Once saved..always saved....It's right here.

[GodsGrace]

John 15 says quite a bit, that can be both support and argument against the idea of once saved, always and eternally saved. John 15:16 goes further in the instance of being saved, by adding that we didn't choose Jesus, but Jesus chose us. So if we can't lose our salvation, then it can be said we've always had it, if we've ever had it.

(Arguably though, it could be argued that parts of Jesus's teachings were meant for just the audience that He was speaking to, so Jesus chose the 12 desciples, and possibly others throughout history. If that logic holds then some can be chosen to be Christians and saved, and some chose to be Christian and be saved. I don't know what to say good or bad to those types of arguments.)

On the other hand though, Jesus's words say repeatedly in John 15, that if we remain in Jesus, He will remain in us. He also says that no fruit can come from us unless we remain in Jesus, the true vine. And also that if we beer no fruit, God will remove us like a branch is removed from a vine. So while there is great comfort in John 10:27, I think John 15:1-8 serves as a message to not take lightly our salvation. Stay in Jesus, or risk losing Him. (If that's how the verses are meant.). And also as an encouragement. God is on our side on this, and wants us to bear much fruit.

NNS
You have a beautiful and open mind - able to see all sides of an issue.
You remind me of my favorite scripture: Philippians 4:8

Yes. Jesus was addressing His Apostles when making certain statements, as you posted above. However, they will also be meant for us in 99% of the cases. For example Mathew 28:19. He tells the apostles to go out into the world and make disciples. We are called to do our best to achieve this goal.

I agree with your last paragraph and would encourage you in that it is not easy to lose Him, as you put it. God is on our side and is forever helping us to stay close to Him and will stay with us even when we fail and for as long as we want Him to stay with us. Mathew 28:20

Wondering

 

[ChristDependent]

John 15 says quite a bit, that can be both support and argument against the idea of once saved, always and eternally saved. John 15:16 goes further in the instance of being saved, by adding that we didn't choose Jesus, but Jesus chose us. So if we can't lose our salvation, then it can be said we've always had it, if we've ever had it.

(Arguably though, it could be argued that parts of Jesus's teachings were meant for just the audience that He was speaking to, so Jesus chose the 12 desciples, and possibly others throughout history. If that logic holds then some can be chosen to be Christians and saved, and some chose to be Christian and be saved. I don't know what to say good or bad to those types of arguments.)

On the other hand though, Jesus's words say repeatedly in John 15, that if we remain in Jesus, He will remain in us. He also says that no fruit can come from us unless we remain in Jesus, the true vine. And also that if we beer no fruit, God will remove us like a branch is removed from a vine. So while there is great comfort in John 10:27, I think John 15:1-8 serves as a message to not take lightly our salvation. Stay in Jesus, or risk losing Him. (If that's how the verses are meant.). And also as an encouragement. God is on our side on this, and wants us to bear much fruit.

John 15 th chapter is about abiding in Him as His disciples to bear fruit and that our joy may be full. The consequence is of course, being cut off, but this is not in regards to salvation, but being received as His disciples to the Marriage Supper as many are called but few are chosen.

Luke 12:40-49 has believers cut off for not being ready nor found abiding in Him, and yet they are still called His servants after having been cut off as they are receiving stripes.

2 Timothy 2:18-21 testify how believers can err from the truth and have their faith overthrown, and yet even then, former believers are still called to depart from iniquity and not just believers so as to be received as a vessel unto honor in His House. Those that do not repent with His help by the time the Bridegroom comes, will be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation.

This is why we are to disciple other believers in running that race by faith in Jesus Christ, because there is more than the loss of the reward of crowns that is at stake, but becoming a castaway is a danger too. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 & Hebrews 12:1-2

So any work of iniquity that denies Him ( Titus 1:15-16 ) they will be denied by Him for being workers of iniquity ( 2 Timothy 2:11-12 & Matthew 7:21-23 ) but even if they believe not in Him any more, He still abides in them ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) .

And so we can have confidence that Jesus will finish His work even in those that are left behind ( Philippians 1:6-11 ) as He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him ( John 6:39-40 ) He is our faithful Creator in keeping the souls of His saints suffering being left behind.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

And so how we build on that foundation in running that race is key ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 ) as we need His help to discern & depart from iniquity in according to the meat of His words as kept in the KJV, but the truth is that the foundation can never be destroyed having His seal ( Ephesians 4:30 ) which is why only the works on that foundation is burned up and the loss is not being that vessel unto honor in His House which is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus; 2 Timothy 2:10.

