Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Cornelius]

Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Cornelius]

"Rom 11:12 Now if their fall, is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" So then, the cutting off here refers to the "fall" if Israel, and not the loss of salvation of an individual.

To read the verses in Romans 11 as referring to an individual that was once saved, and now is no longer saved is to do great violence to the context of the Chapter.

Yes that is 11:12, and then Paul starts talking to the Gentile believers. He tells them in verse 22 that they must not now think that they are "safe" because if God could cut off natural Israel, then what is stopping Him from cutting of the ingrafted branches of the Olive Tree. Nothing. They too can be cut off and burnt.

Rom 11:22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou (Christian) also shalt be cut off.

"if" in the English language points to a condition. The condition if you want to stay in the tree is : to continue in His goodness. If not : you do not meet the condition and you are cut off as well.

 

[Mysteryman]

"Rom 11:12 Now if their fall, is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" So then, the cutting off here refers to the "fall" if Israel, and not the loss of salvation of an individual.

To read the verses in Romans 11 as referring to an individual that was once saved, and now is no longer saved is to do great violence to the context of the Chapter.

Yes that is 11:12, and then Paul starts talking to the Gentile believers. He tells them in verse 22 that they must not now think that they are "safe" because if God could cut off natural Israel, then what is stopping Him from cutting of the ingrafted branches of the Olive Tree. Nothing. They too can be cut off and burnt.

Rom 11:22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou (Christian) also shalt be cut off.

"if" in the English language points to a condition. The condition if you want to stay in the tree is : to continue in His goodness. If not : you do not meet the condition and you are cut off as well.

Hi C.

Cut off from what ? Your assuming it means cut off from salvation ! Which is just not true !!

If we do not continue in his goodness, we will be cut off from his goodness <<< This is what this verse means !

This being "cut off" is dealing with rewards, not salvation ! Loss of rewards is the being - "cut off" from his goodness.

 

[watchman F]

"Rom 11:12 Now if their fall, is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" So then, the cutting off here refers to the "fall" if Israel, and not the loss of salvation of an individual.

To read the verses in Romans 11 as referring to an individual that was once saved, and now is no longer saved is to do great violence to the context of the Chapter.

Yes that is 11:12, and then Paul starts talking to the Gentile believers. He tells them in verse 22 that they must not now think that they are "safe" because if God could cut off natural Israel, then what is stopping Him from cutting of the ingrafted branches of the Olive Tree. Nothing. They too can be cut off and burnt.

Rom 11:22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou (Christian) also shalt be cut off.

"if" in the English language points to a condition. The condition if you want to stay in the tree is : to continue in His goodness. If not : you do not meet the condition and you are cut off as well.

mondar, cornelious is right the scripture plainly states Gentiles whom believe on Christ are grafted in, but those believing Gentiles that do not continue in the goodness of God will be personally cut off.

 

[watchman F]

"Rom 11:12 Now if their fall, is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" So then, the cutting off here refers to the "fall" if Israel, and not the loss of salvation of an individual.

To read the verses in Romans 11 as referring to an individual that was once saved, and now is no longer saved is to do great violence to the context of the Chapter.

Yes that is 11:12, and then Paul starts talking to the Gentile believers. He tells them in verse 22 that they must not now think that they are "safe" because if God could cut off natural Israel, then what is stopping Him from cutting of the ingrafted branches of the Olive Tree. Nothing. They too can be cut off and burnt.

Rom 11:22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou (Christian) also shalt be cut off.

"if" in the English language points to a condition. The condition if you want to stay in the tree is : to continue in His goodness. If not : you do not meet the condition and you are cut off as well.

Hi C.

Cut off from what ? Your assuming it means cut off from salvation ! Which is just not true !!

If we do not continue in his goodness, we will be cut off from his goodness <<< This is what this verse means !

This being "cut off" is dealing with rewards, not salvation ! Loss of rewards is the being - "cut off" from his goodness.

MM, once again you have amazed me by your false interpretation of scripture. You aren;t even close to what scripture says. That are cut off from that which they were grafted into, the good olive tree that represents God chosen people. This does indeed mean they will have lost their salvation.

 

[watchman F]

Another scripture that proves OSAS is false in Colossians 1:21-23

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.

The promise of being presented holy and unblameable and unreproveable is conditional to continuing in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel.

