You can ask in Jesus name. You can reason with Him. Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord

I believe in the impossible and I believe in possibilities. I believe all things are possible with God. So even though everything is made for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble, Pr.16:4, I believe the wicked can be turned from their wickedness, God willing. I believe in possibilities and I believe in the will of God

God made those men who reviled him. He also made Pharaoh, Esau, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He made the prophets, the godless, the wicked, the deniers and the haters of God. He made John the Baptist who was Elijah. He made the Jews who crucified Jesus. He made the Romans and both Herod and Ponitus Pilate, and Judas and the apostles, and they were made for their purpose to do whatever God's hand and his plan predestined. "for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servantJesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever thy hand and thy plan had predestined to take place. 29 Acts 4:27-28

 

[GodsGrace]

Alright!

But let me clarify my belief. God is a living God. You can ask in Jesus name. You can reason with Him. Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord

I believe in the impossible and I believe in possibilities. I believe all things are possible with God. So even though everything is made for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble, Pr.16:4, I believe the wicked can be turned from their wickedness, God willing. I believe in possibilities and I believe in the will of God

God made those men who reviled him. He also made Pharaoh, Esau, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He made the prophets, the godless, the wicked, the deniers and the haters of God. He made John the Baptist who was Elijah. He made the Jews who crucified Jesus. He made the Romans and both Herod and Ponitus Pilate, and Judas and the apostles, and they were made for their purpose to do whatever God's hand and his plan predestined. "for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servantJesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever thy hand and thy plan had predestined to take place. 29 Acts 4:27-28

I hate when I see the word "BUT"...
Now we're out of OSAS which is really easy for me.
And we're into Free Will. What I call "REAL" Calvinism.

What is the use of asking in Jesus name (I assume you mean salvation) if God has already made up His mind as to whom He will save? How do I reason WITH GOD, If God has already determined whom He will save, who He wants to see in heaven with Him and who He prefers to throw into a dark and ugly pit with satan and his crew? Do you believe satan won't be there? Do you believe in annnihilation? How else could such a God be accepted? It would be unbearable to me. I would no longer be able to be a Christian.

I'll tell you this. I know that recnciling man's free will with God's sovereignty and/or Providence is not an easy task. But because one doesn't understand such big issues, does not mean that doctrine should be introduced that makes no sense.

I've been asking another poster to please supply documentation that Calvin's proposals were even considered in the early Church. I can assure you they were not. So you can honestly believe that it took 1,500 years for someone, J.C., to figure out Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace ad Perseverance of the Saints. If you can find some proof that this was even considered before 1,500 AD, I'll be happy to get into the free will problem.

I do refer, again, to my post number 218.

I guess we don't agree.

Wondering

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I hate when I see the word "BUT"...
Now we're out of OSAS which is really easy for me.
And we're into Free Will. What I call "REAL" Calvinism.

What is the use of asking in Jesus name (I assume you mean salvation) if God has already made up His mind as to whom He will save? How do I reason WITH GOD, If God has already determined whom He will save, who He wants to see in heaven with Him and who He prefers to throw into a dark and ugly pit with satan and his crew? Do you believe satan won't be there? Do you believe in annnihilation? How else could such a God be accepted? It would be unbearable to me. I would no longer be able to be a Christian.

I'll tell you this. I know that recnciling man's free will with God's sovereignty and/or Providence is not an easy task. But because one doesn't understand such big issues, does not mean that doctrine should be introduced that makes no sense.

I've been asking another poster to please supply documentation that Calvin's proposals were even considered in the early Church. I can assure you they were not. So you can honestly believe that it took 1,500 years for someone, J.C., to figure out Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace ad Perseverance of the Saints. If you can find some proof that this was even considered before 1,500 AD, I'll be happy to get into the free will problem.

I do refer, again, to my post number 218.

I guess we don't agree.

Wondering

So I'm confused.
Are you OSAS or are you non-OSAS?

 

[GodsGrace]

So I'm confused.
Are you OSAS or are you non-OSAS?

I'm non-OSAS.
I believe one could lose salvation.
In the same way you come to salvation, you can walk away from it.
You come by believing in Jesus.
You leave by no longer believing in Him.
If you don't believe in Him, what is there to save you?

To be able to believe in OSAS, you also have to believe that we have no free will.
If I have no free will to abandon Christianity, it means I had no free will to embrace it.
That means that GOD chooses whom He will to save and whom He will to condemn. Could you serve such a God? I believe God desires to save ALL. 1 Timothy 2:3

If my husband or your wife could not come to the saving faith of the Lord, does this mean that God does NOT wish to save them? This is a horrible thought to me and I can plainly state that this cannot be a God I could serve - in the sense that I'm sure we all "sacrifice" to serve God. Here we are with a flesh and a spirit which battle each other. I must believe that this battle is for a loving God and one who will not condemn a person to hell for some arbitrary reason; which is the case if one believes in eternal security.

