Once saved..always saved....It's right here.

[GodsGrace]

I guess we're just talking over each other. I have no idea what you have been asking. Sorry.

OK, where is this taught in Scripture? If this were true, there absolutely would be a verse or several warning of what happens when one ceases to believe.

The answer to your very confused question is "no". Because free will doesn't disappear.

It seems you think that I believe that once a person believes, they can't change their mind. Well, that would be an error on your part, if that's what you think.

Jesus actually told us about those who "believe for a while…and then fall away". We know them as the "second soil" in the parable of the soils. Luke 8:13

And Paul noted the same thing in 1 Tim 4:1 about people falling away from the faith in later times.

Okay. I have your attention. Thanks.
I'm totally confused.
First you say that there's no place in scripture with a warning to believers that they could lose their salvation and that there should certainly be some warnings if it were true. ergo I THINK you must believe that salvation CANNOT be lost.

THEN you say that free will doesn't disappear. Didn't you just say above that I cannot lose my salvation? Doesn't this mean that I have NO FREE WILL in deciding that I don't WANT it anymore?

Then you say that once a person is saved, they CAN change their mind (it would be an error on my part to believe that you thought differently).

Then you say Jesus taught that some could fall away in John 8.13 Perfect.

SO

WHAT IS IT EXACTLY THAT YOU BELIEVE???

It must be the time, I should be asleep..
Help me out here.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Then what?

Then we could discuss all the scripture you care to discuss.
But first I'd like to understand what you believe.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

No. I don't mean our salvation. We are already saved by the washing of his word and his blood. As Jesus said, "You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you". John 15:3

I'm talking about asking the Lord Jesus to save those who we love and who love us.

Remember when the Abraham reasoned with the LORD concerning Sodom and Gomorrah? Gen. 18:22-33. and Abraham said, "Wilt though destroy the righteous with the wicked?" and the LORD said if he found ten righteous people in the city he would spare the whole place for their sake.

So I believe we can ask God for our friends and our loved ones, and he will save them for our sake. For our sake Jesus said,
John 14:13
Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son;

John 14:14
if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

I see.
Sodom and Gomorrah.
If He found 10 RIGHTEOUS men, God would save the city.
RIGHTEOUS men.

Is a non-saved person righteous?

If you remember, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.

And you believe God will save our family and friends because we ask Him and for our sake. Like the wife and husband who are sanctified through each other. 1 Corinthians 7:14.

Of course this refers to the sanctity of the marriage bond. A person cannot sanctify another person. Sanctification is initiated by the grace of God working in a believer to be transformed into the image of Christ, through that grace and through works as determined by God.

I don't usually ask this, but have you read this in the bible? Is there scripture?

W

 

[MarkT]

I see.
Sodom and Gomorrah.
If He found 10 RIGHTEOUS men, God would save the city.
RIGHTEOUS men.

Is a non-saved person righteous?

If you remember, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.

And you believe God will save our family and friends because we ask Him and for our sake. Like the wife and husband who are sanctified through each other. 1 Corinthians 7:14.

Of course this refers to the sanctity of the marriage bond. A person cannot sanctify another person. Sanctification is initiated by the grace of God working in a believer to be transformed into the image of Christ, through that grace and through works as determined by God.

I don't usually ask this, but have you read this in the bible? Is there scripture?

W

Yes. The cities were destroyed. But The LORD would have spared the cities for the sake of ten. Now I say this to show Abraham reasoned with the LORD to save the cities. I'm not going beyond the word of God.

And no, I'm not talking about marriage. I'm saying we can ask Jesus to do it and he will do it for us. He said so.
John 15:7
If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.

For our sake, for the sake of righteousness, because he loves us. Take your pick.

 

[GodsGrace]

No it's not.
One can think they have salvation and not have it.
Why can't it be the opposite also.

I use to play this game with an atheist who use to drive everyone nuts on this forum.
He insisted one must be able to reason God or he could never believe.

If you choose your line of reasoning, then no one is going to change your mind and it's really a total waste of my time talking to you about it.
And that's why over the years I seldom get into these debates anymore.

It's okay if you don't care to discuss this. I'm pretty new to this and would like to understand the thinking process and beliefs of persons who feel salvation cannot be lost. This was a pretty foreign concept to me till just a few years ago and there's no one around here i could discuss this with. And you know I don't mean on these threads.

I read a little about this on the net. I don't believe you could learn a religion, or any part thereof, on the internet. Real people should explain it. I read the five points of TULIP. I cannot agree with any of it. Take just one point:
Unconditional Elelction.
"God chooses to give to some people eternal life, without looking for anything good in them as a condition for loving and saving them. "
It goes on to explain:
Before any man or woman is born -- in fact, before the world was made -- God decided who would go to heaven and who would not. Before they did good or bad, God chose some to be His people and rejected others.

Does this sound like the God of the N.T. to you? The one who went to the cross so that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

How could my mind ever be changed? I've said I could never serve such a God.

It would have been interesting to understand why you believe as you do. Is it because God is sovereign. Is it because we have no free will. Would the question of why He created us enter into the discussion. Does this explain suffering. Does He also decide who will suffer more and who less. Does He have mercy if he could destine people to hell. Is He a loving God if He could pick and choose whom He wills to be saved.