The vessel unto dishonor in His House will be testifying to the power of God in salvation for even those that just believe in His name, and that is why they are still in His House as the prodigal son that had given up his inheritance for wild living can never get that back in being of the firstfruits, but he is still son as they will be received later on as they that be Christ's at His coming after the great tribulation.

So while the door to the Marriage Supper is still open, may every believer and even former believers go before that throne of grace for help in discerning & departing from iniquity.

 

[Cygnus]

Not in English it isn't

Whatever caused the sheep to walk away...the lie they believed, the deceit....is the snatching.

Jesus says....they remain saved. They may be deceived...but not taken from Christ Jesus' hand.

 

[Cygnus]

It doesn't seem to say to me that I can't leave Jesus hand on my own. But, I don't want to get into dueling scriptures.

The reason one would leave Jesus' hand...would be the snatching. The cunning lie that causes you to walk away from Jesus...is the snatching. You may walk away....but your soul is still in the hands of Jesus. Forgiven into everlasting life.

 

[Cygnus]

Cygnus,
I thank you for answering your own question up above.
I've highlighted and underlined the answer to your question about how no one can snatch us out of Jesus' hand.

You say:
No one, or no force, can snatch us out of God's hand UNLESS IT IS OUR WILL.
Satan can try many ways to snatch us out of God's hand, but it's UP TO OUR WILL to REMAIN safe with the Holy Spirit.

So you see: You do understand what the word "snatch" means. It's an action that SOMEONE or SOMETHING ELSE takes. So, you're correct, no ONE or no THING (principalities, powers) can snatch us out of Jesus' hands.

UNLESS IT IS OUR WILL.
And here you've hit the nail on the head. If IT IS OUR WILL, to be snatched, THEN it CAN happen.

And, again, you correctly say that IT'S UP TO OUR WILL to REMAIN safe with the Holy Spirit.

Correct again. It's a matter of the will. I WILL to remain safe in Jesus' hands.
You see, Cygnus, when we WILL something, it means we're DECIDING to do something.
If we can decide to do something it means there's a choice - if there's a choice to be made it means we could reverse and decide not to continue in doing that something.

It's a little like a friendship. There may even be some trouble there, as there is in any relationship. But I WILL ro remain with my friend. As long as I WILL it, I choose to remain in that friendship.

If one day I walk out and I no longer WILL to be in the friendship, then it will end.
So, you see, no one or no thing snatched me out of the friendship, I WILLED to end it and CHOSE to.

It must be our WILL to remain in a relationship. WE can end that relationship when the WILL is no longer there.

Wondering

Do you not know salvation was NOT of your own will but the will of God? You didn't choose Jesus...rather it was Jesus who choose you.

Perhaps you boast in your choosing?

 

[Cygnus]

Here's my other thought....

If you can lose your salvation....you already have. I kinda pity that theology.

Perhaps I should repeat this....If you can lose your salvation....you already have.

 

[smaller]

The reason one would leave Jesus' hand...would be the snatching. The cunning lie that causes you to walk away from Jesus...is the snatching. You may walk away....but your soul is still in the hands of Jesus. Forgiven into everlasting life.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

If we can't rely on Christ we certainly can't rely on ourselves. The flesh of none of us is going to cut the eternal spiritual mustard. It's not even remotely possible for that to happen.

There is a clear distinction CUT between the flesh and the Spirit.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[Cygnus]

So, here we are 128 post into the thread.....and still no one can present a theology on how we can be snatched from Jesus' hands.

...I read a lot of speculation....but still no one tells us using biblical verses how we can be snatched from Jesus' hands.

Gods elect will be saved....for eternity.

 

[JLB]

John 15 th chapter is about abiding in Him as His disciples to bear fruit and that our joy may be full. The consequence is of course, being cut off, but this is not in regards to salvation, but being received as His disciples to the Marriage Supper as many are called but few are chosen.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

And verse 6 here, where it says... they are thrown into the fire and burned.

What does that mean to you? ... thrown into the fire and burned>



JLB

 

[JLB]

So, here we are 128 post into the thread.....and still no one can present a theology on how we can be snatched from Jesus' hands.

...I read a lot of speculation....but still no one tells us using biblical verses how we can be snatched from Jesus' hands.

Gods elect will be saved....for eternity.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2

Who does "He" refer to in this verse that says "He" takes away...?

