Once Saved, Always Saved?

[DarcyLu]

Hi there

If you interpret verse 8 to read - that if you sow to the Spirit, and that it is in sowing to the Spirit that you reap eternal life. Then you are claiming salvation by works ! And the Word is clear, that we are saved by grace and not by works !

MM, it says the "one who sows" is that not an action statement on our part? there are things we must do when we are saved.

Hi Darcy

We who have Christ in us, should not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit. If we walk after the Spirit we then will sow to the Spirit. Galatians 5:22 & 23 fruit of the Spirit - Love, Joy, peace , longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance : Walking in the Spirit, is sowing in the Spirit.

Bless

hi MM,
you do see how the Word says, "If we walk after the Spirit", it's conditional, we must remain in Him, we have to do our part.
John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi there

If you interpret verse 8 to read - that if you sow to the Spirit, and that it is in sowing to the Spirit that you reap eternal life. Then you are claiming salvation by works ! And the Word is clear, that we are saved by grace and not by works !

MM, it says the "one who sows" is that not an action statement on our part? there are things we must do when we are saved.

Hi Darcy

We who have Christ in us, should not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit. If we walk after the Spirit we then will sow to the Spirit. Galatians 5:22 & 23 fruit of the Spirit - Love, Joy, peace , longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance : Walking in the Spirit, is sowing in the Spirit.

Bless

hi MM,
you do see how the Word says, "If we walk after the Spirit", it's conditional, we must remain in Him, we have to do our part.
John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Hi Darcy

Yes it is conditional. But conditional upon what ?

If you don't bear fruit it is taken away. But what is taken away ?

Fruit , right ?

The fruit of righteousness - Philippians 1:11

Philippians 4:17 - "Not that I desire a gift : but I desire fruit that may abound to your account"

Colossians 1:10 - "That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God"

All of this is talking about -- fruit ---- producing fruit and walking in the Spirit.

So what is the consequence for not producing fruit ? The answer is, a loss of rewards and fire will try every man's work. This is why it states in I Corinthians 3:13 & 14 & 15 > >


Verse 13 - Every man's work shall be made manifest : for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire ; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Verse 14 - "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward"

Verse 15 - "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss : but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire"

Don't let anyone fool or trick you into believing that you can loose your salvation. It is not true ! Rewards , yes, you can loose them. Salvation, NO !

 

[chestertonrules]

Don't let anyone fool or trick you into believing that you can loose your salvation. It is not true ! Rewards , yes, you can loose them. Salvation, NO !

Heb 10:26
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

John 15
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

2 Pet 2:20
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

Rom 2
6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.â€a 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

 

[mondar]

Any of you false hyper grace , OSAS, eternal security teachers going to take a crack at this passage?

I would be happy to consider any passage, but whenever I address the context of one passage, people just jump to another passage. We were talking about Roman 11 and the impossibility (or possibility) of the "cut off" clause referring to a loss of salvation.

Also, "hyper-grace" is not a correct term. The usual protestant view is "sola gratia" or grace alone. I admit that not all under the banner of protestantism embrace the "grace alone" or the sola fide "faith alone" position. There are many Pelagians or at least semi-pelagians within so called protestant ranks. I think of the theology of Charles Finney and some of the revivalists. It would be preferable not to change the historic language of "grace alone," and inject emotional language into the conversation. However, I do not mean to assume that you are protestant.

 

[ronniechoate34]

Once saved,,,take care not to shipwreck your faith.

 

[francisdesales]

Don't let anyone fool or trick you into believing that you can loose your salvation. It is not true ! Rewards , yes, you can loose them. Salvation, NO !

Yes, lost rewards = eternal damnation, that place where the disqualified go, those invited to the feast, but don't bring their wedding robe (the saint's good works, according to Revelation).

By the way, you are confusing "salvation" with "eternal heaven". The former does not always lead to the later, which is why one can lose the later. Salvation happened and cannot be lost, but it doesn't always lead to the later, heaven.

