Once saved..always saved....It's right here.

[WIP]

What value does Jesus Christ have if one little slip up just before death could send you to hell?

This is the error that I see in the understanding of those who cling to the OSAS doctrine. The non-OSAS position is not talking about a little slip-up. There's a difference between one that sins and one that flat out rejects God, denies God, repents away from God, or even goes so far as to worship and put his/her trust and faith in Satan himself.

Making the decision to no longer believe in the Lord Jesus is hardly a little slip-up. It is a repentance that goes way beyond one's daily mistakes or sins. Even those of us who love the Lord and put their faith and trust in Him are still prone to make mistakes and commit sin. God examines our heart not our head.

 

[smaller]

This is the error that I see in the understanding of those who cling to the OSAS doctrine. The non-OSAS position is not talking about a little slip-up. There's a difference between one that sins and one that flat out rejects God, denies God, repents away from God, or even goes so far as to worship and put his/her trust and faith in Satan himself.

Making the decision to no longer believe in the Lord Jesus is hardly a little slip-up. It is a repentance that goes way beyond one's daily mistakes or sins. Even those of us who love the Lord and put their faith and trust in Him are still prone to make mistakes and commit sin. God examines our heart not our head.

Nobody makes a decision to "leave the Lord." It can't be done. There is no escape and no place to escape to, not even in unbelief, as the Israelites who were saved out of Egypt found out the hard way.

Moses did not enter the promised land because of unbelief. Was Moses saved or not?

Unbelief will not be able to keep a believer from Christ, period. He never leaves us or forsakes us no matter how much blindness arrives from the contrariness of the flesh, which we all do have.

No one eliminates their contrary state. If we see that the Spirit IS contrary to and AGAINST the flesh, we should also be able to see WHY believers can again succumb to that sin, of unbelief.

But one thing is rock solid certain for any believer. There is no ESCAPE:

Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

This is the error that I see in the understanding of those who cling to the OSAS doctrine. The non-OSAS position is not talking about a little slip-up. There's a difference between one that sins and one that flat out rejects God, denies God, repents away from God, or even goes so far as to worship and put his/her trust and faith in Satan himself.

Making the decision to no longer believe in the Lord Jesus is hardly a little slip-up. It is a repentance that goes way beyond one's daily mistakes or sins. Even those of us who love the Lord and put their faith and trust in Him are still prone to make mistakes and commit sin. God examines our heart not our head.

WIP, I say this to everyone and never get an answer.
Who have you known that was truly born again that one day decided they didn't want Jesus anymore and died that way denying Jesus?
I don't believe such a person ever existed.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is the error that I see in the understanding of those who cling to the OSAS doctrine. The non-OSAS position is not talking about a little slip-up. There's a difference between one that sins and one that flat out rejects God, denies God, repents away from God, or even goes so far as to worship and put his/her trust and faith in Satan himself.

Making the decision to no longer believe in the Lord Jesus is hardly a little slip-up. It is a repentance that goes way beyond one's daily mistakes or sins. Even those of us who love the Lord and put their faith and trust in Him are still prone to make mistakes and commit sin. God examines our heart not our head.

The question remains: where does the Bible clearly warn about loss of salvation? I've presented many verses that clearly state one's security. Yet, no one has deconstructed any of those verses to show that they teach something other than eternal security.

I think the principle is simple: we are saved by grace and we are kept by that same grace.

So it's not about what we've done, but what Christ did for us.

 

[Cygnus]

The question concerning free will towards salvation comes down to this...
Why do some people choose Jesus and others not?

The answer is those that don't choose Jesus don't choose Jesus because they can't.

 

[Cygnus]

The question remains: where does the Bible clearly warn about loss of salvation? I've presented many verses that clearly state one's security. Yet, no one has deconstructed any of those verses to show that they teach something other than eternal security.

I think the principle is simple: we are saved by grace and we are kept by that same grace.

So it's not about what we've done, but what Christ did for us.

I strongly agree.
I once believed you could lose your salvation....until I realized you are saved by grace and your salvation is maintained by grace...not what you do or come to believe.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is the error that I see in the understanding of those who cling to the OSAS doctrine. The non-OSAS position is not talking about a little slip-up. There's a difference between one that sins and one that flat out rejects God, denies God, repents away from God, or even goes so far as to worship and put his/her trust and faith in Satan himself.