These are taken away from being "in Christ".

What happens to these that are taken away from being "in Christ"?

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:5-6

JLB

 

[ChristDependent]

Whatever caused the sheep to walk away...the lie they believed, the deceit....is the snatching.

Jesus says....they remain saved. They may be deceived...but not taken from Christ Jesus' hand.

In John 10:1-5, it is when believers climb up another way that they wind up following a stranger's voice. This can be applied to believers thinking they can get another drink of the One Spirit in getting tongues which never comes with interpretation. This is the falling away from the faith spoken of in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 & here;

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,....7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

This is Paul explaining how that iniquity of the falling away from the faith was happening even in his day.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So those believers that think they can receive the Holy Spirit again with power by the evidence of tongues as they do so by addressing the Holy Spirit Himself to come and fall on them, thus going around the Son in coming to God the Father ( John 10:1 ), God will permit the strong delusion to occur for believing that lie as He who let, will let till He be taken out of the way.

Therefore all believers that have the new age mentality of receiving the "Spirit" again after that sign or other signs in the flesh have fallen away from the faith. Matthew 12:39 & 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 & 2 Corinthians 13:5

This is why Paul remind them when they had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth by the hearing of the gospel.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Paul goes on to the 3rd chapter in explaining how these wicked, unreasonable men that have not faith, that follow not after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly as those believers are in those movements of the "Spirit", that they are not to be treated as the enemy, but admonish them because they are still brothers.

2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;....4 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

But as in John 10th chapter, there are sheep that were not of the fold that follow His voice and yet He must bring them, because they are His and they will be made to hear His voice and be of the one fold & one shepherd.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Is it possible for those that have gone astray to hear His voice finally by His grace and by His help and repent to return to their first love and shun vain & profane babbling to pray normally so that they may know what they had prayed for to give the Father thanks in Jesus's name for answered prayers? Yes. 2 Timothy 2:24-26 There is always a way back to the Bridegroom until that door is shut at the rapture.

 

[ChristDependent]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

And verse 6 here, where it says... they are thrown into the fire and burned.

What does that mean to you? ... thrown into the fire and burned>

JLB

Be left behind at the pre trib rapture event to face the fire coming on the earth for in that day, those left behind will have their works judged as such when God judges His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 )

Luke 12:40-49 speaks of the consequence for not being ready and abiding in Him as this fire will be sent on the earth as Peter explains this fiery judgment further in 2 Peter 3rd chapter in relation to the global flood, and how in that day ( 1 Corinthians 3:13 ) will judge those believers left behind by their works for defiling the temple of the Holy Spirit which is their body; which will be destroyed by a physical death ( 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 ), but their spirit will still be saved, but so as through fire. ( 1 Corinthians 3:15 )

This is God excommunicating those not abiding in Him as the church is supposed to be doing in giving them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may be saved in the day of Christ. 1 Corinthians 5:4-5

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

That's Jesus talking to those that are His in reading His words and they are still His even when left behind.

 

[JLB]

Be left behind at the pre trib rapture event to face the fire coming on the earth for in that day, those left behind will have their works judged as such when God judges His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 )

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-2,6

So in your mind, these words were not for the disciples He was speaking, and their disciples, who would be taught what Jesus taught them, but was for some people who would not even be born for another two thousand years.

Sorry, but every branch refers to every person who is ever in Christ.


Furthermore, there is no such scripture of teaching in the bible called the "pre-trib Rapture".

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Guess who the "them" refers to in this verse?

The resurrected ones. That's because the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the Rapture, are one event that happens at His coming.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

John 10:27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. NASV

If you can lose your salvation..how do you explain away the above verse?

Cygnus, The promise is for those who believe. It's not for those who stop believing.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)

OSAS is a very, very powerful indoctrination. You'll have to allow yourself to honestly consider something outside of the box of OSAS thinking to get it. Honestly considering something doesn't mean you have to accept it. It simply means you honestly consider how something you never thought of before can be true. From there you can then make your mind up if you're going to adapt your doctrinal beliefs accordingly. So non-OSAS isn't about making someone abandon their hard and fast OSAS beliefs. The real battle is getting them to even be able to see the alternate argument. Indoctrinations blind the eyes of people so they are unable to do that.