 

[DarcyLu]

"Rom 11:12 Now if their fall, is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" So then, the cutting off here refers to the "fall" if Israel, and not the loss of salvation of an individual.

To read the verses in Romans 11 as referring to an individual that was once saved, and now is no longer saved is to do great violence to the context of the Chapter.

Yes that is 11:12, and then Paul starts talking to the Gentile believers. He tells them in verse 22 that they must not now think that they are "safe" because if God could cut off natural Israel, then what is stopping Him from cutting of the ingrafted branches of the Olive Tree. Nothing. They too can be cut off and burnt.

Rom 11:22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou (Christian) also shalt be cut off.

"if" in the English language points to a condition. The condition if you want to stay in the tree is : to continue in His goodness. If not : you do not meet the condition and you are cut off as well.

Hi C.

Cut off from what ? Your assuming it means cut off from salvation ! Which is just not true !!

If we do not continue in his goodness, we will be cut off from his goodness <<< This is what this verse means !

This being "cut off" is dealing with rewards, not salvation ! Loss of rewards is the being - "cut off" from his goodness.

MM, it does mean losing your salvation, why would you at all believe it's about a loss of rewards?? Romans like John 15 is NOT talking about losing rewards, it doesn't even make sense. cut off means cut off - you would no longer be part of the Church.

 

[archangel_300]

MM, it does mean losing your salvation, why would you at all believe it's about a loss of rewards?? Romans like John 15 is NOT talking about losing rewards, it doesn't even make sense. cut off means cut off - you would no longer be part of the Church.

So then what you are saying is that no single individual in the nation of Israel is saved.

Romans 11 is referring to the fact that the nation of Israel is cut off from the blessings of the gospel but not that every single individual in the nation of Israel is. For many centuries the nation of Israel was a holy nation that carried the law of God and they were blessed but now they have been cut off because of unbelief and now the blessings of the gospel now come to the Gentile nations. Even to this day Israel remains in spiritual blindness and they do not consider Christ as the messiah. They as a nation still follow the Old Testament laws and rules but that does not mean that every single Jewish person is this way. There are plenty of Jewish Christians who know that Jesus is the savior of the world.

Romans 11 is warning to us as Gentiles to continue in God's goodness and to stand in Christ by faith otherwise as Gentiles there may come a day when we are broken off from the blessings of the gospel and the nation of Israel is grafted in again. Perhaps there will come a day when the nation of Israel recognizes that Jesus is the Messiah and there is a spiritual revival within that nation so that they stand by faith in Christ. After all they were the natural branches that extended from the olive tree.

Romans 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[watchman F]

Another scripture that proves OSAS is false in Colossians 1:21-23

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.

The promise of being presented holy and unblameable and unreproveable is conditional to continuing in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel.

Any of you false hyper grace , OSAS, eternal security teachers going to take a crack at this passage?

 

[DarcyLu]

So then what you are saying is that no single individual in the nation of Israel is saved.

no, that is not what i am saying, yet not every single natural born Israelite will be saved either.

Romans 11 is referring to the fact that the nation of Israel is cut off from the blessings of the gospel but not that every single individual in the nation of Israel is. For many centuries the nation of Israel was a holy nation that carried the law of God and they were blessed but now they have been cut off because of unbelief and now the blessings of the gospel now come to the Gentile nations. Even to this day Israel remains in spiritual blindness and they do not consider Christ as the messiah. They as a nation still follow the Old Testament laws and rules but that does not mean that every single Jewish person is this way. There are plenty of Jewish Christians who know that Jesus is the savior of the world.

Romans 11 is warning to us as Gentiles to continue in God's goodness and to stand in Christ by faith otherwise as Gentiles there may come a day when we are broken off from the blessings of the gospel and the nation of Israel is grafted in again. Perhaps there will come a day when the nation of Israel recognizes that Jesus is the Messiah and there is a spiritual revival within that nation so that they stand by faith in Christ. After all they were the natural branches that extended from the olive tree.

yes, this was God's plan from the beginning, it was a way for the Gentiles to become children of God, also. We do disagree on the interpetation of of what is meant by the Gentiles continuing in God's goodness, if we do not, the Word is very clear in the passage and others that we can indeed lose our salvation. OSAS is a dangerous doctrine that invites complacency and idleness to believers.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi C.

Cut off from what ? Your assuming it means cut off from salvation ! Which is just not true !!

If we do not continue in his goodness, we will be cut off from his goodness <<< This is what this verse means !