 

[Mysteryman]

Don't let anyone fool or trick you into believing that you can loose your salvation. It is not true ! Rewards , yes, you can loose them. Salvation, NO !

Yes, lost rewards = eternal damnation, that place where the disqualified go, those invited to the feast, but don't bring their wedding robe (the saint's good works, according to Revelation).

By the way, you are confusing "salvation" with "eternal heaven". The former does not always lead to the later, which is why one can lose the later. Salvation happened and cannot be lost, but it doesn't always lead to the later, heaven.

Hi francis

Could you elaborate with scripture ?

 

[watchman F]

Any of you false hyper grace , OSAS, eternal security teachers going to take a crack at this passage?

I would be happy to consider any passage, but whenever I address the context of one passage, people just jump to another passage. We were talking about Roman 11 and the impossibility (or possibility) of the "cut off" clause referring to a loss of salvation.

Also, "hyper-grace" is not a correct term. The usual protestant view is "sola gratia" or grace alone. I admit that not all under the banner of protestantism embrace the "grace alone" or the sola fide "faith alone" position. There are many Pelagians or at least semi-pelagians within so called protestant ranks. I think of the theology of Charles Finney and some of the revivalists. It would be preferable not to change the historic language of "grace alone," and inject emotional language into the conversation. However, I do not mean to assume that you are protestant.

OSAS teaches hyper grace, google it.

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;


Now if you could explain this passage away.

 

[mondar]

[quote="watchman F":2iz54uvt]Any of you false hyper grace , OSAS, eternal security teachers going to take a crack at this passage?

I would be happy to consider any passage, but whenever I address the context of one passage, people just jump to another passage. We were talking about Roman 11 and the impossibility (or possibility) of the "cut off" clause referring to a loss of salvation.

Also, "hyper-grace" is not a correct term. The usual protestant view is "sola gratia" or grace alone. I admit that not all under the banner of protestantism embrace the "grace alone" or the sola fide "faith alone" position. There are many Pelagians or at least semi-pelagians within so called protestant ranks. I think of the theology of Charles Finney and some of the revivalists. It would be preferable not to change the historic language of "grace alone," and inject emotional language into the conversation. However, I do not mean to assume that you are protestant.

OSAS teaches hyper grace, google it. [/quote:2iz54uvt]
OK, I googled it and got now worth while results, can you name one web page that calls OSAS a "hyper-grace position?"

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;


Now if you could explain this passage away.

Interesting the way you phrase things.... "explain this passage away." But hey, its a public forum, you can get as nasty as you want, I guess. I am also very passionate about my theology, but when passions bring us to express ourselves like you are, no conversation is better.

 

[watchman F]

I would be happy to consider any passage, but whenever I address the context of one passage, people just jump to another passage. We were talking about Roman 11 and the impossibility (or possibility) of the "cut off" clause referring to a loss of salvation.

Also, "hyper-grace" is not a correct term. The usual protestant view is "sola gratia" or grace alone. I admit that not all under the banner of protestantism embrace the "grace alone" or the sola fide "faith alone" position. There are many Pelagians or at least semi-pelagians within so called protestant ranks. I think of the theology of Charles Finney and some of the revivalists. It would be preferable not to change the historic language of "grace alone," and inject emotional language into the conversation. However, I do not mean to assume that you are protestant.

OSAS teaches hyper grace, google it.

OK, I googled it and got now worth while results, can you name one web page that calls OSAS a "hyper-grace position?"

[quote="watchman F":1id5htq7]
Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;


Now if you could explain this passage away.

Interesting the way you phrase things.... "explain this passage away." But hey, its a public forum, you can get as nasty as you want, I guess. I am also very passionate about my theology, but when passions bring us to express ourselves like you are, no conversation is better.[/quote:1id5htq7]What i take from this is...''I cannot explain this one away, so i will just ignore it''

 

[archangel_300]

[quote="watchman F":23jys01c]Any of you false hyper grace , OSAS, eternal security teachers going to take a crack at this passage?