If you could show me how I could believe in eternal security and still believe in free will, I would be very interested. Unfortunately, I believe one goes hand in hand with the other. OSAS = NO FREE WILL. Would you agree?

I hate to go further unless I know your understanding of the above (OSAS = NO FREE WILL)
I'll just say that I've been asking a poster to show where this concept is ever considered in the first 1,500 years of Christianity. He hasn't replied, and I know he won't be able to, because the concept did not come into existence until John Calvin proposed this in the 16th century. How could this be? Is it gradual revelation or is it that this teaching makes no sense?

It's unfortunate that when Jesus spoke and when Paul and the others wrote their letters, they had no idea this concept could ever be conceived or they would have been much more careful in their wording. The entire N.T. begs us to be careful and not end up on the wide path that leads to destruction. Then we like to say that it's BELIEF in Jesus that keeps us from that wide path. Then we like to say that even if WE DON'T BELIEVE in HIM anymore - we're still on that path. Does this make sense? No. It doesn't.

If you care to, please answer regarding how one could believe in OSAS and still have free will. OR, do you believe we do NOT have free will. In which case all my feelings re an unjust God remain.

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm non-OSAS.
I believe one could lose salvation.
In the same way you come to salvation, you can walk away from it.
You come by believing in Jesus.
You leave by no longer believing in Him.

What verse or verses actually tells us that ceasing to believe results in loss of salvation? I'm amazed at all the assumption from those who think that salvation can be lost.

If you don't believe in Him, what is there to save you?

Not a "what", but "Who". Jesus Himself. This is what He said: and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28

To be able to believe in OSAS, you also have to believe that we have no free will.
If I have no free will to abandon Christianity, it means I had no free will to embrace it.

Your conclusion is based on a false premise. That one can literally leave their salvation. No verse teaches such a thing. And OSAS has no bearing on free will at all.

Do children have the freedom to rebel against their parents? Sure. No different in the spiritual realm. Consider the prodigal SON. At no time did he lose his SONship. And his father remained his father throughout the parable.

Same in the spiritual realm. Once a child of God, always a child of God. But free to rebel…….and suffer the consequences, which the Bible calls divine discipline.

If you could show me how I could believe in eternal security and still believe in free will, I would be very interested. Unfortunately, I believe one goes hand in hand with the other. OSAS = NO FREE WILL. Would you agree?

Eternal security is taught clearly in Scripture.

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).
5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm non-OSAS.
I believe one could lose salvation.
In the same way you come to salvation, you can walk away from it.
You come by believing in Jesus.
You leave by no longer believing in Him.
If you don't believe in Him, what is there to save you?

To be able to believe in OSAS, you also have to believe that we have no free will.
If I have no free will to abandon Christianity, it means I had no free will to embrace it.
That means that GOD chooses whom He will to save and whom He will to condemn. Could you serve such a God? I believe God desires to save ALL. 1 Timothy 2:3

If my husband or your wife could not come to the saving faith of the Lord, does this mean that God does NOT wish to save them? This is a horrible thought to me and I can plainly state that this cannot be a God I could serve - in the sense that I'm sure we all "sacrifice" to serve God. Here we are with a flesh and a spirit which battle each other. I must believe that this battle is for a loving God and one who will not condemn a person to hell for some arbitrary reason; which is the case if one believes in eternal security.

If you could show me how I could believe in eternal security and still believe in free will, I would be very interested. Unfortunately, I believe one goes hand in hand with the other. OSAS = NO FREE WILL. Would you agree?

I hate to go further unless I know your understanding of the above (OSAS = NO FREE WILL)
I'll just say that I've been asking a poster to show where this concept is ever considered in the first 1,500 years of Christianity. He hasn't replied, and I know he won't be able to, because the concept did not come into existence until John Calvin proposed this in the 16th century. How could this be? Is it gradual revelation or is it that this teaching makes no sense?

It's unfortunate that when Jesus spoke and when Paul and the others wrote their letters, they had no idea this concept could ever be conceived or they would have been much more careful in their wording. The entire N.T. begs us to be careful and not end up on the wide path that leads to destruction. Then we like to say that it's BELIEF in Jesus that keeps us from that wide path. Then we like to say that even if WE DON'T BELIEVE in HIM anymore - we're still on that path. Does this make sense? No. It doesn't.

If you care to, please answer regarding how one could believe in OSAS and still have free will. OR, do you believe we do NOT have free will. In which case all my feelings re an unjust God remain.