This being "cut off" is dealing with rewards, not salvation ! Loss of rewards is the being - "cut off" from his goodness.[/quote]
MM, it does mean losing your salvation, why would you at all believe it's about a loss of rewards?? Romans like John 15 is NOT talking about losing rewards, it doesn't even make sense. cut off means cut off - you would no longer be part of the Church.[/quote]


Hi Darcy

When the Word talks about the "goodness" of God, that is what it is talking about !

When it is talking about salvation, then it is talking about salvation !

I Cornth. 3:15 is talking about salvation and the things you shall suffer , which is "loss" of rewards. This verse is talking about loss of rewards, yet - "he himself shall be saved" ; yet so as by fire.

Galatians 6:7 - "Be not deceived ; God is not mocked : for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap"

Verse 8 - "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption ; but he that soweeth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap (in) life everlasting"

Verse 9 - "And let us not be weary in well doing : for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not"

Now we need to turn to the latter epistle of John. I John 2:12 - "I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake"

I John 4:4 - "Ye are of God, littl children, and have overcome them : because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world"

I John 4:6 - "We are of God : he that knoweth God heareth us ; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error"

I John 4:13 - "Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit"

I John 5:4 - For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world : and this is the victory that overcometh the world, our faith"

I John 5:11 - "And this is the record, that God hath given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son"
Verse 12 - "He that hath the Son hath life"

I John 5:18 - "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not ; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not"

 

[chestertonrules]

When the Word talks about the "goodness" of God, that is what it is talking about !

When it is talking about salvation, then it is talking about salvation !

It's easy to make the bible say what you want when you intentionally distort the message.

For exampe. you quoted the following trying to claim that salvation was not the issue. Who do you think you are fooling?

Galatians 6:7 - "Be not deceived ; God is not mocked : for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap"

8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that naturea will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

 

[Mysteryman]

When the Word talks about the "goodness" of God, that is what it is talking about !

When it is talking about salvation, then it is talking about salvation !

It's easy to make the bible say what you want when you intentionally distort the message.

For exampe. you quoted the following trying to claim that salvation was not the issue. Who do you think you are fooling?

Galatians 6:7 - "Be not deceived ; God is not mocked : for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap"

8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that naturea will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Hi there

If you interpret verse 8 to read - that if you sow to the Spirit, and that it is in sowing to the Spirit that you reap eternal life. Then you are claiming salvation by works ! And the Word is clear, that we are saved by grace and not by works !

 

[DarcyLu]

When the Word talks about the "goodness" of God, that is what it is talking about !

When it is talking about salvation, then it is talking about salvation !

It's easy to make the bible say what you want when you intentionally distort the message.

For exampe. you quoted the following trying to claim that salvation was not the issue. Who do you think you are fooling?

Galatians 6:7 - "Be not deceived ; God is not mocked : for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap"

8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that naturea will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Hi there

If you interpret verse 8 to read - that if you sow to the Spirit, and that it is in sowing to the Spirit that you reap eternal life. Then you are claiming salvation by works ! And the Word is clear, that we are saved by grace and not by works !

MM, it says the "one who sows" is that not an action statement on our part? there are things we must do when we are saved.

 

[DarcyLu]

Hi there

If you interpret verse 8 to read - that if you sow to the Spirit, and that it is in sowing to the Spirit that you reap eternal life. Then you are claiming salvation by works ! And the Word is clear, that we are saved by grace and not by works !

MM, it says the "one who sows" is that not an action statement on our part? there are things we must do when we are saved.

as in faith without works is dead.

 

[mondar]

More on the impossibility of seeing the term "cut off" in Romans 11 as referring to people that lost their salvation......

The short version is that if you look in verse 6, and then later in verse 20, you will see that if anyone is cut off, it is those that depend upon their works for salvation. That is what Israel did. Verse 6 has an outright denial that the reason for being cut off is works, then later in verse 20 the reason for being cut off is stated as being "unbelief."


If you dont want to read more, OK, but here is the longer version....
The topic of the Chapter has to do with the fact that God did not give up Israel, but rejected part of Israel.... In 11:1 he says... "Rom 11:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid."