Making the decision to no longer believe in the Lord Jesus is hardly a little slip-up. It is a repentance that goes way beyond one's daily mistakes or sins. Even those of us who love the Lord and put their faith and trust in Him are still prone to make mistakes and commit sin. God examines our heart not our head.

Thanks WIP
Exactly what I wanted to say.
Please push the "like" button!

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

WIP, I say this to everyone and never get an answer.
Who have you known that was truly born again that one day decided they didn't want Jesus anymore and died that way denying Jesus?
I don't believe such a person ever existed.

Here's an answer:
Dr. Bianchini. He died about a month ago.
Helped me with my dying father back in 2003.
I should say Dottore.
He told me, in my living room one day when he was trying to convince me to put a feeding tube into my dying father, and I told him I believed that my father was going to a better place (because he was a believer), that he stopped believing in God because he had "seen too many things."

But I know you're going to say that he was probably never saved to begin with.

So you see Rollo, the end result is the same. One thinks he LOST his salvation
One thinks he never had it.

Same end result.
Game over.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

The question remains: where does the Bible clearly warn about loss of salvation? I've presented many verses that clearly state one's security. Yet, no one has deconstructed any of those verses to show that they teach something other than eternal security.

I think the principle is simple: we are saved by grace and we are kept by that same grace.

So it's not about what we've done, but what Christ did for us.

Of course it's by what Christ did for us.
WHY would it be by what we've done??
No need to deconstruct.
And I told you why.
You may not like the early church fathers because it's not convenient to you right now, but they DID promulgate the faith and keep it in tact, guard against heresies and put the bible together as a book. If it weren't for the early church fathers, who were the theologians of their day, we wouldn't be here on CF right now. THEY did NOT EVEN CONSIDER the doctrine of eternal security.

You neglected to explain to me how believing in eternal security DOES NOT involve the absence of free-will. HOW could I have free will, but not have the free will to NOT believe?

Do you care to explain or are we here just to exchange bible verses?

W

 

[GodsGrace]

I strongly agree.
I once believed you could lose your salvation....until I realized you are saved by grace and your salvation is maintained by grace...not what you do or come to believe.

What does what we do have anything to do with anything?

There seem to be many misunderstandings here.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

It was St Augustine that set forth TULIP, not Calvin.
Calvin promoted it as his belief and people called it Calvinism.
St. Augustine also set forth 5 main facts of the Catholic church, and the Roman Catholic church took hold of it as their own.
They are;
1. The supreme authority of the Roman church.
2. Purgatory
3. Prayers for the dead.
4. The damnation of unbaptized infants and adults.
5. Sex is sinful because depravity is inherited.

As we can see, Augustine had an influence on both Roman Catholics and protestants.
It is through Calvinism and TULIP that the birth of OSAS began.
And it has been debated by theologians ever since.
So no, it is not so new.

Considering the contradictions that modern science has introduced to the Bible, OSAS is old.
How one can consider that the Earth moves around the sun when the Bible says differently is beyond me.
Why someone would want to believe that they can go to hell after they have been saved is beyond me.
What value does Jesus Christ have if one little slip up just before death could send you to hell?
What a weak God he must be if he can't hold onto His own?

I'm glad God has revealed the true Jesus Christ to me and I am now His forever.
Amen!

Way back when, I studied some of these early church fathers. Augustine was one of them. The Catholic Church,, of which he was a member, believed and still does in limited predestination. NOT double predestination as Calvin put forth.

Also, Augustine did NOT come up with TULIP.

Easy to check out. But here's something I found on the net, easier than going through hundreds of pages of notes...

Did Augustine teach eternal security?

It is often claimed by Protestants that St. Augustine taught the Calvinist doctrine of eternal security. I disagree. Futhermore, for those who make this claim, I can't imagine they have actually read Augustine's works. Observe...

The Calvinist doctrine of eternal security can be summarized as follows...

From the Protestant source, Easton's Bible Dictionary:

Perseverance of the saints: their certain continuance in a state of grace. Once justified and regenerated, the believer can neither totally nor finally fall away from grace, but will certainly persevere therein and attain everlasting life.
Said alternatively, those who are predestined to God's grace are also predestined to eternal glory. In other words, God's grace is irresistible, and if he gives his grace to a sinner, that sinner cannot help but go to heaven. Those that go to hell are only those that God chose not to give his grace. God gives his grace only to the elect. In fact, his atonement was not for all, but only for the elect (ie. limited atonement). According to this thesis, the gift of faith is made the same as the gift of final perseverence. Catholicism rejects this teaching because the gift of faith and the gift of perseverence are separate gifts, according to the Word of God.