OSAS doctrine is one of a handful of false doctrines that have developed over time as the result of the church's horrible misunderstanding of Paul's faith vs. law doctrine started by the early church. The error produced by this misunderstanding has been compounding until now we even have a hyper-grace doctrine in the church that says even unbelievers can and will be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you not know salvation was NOT of your own will but the will of God? You didn't choose Jesus...rather it was Jesus who choose you.

Perhaps you boast in your choosing?

Jesus chooses everybody.
He died for everybody when He went to the cross.
His sacrifice is sufficient for all men - past, present and future.
HOWEVER, that sacrifice must be accepted to be efficient.
I like John 3:16 It speaks about having to BELIEVE and believing is accepting.
Also, John 1:12 and Acts 16:31

So YES, we DO have to choose Jesus.

I boast this:
Ephesians 1:7

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

duplicate

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps I should repeat this....If you can lose your salvation....you already have.

Interesting concept.

Would you care to expound?
Because an awful lot of people will be doomed to damnation if your view is correct.

And, if your view is correct, then the opposite is also true.
"If you can be saved - you already are."

Bringing your view to its logical conclusion means that EVERYONE is saved.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

So, here we are 128 post into the thread.....and still no one can present a theology on how we can be snatched from Jesus' hands.

...I read a lot of speculation....but still no one tells us using biblical verses how we can be snatched from Jesus' hands.

Gods elect will be saved....for eternity.

Cygnus
I've been here from the start. I went through each sentence of the verse you posted, you refused it. (post 15)
We went through the English meaning of the word "snatch". You refused it.
Many have posted biblical proof that salvation can be lost. You refuse it.
Quick review: You cannot be snatched - but you could walk away of your own free will (which you said yourself, please see my post no. 81).

So you cannot say a theology has not been presented. You CAN say that you refuse it.

Jethro Bodine in post no. 134 has made some interesting comments.
Maybe you could think on that a little instead of having a scriptures war.

We can pull out scripture verses and prove what we want to but the N.T. is a complete concept.
The concept is that man is sinful and requires salvation so he could be with God.
Good so far?
How is one saved? One is saved by BELIEVING on the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 1:12 Acts 16:31

BELIEVING is a present (progressive) tense. Not past. You must believe now. right now. And it's progressive - it continues for as long as the action lasts. Then it stops. I've said this before but you also refuse this.

So what happens if you STOP believing?
You weren't saved BEFORE you believed, were you?
So then how could you be saved if you STOP believing?
Wouldn't that put you in the same condition you were in BEFORE you decided to believe?

Wondering

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

NNS
You have a beautiful and open mind - able to see all sides of an issue.
You remind me of my favorite scripture: Philippians 4:8

Yes. Jesus was addressing His Apostles when making certain statements, as you posted above. However, they will also be meant for us in 99% of the cases. For example Mathew 28:19. He tells the apostles to go out into the world and make disciples. We are called to do our best to achieve this goal.

I agree with your last paragraph and would encourage you in that it is not easy to lose Him, as you put it. God is on our side and is forever helping us to stay close to Him and will stay with us even when we fail and for as long as we want Him to stay with us. Mathew 28:20

Wondering

Thank you so much.

 

[JLB]

Cygnus
I've been here from the start. I went through each sentence of the verse you posted, you refused it. (post 15)
We went through the English meaning of the word "snatch". You refused it.
Many have posted biblical proof that salvation can be lost. You refuse it.
Quick review: You cannot be snatched - but you could walk away of your own free will (which you said yourself, please see my post no. 81).

So you cannot say a theology has not been presented. You CAN say that you refuse it.

So very true, Wondering.

These that refuse the truth of the scriptures do so, because as Paul said, there is a stronghold constructed within them that causes them to exalt their opinion "against the knowledge of God".

4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:4-5

There are some things in scripture that we can get wrong, then there is doctrine that if we get wrong, by willfully twisting the scriptures and allowing false doctrine [heresy] to be built within us, we could end up being lost, especially if we further the heresy by teaching it to others.

Example: 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:17-19

...they overthrow the faith of some.

The foundational doctrine of Christ; who He is [the Lord God], and what He taught to His disciples to pass along to their disciples, ie: the Apostles doctrine, is the foundation we are to build our lives upon; the solid Rock of truth.

Remember, Heresy is one of the works of the flesh, if practiced, will keep a person from inheriting the Kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

This scripture is so plain and clear, that those who teach OSAS have to "redefine" the meaning of "Inherit the Kingdom of God", to mean something other than what Jesus taught us.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34


Those who do not hear these words spoken to them, will hear these:
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

JLB