I would be happy to consider any passage, but whenever I address the context of one passage, people just jump to another passage. We were talking about Roman 11 and the impossibility (or possibility) of the "cut off" clause referring to a loss of salvation.

Also, "hyper-grace" is not a correct term. The usual protestant view is "sola gratia" or grace alone. I admit that not all under the banner of protestantism embrace the "grace alone" or the sola fide "faith alone" position. There are many Pelagians or at least semi-pelagians within so called protestant ranks. I think of the theology of Charles Finney and some of the revivalists. It would be preferable not to change the historic language of "grace alone," and inject emotional language into the conversation. However, I do not mean to assume that you are protestant.

OSAS teaches hyper grace, google it.

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;


Now if you could explain this passage away.[/quote:23jys01c]


Watchman, I can take one verse from scripture and make it say what I want to say.
For instance I can use 1 John 4:14 to prove that *every single* human being is saved and everyone goes to heaven. But in order to correctly come to a conclusion about a particular verse it needs to stand the test of being in harmony with the rest of what scripture says. God is not a God of contradictions.

The scriptures clearly teach that we are justified by crucifixion of Christ alone not by anything we do.
If salvation is dependent upon me keeping my faith then it is no longer dependent on the cross and Christ died in vain.

Faith encompasses belief in God (Hebrews 11:1) as well as works (James 2). This what the scripture defines as saving faith. If you are saying that as long as we keep our faith we keep our salvation what you are indeed saying is that if we keep our belief in God as well as our good works we can go to heaven.

When Christ died on the cross he *paid* for our sin. This meant he experienced the suffering under God's wrath we should have experienced if we had to go through damnation for all the sins we commit in our lifetime. This is the reason why we cannot attain salvation through our own merits nor of us keeping our faith. The price to be paid for sin is eternal death (Romans 6:23) and only Christ was able to do this for us on our behalf. He was the perfect human substitute for my sin. It's not like "Ok you have faith and so now you are saved. You draw back and now you are not.". Someone's possession of faith doesn't negate the fact that there is a very steep price for sin that needs to be paid for in full.
In order for anyone to get to heaven it is dependent upon this price for sin being completely paid for.

 

[watchman F]

[quote="watchman F":hwsljnob]
OSAS teaches hyper grace, google it.

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;


Now if you could explain this passage away.

Watchman, I can take one verse from scripture and make it say what I want to say.
For instance I can use 1 John 4:14 to prove that *every single* human being is saved and everyone goes to heaven. But in order to correctly come to a conclusion about a particular verse it needs to stand the test of being in harmony with the rest of what scripture says. God is not a God of contradictions.[/quote:hwsljnob]So any passage of scripture that you do not agree with you will just ignore?

 

[francisdesales]

Don't let anyone fool or trick you into believing that you can loose your salvation. It is not true ! Rewards , yes, you can loose them. Salvation, NO !

Yes, lost rewards = eternal damnation, that place where the disqualified go, those invited to the feast, but don't bring their wedding robe (the saint's good works, according to Revelation).

By the way, you are confusing "salvation" with "eternal heaven". The former does not always lead to the later, which is why one can lose the later. Salvation happened and cannot be lost, but it doesn't always lead to the later, heaven.

Hi francis

Could you elaborate with scripture ?

where does Jesus speak of "lesser rewards" for not doing His will or bearing good fruit???? He either speaks of eternal life, union with God OR eternal damnation, expulsion from the feast where there will be a chattering of teeth, etc., unto eternal damnation. In every case I have read, either one is cut off and cast into the fire or cast out into the night. Not exactly "lesser rewards"...

Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt 8:10b-12

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen. Matt 22:11-14

Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth Matt 25:26-31

This is just from Matthew and from the words of Jesus. I could continue on and on, but this is plenty.

There is no rewards for being cast out into the night. Being disqualified means NO rewards. Not lesser rewards...