Calvin is quoted a saying: "Augustine is so completely of our persuasion, that if I should have to make written profession, it would be quite enough to present a composition made up entirely of excerpts from his writings."

I think Calvin must have been a poor student of Augustine. If Calvin had just stuck to quoting Augustine, he would not have been a heretic. Unfortunately, he added a mixture of erroneous assertions, which clearly contradict Augustine's teachings.

Augustine describes the gift of faith and the gift of perseverance as being two distinct gifts.

A Treatise on the Gift of Perseverance by Augustine (A.D. 428 OR 429)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm

CHAP. I --OF THE NATURE OF THE PERSEVERANCE HERE DISCOURSED OF.. I HAVE now to consider the subject of perseverance ... I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life
wherein alone there is peril of falling. Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said. ... For if any one ... have righteousness ... if even faith, and fall away, he is rightly said to have had these virtues and to have them no longer; for he was ... righteous, or he was ... believing, as long as he was so; but when he ceased to be so, he no longer is what he was. ... And the believer of one year, or of a period as much shorter as may be conceived of, if he has lived faithfully until he died, has rather had this perseverance than the believer of many years' standing, if a little time before his death he has fallen away from the stedfastness of his faith. Augustine asserted that the grace of God is like light that illuminates every man (against limited atonement):

That light, however, does not nourish the eyes of irrational birds, but the pure hearts of those men who believe in God and turn from the love of visible and temporal things to the fulfilling of His precepts. All men can do this if they will, because that light illuminates every man coming into this world. (Genesis Defended Against the Manicheans, AD 389) Grace, according to Augustine, is obviously not always efficacious grace (against irresistible grace). God gives some more grace than others (and perhaps differing kinds of grace).

ONE

 

[GodsGrace]

TWO

Augustine teaches that some of those regenerated and justified in Christ are among the elect, but some are not.


We, then, call men elected, and Christ's disciples, and God's children, because they are to be so called whom, being regenerated, we see to live piously; but they are then truly what they are called if they shall abide in that on account of which they are so called. But if they have not perseverance,--that is, if they continue not in that which they have begun to be,--they are not truly called what they are called and are not; for they are not this in the sight of Him to whom it is known what they are going to be,--that is to say, from good men, bad men. ("On Rebuke and Grace" (De Correptione et Gratis), Ch 22)

... But those who do not belong to this number of the predestinated ... [some] receive the grace of God, but they are only for a season, and do not persevere; they forsake and are forsaken. For by their free will, as they have not received the gift of perseverance, they are sent away by the righteous and hidden judgment of God (ibid, Ch. 42)

If, however, being already regenerate and justified, he relapses of his own will into an evil life, assuredly he cannot say, "I have not received," because of his own free choice to evil he has lost the grace of God, that he had received. (ibid, ch 9) Does the above sound like Augustine taught eternal security to you?

I think what Calvin did was reinvent an ancient heresy called predestinarianism, condemned by the Catholic Church in the 6th century and again in the 9th century. See here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12376b.htm

Augustine taught that those given the gift of final perseverance could not fail to persevere to the end. However, according to Augustine, so long as one is alive, one cannot know if one has the gift of perseverence. Compare this to those professing eternal security of the saved. They contend that all those given the gift of faith are saved and can never lose their salvation. They differ from Augustine substantially as they have merged the gift of faith with the gift of perseverance as though they were one and the same gift. They also insist that one can know with certainty that they are eternally saved. This contrasts with Augustine's view that even those given the gift of perseverance cannot know it while they are still alive.

Grace is never owed. It is a gift, pure and simple, which is gratuitous. The gift of grace is needed for initial conversion as well as perseverance in faith unto final glory. That's what Augustine insisted upon. However, that is not quite the same as saying that eternal salvation comes regardless of man's free will cooperation. Man's willful cooperation is involved, although man's natural deservedness is not.

For example, we can pray for God's saving grace. God owes nothing by our prayers, but it seems God desires for us to pray nonetheless, and if it be in accord with His will, the faithful believe that He answers our prayers, not as something owed, but as a gratuitous gift.