So many questions that need to be considered.
This is different from talking to an atheist. They don't really care about God, do they?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. The cities were destroyed. But The LORD would have spared the cities for the sake of ten. Now I say this to show Abraham reasoned with the LORD to save the cities. I'm not going beyond the word of God.

And no, I'm not talking about marriage. I'm saying we can ask Jesus to do it and he will do it for us. He said so.
John 15:7
If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.

For our sake, for the sake of righteousness, because he loves us. Take your pick.

I'm being sincere here.

Does this mean that if I ask God for something and I don't get it I could consider that I am NOT a righteous person and not a saved person?

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

Okay. I have your attention. Thanks.
I'm totally confused.
First you say that there's no place in scripture with a warning to believers that they could lose their salvation and that there should certainly be some warnings if it were true. ergo I THINK you must believe that salvation CANNOT be lost.

So far, so good.

THEN you say that free will doesn't disappear. Didn't you just say above that I cannot lose my salvation? Doesn't this mean that I have NO FREE WILL in deciding that I don't WANT it anymore?

My point is that free will doesn't include changing things that cannot be changed. Can you change your birth parents? Hmm? Of course you can't.

It wasn't your free will that got you saved in the first place. God saved you because you believed in His Son. And you became a child of God. Born again. Regenerated. And you CANNOT change your spiritual birth parent any more than you can change your physical birth parents.

Then you say that once a person is saved, they CAN change their mind (it would be an error on my part to believe that you thought differently).

Jesus actually told us that some "believe for a while…and then fall away" in Luke 8:13. So, yes, a believer may change their mind and cease to believe.

Then you say Jesus taught that some could fall away in John 8.13 Perfect.

SO

WHAT IS IT EXACTLY THAT YOU BELIEVE???

Just what I've been posting.

It must be the time, I should be asleep..
Help me out here.

W

Your confusion stems from the erroneous belief that one has the power to free themselves from God's hand. Which is impossible because of what Jesus said.

John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

To clarify, the words "no one" means "no person". It does NOT mean "no one else other than myself" as those who cling to conditional security seem to think.

So, if you count yourself among those called "persons", then even you cannot remove yourself from God's hand.

Consider v.29 - My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

I guess those who actually ARE "greater" than either Jesus or His Father could do that. ;)

 

[JLB]

Jesus actually told us that some "believe for a while…and then fall away" in Luke 8:13. So, yes, a believer may change their mind and cease to believe.

No longer being a believer, these have returned to being unbelievers.

 

[JLB]

Your confusion stems from the erroneous belief that one has the power to free themselves from God's hand. Which is impossible because of what Jesus said.

John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:1-2

He takes away, is a reference to God the Father.

He takes away from being in Christ, is plain and clear.

Those who were in Him, and then were removed, in up thrown into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

This one sentence completely dismantles OSAS.

I guess your only hope is to redefine what "thrown into the fire and burned" means.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

No longer being a believer, these have returned to being unbelievers.

No one has the power to undo what God has done. No one. There are no verses that indicate that anyone has such power to undo what God DID to those who have believed. No one.

Instead of mere opinions, where is the Scripture to back up your opinion?

Jesus said this: "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

Then He said this: "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand." John 10:28,29

So, who do you know who is greater than either Jesus or His Father??

The words "no one" means "no persons". Those who qualify as "persons" do NOT have such power or ability to remove themselves from either Jesus' or His Father's hand. No one.

You have provided mere opinion. I have provided clear Scripture that refutes your mere opinion.

 

[FreeGrace]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

This one sentence completely dismantles OSAS.JLB

You wish.

If one wants to dismantles OSAS, then one must specifically deal with each of the following verses, with solid explanation to prove that none of them teach eternal security, and prove what they do, in fact, teach.

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".
3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).
And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).
5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

The first 4 points demolish the "loss of salvation" idea. And the 5th point simply closes the coffin.

Unless…one can actually prove that they teach something else, and actually specify what that might be.

So, be my guest. Inform me and the thread what these verses do teach.

 

[JLB]

If one wants to dismantles OSAS, then one must specifically deal with each of the following verses, with solid explanation to prove that none of them teach eternal security, and prove what they do, in fact, teach.

Jesus stated plainly that one could in fact be removed from Him and be cast into the fire and burned.

This one sentence from Him, destroys the OSAS doctrine, which is why you listed other verses while avoiding what He plainly said.

OSAS folks must build their "theory" around these words of Jesus, while avoiding them, which you have plainly done.

You are forced to show verse's that prove a person has eternal life while being disconnected from Christ.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


All the "redefining" of biblical word definitions can not get around the plain and simple truth that there are some people who will be removed from Him, and thrown into the fire.

We have no eternal life apart from Christ.


Believers have eternal life.

Those who believe for awhile, then fall back into unbelief, are no longer believers.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Jesus stated plainly that one could in fact be removed from Him and be cast into the fire and burned.

You mean like this?