Paul claims that God did not cast off his people because there is a remnant.... Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. So then, the remnant (those not cut off) are saved, but those not included in the remnant are "cut off." Israel is the the natural olive branch, some of the natural branches are "cut off." The question is --`on what basis is Israel cut off'

Then in the very next sentence, Paul argues that it is not an issue of works... It is all of grace... He says... Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. So then Israel is cut off from Grace on the basis of Gods elective choice. This would be a peculiar thing to say if the issue was works as a part of salvation, or keeping salvation. If the later reference concerning being "cut off" refers to keeping your salvation due to your own works, the phrase in verse 6 "by grace, it is no more of works" would simply not fit.

As the context continues, Paul talks about those that were "cut off." (or those not in the remnant). He says.... Rom 11:8 according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, And bow thou down their back always. So then, God extends grace to some, but to others, he darkens there eyes. In other words, he does not extend grace. They cannot earn God's favor, and he will not give it, but darkens their eyes.

Verse 8 is a quote of Deuteronomy 29:4. God did not want the Jewish people not in the remnant to believe and be saved so he sent a spirit of stupor. Of course with the remnant, he wants them to be saved and gives them circumcision of the heart (see Deuteronomy 30:6-- And Jehovah thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. Only in this way can they repent and return to God... Deu 30:2 and shalt return unto Jehovah thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul; The neccessary requirement is then an act of God in circumcising the heart.

Verses 9-10 are a quote of Psalms that says the same thing.

So then, those who are cut off, were cut off because of unbelief. They were a part of the Jewish people who were never the remnant.

This leads to Pauls statement in verse 12.... "Now if their fall, is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" The fall of the part of Israel that was not the remnant, or the part of Israel that was "cut off" (the part that never believed) was a "fall" so that salvation might come to the Gentiles.

Probably the most decisive thing in the passage is verse 20.... Rom 11:20 Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: It was because of "unbelief" that some Israelites were "cut off" or "broken off" or as verse 1 says "cast off." But this verse again makes it clear that the issue is unbelief, and not works.

My question for those who believe in their own self-righteousness... is that "highmindedness?" I thank God for his grace extended to me a rebel. I am not now a rebel, but that is only by Gods grace. He grafted me, a wild olive branch, into his grace. His grace did not belong to me. He did not owe it to me. I did not deserve it in any way. I had only debt, wrath, judgment. But God circumcised my heart and I was saved by his grace through faith. I stay saved in the same way. I am now in Christ. If I be cut off, I will be cut off with Christ my savior.

 

[watchman F]

[quote="watchman F":16vrvv2e]Another scripture that proves OSAS is false in Colossians 1:21-23

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.

The promise of being presented holy and unblameable and unreproveable is conditional to continuing in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel.

Any of you false hyper grace , OSAS, eternal security teachers going to take a crack at this passage?[/quote:16vrvv2e]I guess not, the motto must be if i can't pervert it to say what I want then i will just ignore it huh?

 

[archangel_300]

[quote="watchman F":1kxnnrtj][quote="watchman F":1kxnnrtj]Another scripture that proves OSAS is false in Colossians 1:21-23

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.

The promise of being presented holy and unblameable and unreproveable is conditional to continuing in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel.

Any of you false hyper grace , OSAS, eternal security teachers going to take a crack at this passage?[/quote:1kxnnrtj]I guess not, the motto must be if i can't pervert it to say what I want then i will just ignore it huh?[/quote:1kxnnrtj]

If that's the case and you can lose your salvation, how many sins does it take to lose your salvation?
I can guarantee you it will only take one.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi there

If you interpret verse 8 to read - that if you sow to the Spirit, and that it is in sowing to the Spirit that you reap eternal life. Then you are claiming salvation by works ! And the Word is clear, that we are saved by grace and not by works ![/quote]
MM, it says the "one who sows" is that not an action statement on our part? there are things we must do when we are saved.[/quote]


Hi Darcy

We who have Christ in us, should not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit. If we walk after the Spirit we then will sow to the Spirit. Galatians 5:22 & 23 fruit of the Spirit - Love, Joy, peace , longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance : Walking in the Spirit, is sowing in the Spirit.

Bless

 

[watchman F]

[quote="watchman F":2mrkxy97]Another scripture that proves OSAS is false in Colossians 1:21-23

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.

The promise of being presented holy and unblameable and unreproveable is conditional to continuing in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel.

If that's the case and you can lose your salvation, how many sins does it take to lose your salvation?
I can guarantee you it will only take one.[/quote:2mrkxy97]the text itself tells us how we ''loose'' our savation, and that is by not continuing in the faith, and being moved away from the hope of the gospel