Augustine taught that a sinner's prayers may be rewarded with the grace of justification and enlightenment, if that be in accord with God's will:

For God does listen to sinner too. If God did not listen to sinners it would have been all in vain for the publican to cast down his eyes to the ground and stike his breast saying: 'Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner.' And that confession merited justification, just as the blind man merited enlightenment. (Homilies on John,44, 13] In speaking of the gift of perseverance, Augustine asserted that it too can be given in response to prayer:


This gift of [perseverance from] God, therefore, can be obtained by supplication (Gift of Perseverance, 6, 10)

There are some, morevover, who either pray not at all or pray coldly, because they know from the Lord's having said it that God knows what is necessary for us even before we ask it of Him. Must the truth of this statement be given up or is it to be supposed that it should be deleted from the gospel on account of such peoplel? On the contrary, while it is a fact that God prepares some things to be given even to those who do not pray, such as the beginning of faith, and other things not to be given except to those who pray for them, such as perseverance to the end, certainly one who thinks that he has this of himself does not pray to have it. We must beware, then, lest, while we fear that exhortation may grow cool, prayer be extinguished and presumption advanced. (ibid., 16, 39)Augustine seems to insist that all the just (those given the saving grace of regeneration) are able to persevere if they will it:
The excuse would seem more just of those who say: "We did not receive hearing," than those who say "We did not recieve perseverance," because reply can be made: "Man, in what you heard and kept, in that much you could have persevered if you had will" (Admonition and Grace, 7, 11)

God, therefore, gave man a good will, because He made him in that will when He made him upright (i.e., justified or regenerated). He gave man assistance (i.e. saving grace) without which man could not continue in the will even if he would; but that he would, God left to his free choice. Man was able, therefore, to continue if he would, because the assistance was not lacking whereby he was able, and without which he would not be able, to persevere in holding to the good that he might will. But because he willed not to continue, certainly the blame is his whose merit it would have been if he had willed to continue. (ibid., 11, 32)
Whatever one thinks of Augustines view of predestination, it seems clear to me that his view was "once saved not always saved" coupled with "no one can know they are among the elect while they are still alive." This is opposed to "eternal security" taught by Calvinists. In my opinion, Calvin, therefore, did not merely take Augustine into another direction, but took Augustine into an opposing direction.

 

[FreeGrace]

The question concerning free will towards salvation comes down to this...
Why do some people choose Jesus and others not?

The answer is those that don't choose Jesus don't choose Jesus because they can't.

Why not? Please answer from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

Of course it's by what Christ did for us.
WHY would it be by what we've done??

Well, just look at all the posts by all the conditional security folk. They have given all kinds of reasons why salvation can be lost by WHAT WE DO. Or stop doing.

You may not like the early church fathers because it's not convenient to you right now, but they DID promulgate the faith and keep it in tact, guard against heresies and put the bible together as a book.

It's not a matter of inconvenience. It's a matter of relevance. I don't take my cues from the early church fathers. I take my cues from what the Bible says.

If it weren't for the early church fathers, who were the theologians of their day, we wouldn't be here on CF right now. THEY did NOT EVEN CONSIDER the doctrine of eternal security.

Again, I don't care what they considered or not. I care what the Bible says. And Paul the apostle clearly did consider the doctrine of eternal security. So, let's once again examine what he said about the subject.

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".
3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).
5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

The 1st, 2nd and 4th points are all from Paul.

You neglected to explain to me how believing in eternal security DOES NOT involve the absence of free-will. HOW could I have free will, but not have the free will to NOT believe?

Of course you have the free will to not believe. Why do you think I didn't think that?

Do you care to explain or are we here just to exchange bible verses?
W

I did. Now please answer why you thought I didn't think that?

And, if Paul and Jesus weren't teaching eternal security, just what were they teaching in the points I just gave you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, just look at all the posts by all the conditional security folk. They have given all kinds of reasons why salvation can be lost by WHAT WE DO. Or stop doing.

It's not a matter of inconvenience. It's a matter of relevance. I don't take my cues from the early church fathers. I take my cues from what the Bible says.

Again, I don't care what they considered or not. I care what the Bible says. And Paul the apostle clearly did consider the doctrine of eternal security. So, let's once again examine what he said about the subject.

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".
3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).
5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

The 1st, 2nd and 4th points are all from Paul.

Of course you have the free will to not believe. Why do you think I didn't think that?

I did. Now please answer why you thought I didn't think that?

And, if Paul and Jesus weren't teaching eternal security, just what were they teaching in the points I just gave you.