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This one sentence from Him, destroys the OSAS doctrine, which is why you listed other verses while avoiding what He plainly said.

Unlikely. We know there is no escape available. Not even in drawing back. There will be FIRE for believers, just as shown above.

Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

OSAS folks must build their "theory" around these words of Jesus, while avoiding them, which you have plainly done.

You are forced to show verse's that prove a person has eternal life while being disconnected from Christ.

There is no escape.

 

[MarkT]

I'm being sincere here.

Does this mean that if I ask God for something and I don't get it I could consider that I am NOT a righteous person and not a saved person?

Wondering

Are you asking about my God or your God? You already said you could never serve my God, saying, "I could never serve such a God" and "I would no longer be able to be a Christian".... At least three times you said you couldn't believe in my God.

And by your own admission you chose the God that suited you. Like Paul said,

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 2 Timothy 4:3

 

[JLB]

It wasn't your free will that got you saved in the first place. God saved you because you believed in His Son. And you became a child of God. Born again. Regenerated. And you CANNOT change your spiritual birth parent any more than you can change your physical birth parents.

Your birth parents do not determine whether you go to hell or to heaven.

So by the same camparison, your spiritual birth parents do not determine whether or not you go to hell or to heaven.

Just ask the angels who were cast down to hell, or Lucifer.


For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Your birth parents do not determine whether you go to hell or to heaven.

When ever did I suggest such a silly idea? My point has been about relationship. It is permanent, whether referring to physical birth parents or spiritual birth parent.

Seems you have quite a knack of missing my points entirely.

Just ask the angels who were cast down to hell, or Lucifer.

I'm not into making the mistake of trying to compare apples to oranges.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4JLB

Again, I don't make such mistakes. Angels are totally irrelevant to the subject of human salvation.

Unless you can prove otherwise. So be my guest. Prove your assumptions from Scripture.

 

[JLB]

When ever did I suggest such a silly idea? My point has been about relationship

Out of your own mouth, you have determined that your "reasoning" is silly, since you are the one who made the comparison.

JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm not into making the mistake of trying to compare apples to oranges.

Are angels called sons of God, making God their Father.

Are you saying someone else is the Father of angels?

Angels are certainly called sons of God, as well as those who attain to the resurrection.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36

[Potential inflammatory comment removed. WIP]


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Jesus stated plainly that one could in fact be removed from Him and be cast into the fire and burned.

This one sentence from Him, destroys the OSAS doctrine, which is why you listed other verses while avoiding what He plainly said.

OSAS folks must build their "theory" around these words of Jesus, while avoiding them, which you have plainly done.

You are forced to show verse's that prove a person has eternal life while being disconnected from Christ.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


All the "redefining" of biblical word definitions can not get around the plain and simple truth that there are some people who will be removed from Him, and thrown into the fire.

We have no eternal life apart from Christ.


Believers have eternal life.

Those who believe for awhile, then fall back into unbelief, are no longer believers.


JLB

I'm surprised at you JLB.
You know better than to base your whole doctrine on one verse.
Use another verse to go with it.
Show us who was saved and lost their salvation.
Maybe Judas Iscariot?
Go ahead, show us that he was actually saved.
Got any other verses to support your use of John 15:6?
Show us.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you asking about my God or your God? You already said you could never serve my God, saying, "I could never serve such a God" and "I would no longer be able to be a Christian".... At least three times you said you couldn't believe in my God.

And by your own admission you chose the God that suited you. Like Paul said,

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 2 Timothy 4:3

And YOU do not choose the God that suits you best?
Since your doctrine is a very new one to Christianity, I'd say that 2 Timothy 4:3 suits you very well.

I choose the God that did not make me a useless robot so that life becomes meaningless and the only reason we are here is to entertain a God who would willingly and arbitrarily send one to hell.
Where is the Love?
Deuteronomy 7.9
Jeremiah 29:11
John 4:16
John 3:16
Ephesians 2:4-5

And where is the justice?
James 2:7-13
Romans 2:12
Galatians 3:23
Galatians 4:5

It might seem comforting to think that salvation cannot be lost. it is most uncomforting if one considers the ramifications. Little puppets on a string with no free-will, doing as the puppet master wills them to do.

Scripture is full of the doctrine of loss of salvation - but only if one wishes to see it.
Let's move away from 2 Peter 2:20.22 since apparently those who do not wish to hear, do not hear.

John 8:31
" Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who HAD believed Him. IF you ABIDE in my word, THEN you are truly disciples of mine." NASB

I always hear a PRESENT TENSE in these verses which you choose to ignore or misunderstand.

Mathew 12:31
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the one and only sin that WILL NOT be tolerated or forgiven.

So when you DENY God, you are not saved and are blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
The unpardonable sin.

Then you come to believe and become saved.

At some point you decide, since you have free-will, that you NO LONGER WISH TO SERVE GOD. Maybe you've become a satanist? Maybe you'd like to live a life of sin? You decide, because you have free-will, to DENY God.

Have you not just blasphemed the Holy Spirit and committed the unpardonable sin?
WHAT would be the difference? THERE IS NONE:

Yes. I like my God much better than yours.

Wondering