 

[mondar]

What i take from this is...''I cannot explain this one away, so i will just ignore it''

watchman, promise me you will stop the trash talking and then we can discuss the passage.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi francis

Could you elaborate with scripture ?[/quote]

where does Jesus speak of "lesser rewards" for not doing His will or bearing good fruit???? He either speaks of eternal life, union with God OR eternal damnation, expulsion from the feast where there will be a chattering of teeth, etc., unto eternal damnation. In every case I have read, either one is cut off and cast into the fire or cast out into the night. Not exactly "lesser rewards"...

Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt 8:10b-12

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen. Matt 22:11-14

Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth Matt 25:26-31

This is just from Matthew and from the words of Jesus. I could continue on and on, but this is plenty.

There is no rewards for being cast out into the night. Being disqualified means NO rewards. Not lesser rewards...[/quote]


Hi Francis

It just amazes me that you would even consider verses pertaining to those whom are children of the devil, and even imply that these verses are talking about Christians who are born again of God's Spirit.

These promises of God are unto those who are not children of God, born of God's Spirit. !

The promises of God are true, that we shall be saved , yet by as of fire, but our rewards can be burned up !

 

[watchman F]

What i take from this is...''I cannot explain this one away, so i will just ignore it''

watchman, promise me you will stop the trash talking and then we can discuss the passage.

ok

 

[watchman F]

OK, I googled it and got now worth while results, can you name one web page that calls OSAS a "hyper-grace position?"

My fault mondar try ''free grace'' and or easy believism

 

[mondar]

OK, I googled it and got now worth while results, can you name one web page that calls OSAS a "hyper-grace position?"

My fault mondar try ''free grace'' and or easy believism

Yes, a common accusation against OSAS is "easy believism." However, the history behind that discussion does not relate to falling from Grace. That term was coined by people who lean more to the Reformed side. People like James Boice, or John MacArther. Of course it was John MacArther who wrote the controversial book "The Gospel of Jesus" defending the position that leans more Reformed. His book, along with the word coined "easy believism" comes out of the Reformed vs OSAS debate. I would also fall into the category of people that would side with the position commonly called "Lordship Salvation." There are aspects of the OSAS view I would not agree with, but neither do I think we can loose our salvation. I dont see that God removes regeneration, or justification. If we are declared just on the basis of Christs blood, then we are not declared unjust on the basis of our sin. I would say that once a person is given the new nature (regeneration) this will result in that person continuing in righteous living. The person who does not abide in Christ, is a person without root, a person who was never regenerated and justified.

Going to bed, we can talk more some other day. I assume that we can still talk about the Colossians text? And that there will be no more trash talking?

 

[glorydaz]

On any particular issue, from whatever point of view, why do people list verses as though they prove something? Is the assumption that the longer the list, the better the proof? I often observe that most the time such behavior occurs, the verses used are not used in proper context.

Would it not be better to select what you believe is the best verse to state a point, and then we can discuss the context of that one verse?

Are the lists of verses a debating tactic where if you quote 9 verses out of context, maybe at least one of them are quoted in context?

 

[glorydaz]

I do believe in OSAS and I think anyone that doesn't is walking on a very dangerous fine line towards a works+grace gospel. Think about it this way, what can we do to lose our salvation? You may think well I can do A,B and/or C and then that means I've lost my salvation. Well this means on the flip side if there is something that you can do to lose your salvation there is something you *must* do to keep your salvation (namely do not do A,B and/or C). Thus this means that salvation is dependent upon your works and not God's grace and the cross of Christ alone. The scriptures warn very carefully that if we attempt to obey the law for salvation we are under a curse to obey it perfectly in order to attain it. This we know is not possible (Galatians 2:16,Galatians 3:10) Once we have been saved we have inherited eternal life and that means it's life that never ends and the second death cannot conquer us. We have passed from death to life. (John 5:24,Romans 8:1-2)

If salvation is dependent upon us in an way shape or form this negates the cross of Christ and renders it meaningless. You need to understand how the blood of Christ saves us in order to fully understand OSAS.

Many of the scripture verses stated that "disprove OSAS" are taken out of their correct context.
They need to be read and compared with the rest of scripture in order to understand them. Some scripture verses are not referring to those who have been saved but rather those that may have come close to salvation but never really attained it.