THIS is your explanation of how I could have free will and yet not decide to stop believing?:
"Of course you have the free will to not believe. Why do you think I didn't think that?"

So once I believe this free will disappears and I no longer have free will to change my mind?

Here's HOW you lose salvation:

I'M LOST ..... I BELIEVE.....I'M SAVED.....I DON'T BELIEVE ANYMORE ......I'M LOST.

Please answer the highlighted and underlined. I'm not here to exchange scriptures but to understand your position.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

FreeGrace
I just read your 5 points.
Easy.
Please answer my question so I could understand you better and then...

W

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Here's an answer:
Dr. Bianchini. He died about a month ago.
Helped me with my dying father back in 2003.
I should say Dottore.
He told me, in my living room one day when he was trying to convince me to put a feeding tube into my dying father, and I told him I believed that my father was going to a better place (because he was a believer), that he stopped believing in God because he had "seen too many things."

But I know you're going to say that he was probably never saved to begin with.

So you see Rollo, the end result is the same. One thinks he LOST his salvation
One thinks he never had it.

Same end result.
Game over.

W

No it's not.
One can think they have salvation and not have it.
Why can't it be the opposite also.

I use to play this game with an atheist who use to drive everyone nuts on this forum.
He insisted one must be able to reason God or he could never believe.

If you choose your line of reasoning, then no one is going to change your mind and it's really a total waste of my time talking to you about it.
And that's why over the years I seldom get into these debates anymore.

 

[MarkT]

I hate when I see the word "BUT"...
Now we're out of OSAS which is really easy for me.
And we're into Free Will. What I call "REAL" Calvinism.

What is the use of asking in Jesus name (I assume you mean salvation) if God has already made up His mind as to whom He will save? How do I reason WITH GOD, If God has already determined whom He will save, who He wants to see in heaven with Him and who He prefers to throw into a dark and ugly pit with satan and his crew? Do you believe satan won't be there? Do you believe in annnihilation? How else could such a God be accepted? It would be unbearable to me. I would no longer be able to be a Christian.

I'll tell you this. I know that recnciling man's free will with God's sovereignty and/or Providence is not an easy task. But because one doesn't understand such big issues, does not mean that doctrine should be introduced that makes no sense.

I've been asking another poster to please supply documentation that Calvin's proposals were even considered in the early Church. I can assure you they were not. So you can honestly believe that it took 1,500 years for someone, J.C., to figure out Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace ad Perseverance of the Saints. If you can find some proof that this was even considered before 1,500 AD, I'll be happy to get into the free will problem.

I do refer, again, to my post number 218.

I guess we don't agree.

Wondering

No. I don't mean our salvation. We are already saved by the washing of his word and his blood. As Jesus said, "You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you". John 15:3

I'm talking about asking the Lord Jesus to save those who we love and who love us.

Remember when the Abraham reasoned with the LORD concerning Sodom and Gomorrah? Gen. 18:22-33. and Abraham said, "Wilt though destroy the righteous with the wicked?" and the LORD said if he found ten righteous people in the city he would spare the whole place for their sake.

So I believe we can ask God for our friends and our loved ones, and he will save them for our sake. For our sake Jesus said,
John 14:13
Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son;

John 14:14
if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

 

[FreeGrace]

THIS is your explanation of how I could have free will and yet not decide to stop believing?:
"Of course you have the free will to not believe. Why do you think I didn't think that?"

So once I believe this free will disappears and I no longer have free will to change my mind?

I guess we're just talking over each other. I have no idea what you have been asking. Sorry.

Here's HOW you lose salvation:

I'M LOST ..... I BELIEVE.....I'M SAVED.....I DON'T BELIEVE ANYMORE ......I'M LOST.

OK, where is this taught in Scripture? If this were true, there absolutely would be a verse or several warning of what happens when one ceases to believe.

Please answer the highlighted and underlined. I'm not here to exchange scriptures but to understand your position.

W

The answer to your very confused question is "no". Because free will doesn't disappear.

It seems you think that I believe that once a person believes, they can't change their mind. Well, that would be an error on your part, if that's what you think.

Jesus actually told us about those who "believe for a while…and then fall away". We know them as the "second soil" in the parable of the soils. Luke 8:13

And Paul noted the same thing in 1 Tim 4:1 about people falling away from the faith in later times.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace
I just read your 5 points.
Easy.
Please answer my question so I could understand you better and then...

W

Then what?