Wondering

I'm a man of few words.
Reflect on this;

Psalm 23:6b;
"...and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".

Question; How does David know that he will dwell in the House of the Lord forever?
OSAS.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm a man of few words.
Reflect on this;

Psalm 23:6b;
"...and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".

Question; How does David know that he will dwell in the House of the Lord forever?
OSAS.

You're not a chatterbox?

I will also dwell in the house of my Lord forever.
It is my will to do so.

"The Lord IS my shepherd..."

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

What verse or verses actually tells us that ceasing to believe results in loss of salvation? I'm amazed at all the assumption from those who think that salvation can be lost.

Not a "what", but "Who". Jesus Himself. This is what He said: and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28

Your conclusion is based on a false premise. That one can literally leave their salvation. No verse teaches such a thing. And OSAS has no bearing on free will at all.

Do children have the freedom to rebel against their parents? Sure. No different in the spiritual realm. Consider the prodigal SON. At no time did he lose his SONship. And his father remained his father throughout the parable.

Same in the spiritual realm. Once a child of God, always a child of God. But free to rebel…….and suffer the consequences, which the Bible calls divine discipline.

Eternal security is taught clearly in Scripture.

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).
5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

Maybe it's clear to you FreeGrace. But it sure wasn't clear to the FOUNDING FATHERS of the Christian faith.
I'm amazed that YOU could assume that you will be saved forever, no matter what you will in the future.

I'm amazed that YOU could believe that GOD would willingly DESTINE someone to hell.

I know the difference between WHO and WHAT.
In the O.T. and also in the N.T. some were looking to other WAYS to be saved. That's a WHAT not a WHO.Paul said many times not to look for other WHATS to be saved. As I'm sure you know since you're well- versed in scripture.

And since we're both well-versed in scripture, I ask that you forgive me, but I believe the time has come for me to leave this thread.

There is nothing further I can add to what I've already posted from the beginning.

In Christ
Wondering

 

[smaller]

I'm a man of few words.
Reflect on this;

Psalm 23:6b;
"...and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".

Question; How does David know that he will dwell in the House of the Lord forever?
OSAS.

Good pickup there Rollo. I've never seen that weigh in on the subject.

Added to arsenal of scriptural fact. Thanks!

 

[FreeGrace]

Maybe it's clear to you FreeGrace. But it sure wasn't clear to the FOUNDING FATHERS of the Christian faith.
I'm amazed that YOU could assume that you will be saved forever, no matter what you will in the future.

I provided 5 reasons for believing that the Bible teaches eternal security in post #269. The 4th reason actually dealt with "what you will do in the future".

So, I don't assume anything. I believe what the Bible teaches. And I gave 5 reasons for that.

I'm amazed that YOU could believe that GOD would willingly DESTINE someone to hell.

I'm amazed that you think I do believe that. I don't believe that. So you don't have to be amazed.

 

[smaller]

You're not a chatterbox?

I will also dwell in the house of my Lord forever.
It is my will to do so.

"The Lord IS my shepherd..."

Wondering

Actually not. The day we accepted Christ we eliminated ourselves from the equations, whether we realized it then, or now for that matter. We are no longer our own, but His.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

The wills of dead believers won't have any roles to the contrary of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good pickup there Rollo. I've never seen that weigh in on the subject.

Added to arsenal of scriptural fact. Thanks!

You can add it to your arsenal Smaller, but I've already given the counterpoint, which you could also keep under your hat: The Lord IS my shepherd.

PRESENT TENSE.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

What verse or verses actually tells us that ceasing to believe results in loss of salvation? I'm amazed at all the assumption from those who think that salvation can be lost.
Not a "what", but "Who". Jesus Himself. This is what He said: and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28
Your conclusion is based on a false premise. That one can literally leave their salvation. No verse teaches such a thing. And OSAS has no bearing on free will at all.
Do children have the freedom to rebel against their parents? Sure. No different in the spiritual realm. Consider the prodigal SON. At no time did he lose his SONship. And his father remained his father throughout the parable.
Same in the spiritual realm. Once a child of God, always a child of God. But free to rebel…….and suffer the consequences, which the Bible calls divine discipline.
Eternal security is taught clearly in Scripture.
First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".
3:4 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).
And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).
5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

I'm here only to address your fifth premise:
You mean like:
Be Careful People, You Can Lose Your Salvation!

Of course there's no such verse. The apostles and all those who came after them didn't think it would be necessary! They thought it was UNDERSTOOD that salvation could be gained and lost. They didn't know John Calvin would be born way down in the future. I'm still waiting for some proof that the early church theologians even CONSIDERED OSAS. No answer yet. And there won't be any.

