Once saved..always saved....It's right here.

[ChristDependent]

The vessel of honor is the believer. They can NOT be lost. They can not be a vessel of dishonor. The vessel of honor receives mercy because of the BINDING to the vessel of dishonor in the FLESH, in the same lump of the O MAN. Exactly as Paul proposes in Romans 9 and exactly as he proposed for himself in 2 Cor. 12:7.

Nice try tho!

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

You said the same lump is the one man; but Paul says it is from that same lump that He makes one vessel unto honour and ANOTHER unto dishonour.

2 Timothy 2:20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

You said that a believer is not the vessel unto dishonour but Paul says that IN THAT GREAT HOUSE are TWO KINDS of VESSELS; one to honour and the other to dishonour BUT STILL in THAT HOUSE..

So from the same lump comes the two kinds of vessels and they are in the same House still.

 

[ChristDependent]

Repentance occurs at the moment of our regeneration.

Repenting from unbelief by believing in Him is how we are regenerated.

There is also a second form, nuance, of repentance. This repentance has to do with our sanctification. This is a lifelong process where we turn from different sins and become more christ like.

Looking unto the author & finisher of our faith is how any saved believer runs that race in laying aside every weight & sin to not lose the rewards of crowns, and to avoid the consequence of being a castaway.

 

[GodsGrace]

WIP, That's an excellent verse that I like to use. The interesting thing is that the word draw when used elsewhere in the NT is associated with dragged.

But not for John 6:44 --
συ.ρω, of dragging Paul's senseless body out of the city at Lystra. In John 21:6, John 21:8, John 21:11, both words of drawing the net. In John 18:10, ἑλκύω, of drawing Peter's sword. One distinction, however, is observed: σύρω is never used of Christ's attraction of men. See John 6:44; John 12:32.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope, that's Calvinism.
Sorry, try again.

Explain...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You think I'M boasting?
I did something I never do. I googled OSAS and look what I found:

John 6:44
God foreknew us and determined to call us before He ever made His summons known to us. By doing so, He was making a prognosis. We are in this elite group, the called, only because the great God of heaven and earth specifically and personally summoned us by forcibly bringing the good news to our attention so we would be motivated to choose to respond freely to it.

So I'm boasting but YOU are in an elite group, the called.

Then it goes on to say how you were forced into all belief: And to think a different poster was giving me an argument over the word FORCE which he was saying should be CAUSE. Interesting. It doesn't take too much to understand that if OSAS is correct, God is being forceful.

I think I should start using google more often. But it's not necessary - The Holy Spirit helps me along.

W

Calvinism teaches that Jesus' atonement on the cross was limited, that is, that He died only for a chosen group, His "elect", not for the sins of the entire world.

Also, Calvinism has a teaching called "irresistible grace", which is the belief that man cannot, even if he wants to, resist the wooing and calling of God to Salvation.

Those two doctrines are not doctrines of OSAS.
I have found that non-OSAS people use all kinds of statements to categorize OSAS people, then attack them.

Sorry, doesn't work.

 

[GodsGrace]

Rollo,
There's a misunderstanding here.
Please PM.

W

 

[Mike S]

Once saved always saved seems to me to be a license to sin. It is wrapped up in the theological concepts of free will, election, and salvation by faith alone. If good works can under no circumstances gain us salvation, then the logical flip side is that evil works can not lose us salvation. In that case, what difference does it make if we do everything we can to live Godly lives, or if we spend our lives in utter depravity? We have no control over salvation one way or the other.under Calvinist beliefs, nothing we do in life matters.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Once saved always saved seems to me to be a license to sin. It is wrapped up in the theological concepts of free will, election, and salvation by faith alone. If good works can under no circumstances gain us salvation, then the logical flip side is that evil works can not lose us salvation. In that case, what difference does it make if we do everything we can to live Godly lives, or if we spend our lives in utter depravity? We have no control over salvation one way or the other.under Calvinist beliefs, nothing we do in life matters.

Think of Mary and Martha.
Both were saved.
One chose to work and serve Jesus.
The other chose to drop to her knees and worship Jesus.
We shouldn't judge each other, just choose the relationship we want with Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Once saved always saved seems to me to be a license to sin. It is wrapped up in the theological concepts of free will, election, and salvation by faith alone. If good works can under no circumstances gain us salvation, then the logical flip side is that evil works can not lose us salvation. In that case, what difference does it make if we do everything we can to live Godly lives, or if we spend our lives in utter depravity? We have no control over salvation one way or the other.under Calvinist beliefs, nothing we do in life matters.

I think it gets worse. They say that if a person does "lose" their salvation it means that the person was never saved to begin with.

Think about that. It means that I can NEVER be sure of my salvation! Because I might lose it at any moment and I'll know I was never saved to begin with.

Instead my belief is that I'm trusting Jesus. It's a voluntary action of MINE. So, as long as I STAY with Him, I'm safe.
But since the OSAS crowd has NO CONTROL over their salvation - how could they trust it'll last forever.

I don't know if you've been reading along, but for me, my post no. 218 says it all.
I couldn't serve such an arbitrary God.

It's also a veiled license to sin in the sense that you become less conscious of your spiritual life and may be more easily led astray.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Think of Mary and Martha.
Both were saved.
One chose to work and serve Jesus.
The other chose to drop to her knees and worship Jesus.
We shouldn't judge each other, just choose the relationship we want with Jesus.

Could you please explain for me why works always comes up when discussing this topic??

W

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Could you please explain for me why works always comes up when discussing this topic??

W

Because that's what people think about.
One way or the other, your personal relationship with Jesus is all that matters.