As for the Prodigal Son.
FreeGrace. Did you know we are all children of God? Did He not make every one of us?
Are we all going to heaven?
And that prodigal son. IF he hadn't returned home, he would have been stuck feeding those pigs and being hungry and away from his father for the rest of his life... (or eternity).

You see - HE HAD TO RETURN HOME.

Wondering
P.S. I have said that if someone could explain to me how OSAS has nothing to do with free will, I would appreciate THAT.

 

[smaller]

You can add it to your arsenal Smaller, but I've already given the counterpoint, which you could also keep under your hat: The Lord IS my shepherd.

PRESENT TENSE.

W

I doubt very much that the will of the person, once calling upon Him, will change His Intents to save, regardless of how proudly the flesh may be locked against Him later.

There is a converse or opposing working of the flesh against the Spirit, assuredly.

John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

2 Corinthians 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

1 Peter 1:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The flesh of the believers will not and can not prevail.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm here only to address your fifth premise:
You mean like:
Be Careful People, You Can Lose Your Salvation!

Of course there's no such verse. The apostles and all those who came after them didn't think it would be necessary! They thought it was UNDERSTOOD that salvation could be gained and lost. They didn't know John Calvin would be born way down in the future. I'm still waiting for some proof that the early church theologians even CONSIDERED OSAS. No answer yet. And there won't be any.

As for the Prodigal Son.
FreeGrace. Did you know we are all children of God? Did He not make every one of us?
Are we all going to heaven?
And that prodigal son. IF he hadn't returned home, he would have been stuck feeding those pigs and being hungry and away from his father for the rest of his life... (or eternity).

You see - HE HAD TO RETURN HOME.

Wondering
P.S. I have said that if someone could explain to me how OSAS has nothing to do with free will, I would appreciate THAT.

It was St Augustine that set forth TULIP, not Calvin.
Calvin promoted it as his belief and people called it Calvinism.
St. Augustine also set forth 5 main facts of the Catholic church, and the Roman Catholic church took hold of it as their own.
They are;
1. The supreme authority of the Roman church.
2. Purgatory
3. Prayers for the dead.
4. The damnation of unbaptized infants and adults.
5. Sex is sinful because depravity is inherited.

As we can see, Augustine had an influence on both Roman Catholics and protestants.
It is through Calvinism and TULIP that the birth of OSAS began.
And it has been debated by theologians ever since.
So no, it is not so new.

Considering the contradictions that modern science has introduced to the Bible, OSAS is old.
How one can consider that the Earth moves around the sun when the Bible says differently is beyond me.
Why someone would want to believe that they can go to hell after they have been saved is beyond me.
What value does Jesus Christ have if one little slip up just before death could send you to hell?
What a weak God he must be if he can't hold onto His own?

I'm glad God has revealed the true Jesus Christ to me and I am now His forever.
Amen!

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm here only to address your fifth premise:
You mean like:
Be Careful People, You Can Lose Your Salvation!

Sad, because the first 4 actually teach eternal security. #5 is only about the fact that no verse or combination of verses plainly teach loss of salvation.

Of course there's no such verse. The apostles and all those who came after them didn't think it would be necessary! They thought it was UNDERSTOOD that salvation could be gained and lost.

It really doesn't matter what they thought. The writers of the NT were inspired by the Holy Spirit. What they wrote was truth, which I've shown from points #1-4. They all taught eternal security.

They didn't know John Calvin would be born way down in the future.

Totally immaterial what he thought either. The only thing that counts is what Scripture says. And points #1-4 teach eternal security. Clearly.

I'm still waiting for some proof that the early church theologians even CONSIDERED OSAS. No answer yet. And there won't be any.

Who cares what the early church theologians thought either? It's what the Bible plainly says that counts.

As for the Prodigal Son.
FreeGrace. Did you know we are all children of God? Did He not make every one of us?

I speak only of children because of faith in Christ, from Jn 1:12 and Gal 3:26.

1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

No other "kind" of son.

Are we all going to heaven?{/QUOTE]
Nope. Only the children of God through faith in Christ.

And that prodigal son. IF he hadn't returned home, he would have been stuck feeding those pigs and being hungry and away from his father for the rest of his life... (or eternity).

Pure assumption. The issue of the parable is fellowship in time; when we are on earth. Fellowship is guaranteed in eternity.

You see - HE HAD TO RETURN HOME.

What evidence do you have to re-interpret Jesus' parable?

Wondering
P.S. I have said that if someone could explain to me how OSAS has nothing to do with free will, I would appreciate THAT.

I did. Now, you need to explain why one would think that OSAS has anything to do with free will.