 

[MarkT]

It's not MY theology MarkT.
It's simple, traditional theology.

Mathew 13 is speaking to the RESPONSE of the seed being thrown onto the ground.
The sower is throwing seed - The seed is being thrown. God is throwing the seed.

Unfortunately, the RESPONSE to the word is not the same. Jesus gives the different reasons why NOT EVERYONE will come to believe. It's an analogy. It's explaining the condition of the person that has the possibility to accept. Who can know why the man in your question could not accept. If he heard the word, he had the same chance as everyone else. HOW prepared does one have to be? God is not going to force us.

Your second paragraph answers your own question.

As to the potter and the clay: Romans 9:21
verse 20: Does man have the right to ask God why anyone was made the way they are?
Job 38:4

verse 21: God gives man the choice to choose. God has the power to give this choice to man.

I think if one takes scripture in a verse by verse method a complete picture does not emerge.

I fail to understand how anyone could believe God would purposefully damn one to hell. This is the big picture. do you believe God damns people to hell?

Wondering

Well, the theologians are false. Wolves in sheep's clothing. Mt. 7:15 Jesus warned us. There is no life in them or in their traditional theology.

The word of the kingdom attracts men to the light, both the good and the bad; the bad maybe to twist the word because that is their purpose, but nevertheless they serve their purpose in God's plan. The seed is the word. The word is planted in the heart. God gives growth. So in some cases the word is choked, in some cases it bears fruit and it bears fruit abundantly. In some cases it doesn't even get started. The fruit of the tree, because that's what is growing, is wisdom, knowledge and understanding, etc.. So Jesus said he who has to him more will be given and from him who has not even what he thinks he has will be taken away. Mt. 13:12 So Jesus is speaking of knowledge, and faith, and all the good things that come from above. Like eternal life. If a man has knowledge, more will be given to him. If he doesn't have knowledge, even what knowledge he thinks he has will be taken away.

As to your statement that he has the same chance as everyone else. Not true. This is not a crap shoot. This is what happens. When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and doesn't understand it, the evil one comes and snatches it away. Now if you take away the seed, what do you have? Nothing. There is no life in the man.

The church seems to be unaware of the importance of understanding the words Jesus gave us. No understanding equals no life. So what does it mean to choose if you don't understand? What are you choosing? Nothing.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.
Romans 9:22
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,

It could be men are mere vessels for good and evil. I also believe in prayer so I pray for all men.

I believe the Day of the Lord will come burning like an oven.
Malachi 4:1
“For behold, the day comes, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.

 

[GodsGrace]

MarkT
I made what I believe very clear in my post 218.
I serve a good God and a loving God.
A God that desires that all men be saved.
A God that makes Himself be known and draws all men to Him.
A God who gave His only Son so that ALL may come to salvation.

I leave you with John 3:16
There is no more perfect verse in the bible than this.

Wondering

 

[MarkT]

There was absolutely ZERO reason for Paul to drag the term SATAN into the equations if SATAN was not the factor. He could have EASILY left off at beatings or pain or weakness, but that is NOT the statement of FACT that Paul made.

I'll take Paul's statement of fact exactly for the fact it is.

7 And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. 8 Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; 9 but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities; for when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Cor. 12:7-10

It a matter of perception. The Jews who beat him served Satan. The weakness he had to endure was therefore a messenger of Satan. Then Paul goes on that he is content with it because it makes him strong.

 

[Mike]

The bottom line...you didn't choose God. (Salvation through Christ Jesus) God choose you.
When you or anyone else claims they choose God...they are boasting.

While I don't agree with decision-based theology, this is a strong statement you've made here a few times. I believe you're being a bit harsh on wondering specifically and on others who hold that they play a part in receiving what He offers. It is a widely held doctrine within Christendom. Again, I don't agree with it, but I'd never accuse her and others of boasting based on that alone.

 

[Cygnus]

You think I'M boasting?

W

I don't think you're standing outside of your house banging on a drum...BUT, you do claim you had a part in choosing Christ and remaing in His mercy. Yes?

 

[Cygnus]

Then how could you possibly be sure you are saved? I do hear that some in the OSAS crowd were never saved to begin with.

Did you read my post no. 218?

Last question: Is this the God you serve?

W
no reply necessary.

Many think they are saved...and are not. Some might even think they're not saved and be saved.

Of course if I could lose my salvation how would I know I'm still saved? Then again if you can lose your salvation you more than likely already have.

 

[Cygnus]

Repenting from unbelief by believing in Him is how we are regenerated.



Looking unto the author & finisher of our faith is how any saved believer runs that race in laying aside every weight & sin to not lose the rewards of crowns, and to avoid the consequence of being a castaway.

I think you're regenerated first...this then gives you the ability to believe and repent. Prior to our regeneration we were dead in our sins and trespasses and couldn't repent or believe.

 

[Cygnus]

But not for John 6:44 --
συ.ρω, of dragging Paul's senseless body out of the city at Lystra. In John 21:6, John 21:8, John 21:11, both words of drawing the net. In John 18:10, ἑλκύω, of drawing Peter's sword. One distinction, however, is observed: σύρω is never used of Christ's attraction of men. See John 6:44; John 12:32.

The word isn't used as a wooing...here kitty, kitty style.

 

[WIP]

As usual and as I feared with this topic the discussion is becoming more and more personal and eventually leads into the "pit." I think it's time we check our attitudes at the door. Concentrate on sharing the truth with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15) to build each other up (1 Thessalonians 5:11) rather than just proving you can win an argument or back others into a corner.