ONE EDUCATED PERSPECTIVE ON "WHO IS SATAN?"

[Randy]

I believe Jesus was driven into the desert by the Holy Spirit to test His human nature to see what He as God and man would do before He would begin His official ministry as Rabbi.
You hold that Lucifer tempted Him, but Scripture says the angels that sinned are locked up. With this in mind another understanding of Jesus' temptation is necessary.
You don't believe James and Jude and Isaiah. Plain and simple and I am troubled you'd reject their revelation in order to continue to hold and believe that the "devil" which is an adjective is a noun in your mind and that despite what James said about temptation coming from within you continue to believe erroneously that His temptation was from without. You haven't considered the ramifications of what you believe and that means in regard to Jesus being our High Priest and the Scripture in Hebrew that He was tempted in every way as we are but without sin. If our temptation is from within and Jesus' was from without, then this creates a problem. There are not two ways of being tempted. If there were two ways they would be described in Scripture. But there isn't. There is only ONE way in which every human is tempted including Jesus and that is in accordance with the teaching of James 1:14.
It is no sin to be tempted. It is a sin to lust, but we don't, and I emphasize DON'T know what it means to have two natures like Jesus [human] Christ [God] as we only have one. So, I make accommodation for this truth about the Lord.
At least I am allowing Scripture and the Holy Spirit dictate what I am to believe. You and others on the other hand are just regurgitating that garbage about Lucifer that I USED TO BELIEVE in.
When a Scripture challenges my beliefs I am bound as a child of God and of truth to incorporate it into my belief-system and if I have to let go of a former belief I LET GO!
I study Hebrew and Greek. I don't take my doctrine from a translation I take it from the original language of the Scripture.
I accordance to my place in the body of Christ and my calling and my gifts I must follow what God is directing me even if it is not accepted by others. The whole history of the doctrinal understanding we have of Scripture today didn't just come in one day. Brethren were used of God to bring in each generation from glory to glory dependent on the amount of light of understanding He gives us. Doctrine is progressive. It is being built just as Jesus said it would. Many brethren in the past have been used of God to bring new revelation of His Word and many brethren that held a minority view at the time have been vindicated because their minority view that went against the grain of the Church is now a major doctrine upon which we see God according to Scripture and not in the vanity of our minds.
Until the Lord adds to my understanding on this subject I cannot in good conscience let what I believe go because the majority hold to something different. If 50 million people say a wrong thing, it is STILL a wrong thing.
See you on another post.
Do yourself a favor if you are true born of God...do some thinking and reasoning and search a subject out. Don't just regurgitate what you read in books and on the internet.
From your elder, jeremiah.

I read the devil tempted Him that is Satan. Which should point out to you He isn't now bound. Didn't you read that?

 

[Randy]

And Peter and Jude say the angels that sinned are locked up.
What do you do when you have seemingly two opposing Scriptures against each other? Choose the one that fits your beliefs?
If you do that, you're in error. We are instructed as Christ followers to ask, seek, and knock. That's what distinguishes me from you.

Satan fell from heaven to the earth as we read in Rev 12.
We know the Angel of the Abyss is bound now so somebody did get bound in the Abyss. A star that had fallen from heaven to the earth was given the key to the abyss to release those bound.

 

[jeremiah1five]

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

jeremiah1five who is the me in the above verse Matthew 4:9 ?

I already said Jesus walked up to the Temple, climbed the stairs and went out to the pinnacle. Jesus is a man. And men get tempted. The human nature was being tested. Neither you nor I can even begin to imagine what it's like to have a human nature and a Deific nature, but Messiah is a man as much as He is God. Why don't you think about it because Peter and Jude say the angels that sinned are locked up.
For you to make this term "devil" and "Satan" and angel and out of his chains you have to reject Peter and Jude. That's what you're doing. I DON'T reject what they said but I accept what they said and have to revise my beliefs accordingly and reconsider that I can't make an adjective into a person. So, who's REALLY in obedience to the Word? You? There's no obedience in rejecting Christ.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Because you've changed your mind about something does not make every other person on a thread wrong.

Question:

Was Jesus born with the sin nature?

It does if I'm right.
In order to make "devil" and "Satan" a person you have to reject Peter 2 2:4 and Jude 1:6 and turn an adjective into a noun which is grammatically impossible. I mean, you can do it, but you won't come to the knowledge of the truth. I don't reject Peter and Jude that says the angels that sinned were cast down to hell delivered in chains of darkness awaiting judgment day, I accept their statements as true. And since there is no history of any angels named "Satan" (Lucifer) in the Old Testament there is no precedence and if there's no Old Testament precedence there is no New Testament reality.
After Lucifer was locked up in Isaiah 14 (700 B.C.) you don't read his name anywhere in Scripture. Why is that? Not once is his name mentioned. Lucifer is a personal pronoun. "Satan" and "devil" are adjectives. They are descriptive terms and Jesus called Peter "Satan" and Judas "devil." Why would the Lord make such a mistake? He didn't say Peter was acting like "Satan," He said Peter was "Satan" and called him "Satan."
No, I am not the one in error.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I read the devil tempted Him that is Satan. Which should point out to you He isn't now bound. Didn't you read that?

Peter, Jude, and Isaiah say that the angels that sinned were cast down to hell, delivered in chains of darkness reserved to the judgment day.
To make an adjective "devil" into a noun or personal pronoun is grammatically impossible.
Why aren't you looking at that? I have and I'm not the one doing it to get the interpretation I want. I'm letting the Scripture tell me what to believe, I'm not telling Scripture what to say.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Satan fell from heaven to the earth as we read in Rev 12.
We know the Angel of the Abyss is bound now so somebody did get bound in the Abyss. A star that had fallen from heaven to the earth was given the key to the abyss to release those bound.

Hell, and bottomless pit are not the same thing.
And the star that fell from heaven is one of God's good angels to open the pit and loose the locusts. Let me guess, you think the locusts are fallen angels.

 

[GodsGrace]

It does if I'm right.
In order to make "devil" and "Satan" a person you have to reject Peter 2 2:4 and Jude 1:6 and turn an adjective into a noun which is grammatically impossible. I mean, you can do it, but you won't come to the knowledge of the truth. I don't reject Peter and Jude that says the angels that sinned were cast down to hell delivered in chains of darkness awaiting judgment day, I accept their statements as true. And since there is no history of any angels named "Satan" (Lucifer) in the Old Testament there is no precedence and if there's no Old Testament precedence there is no New Testament reality.

Problem 1:
You, OTOH, are obsessed with 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6.
You are taking 2 verses and creating an entire theology with them.
This is not proper hermeneutics where everything must be taken into account.

Have you noticed that Jesus spoke of the devil?

Problem 2:

If it's not shadowed in the OT then the NT has no reality?
Does this mean that you pay no attention to what Jesus taught?
Perhaps you're not a Christian.
But your avatar says you are.

After Lucifer was locked up in Isaiah 14 (700 B.C.) you don't read his name anywhere in Scripture. Why is that? Not once is his name mentioned. Lucifer is a personal pronoun. "Satan" and "devil" are adjectives. They are descriptive terms and Jesus called Peter "Satan" and Judas "devil." Why would the Lord make such a mistake? He didn't say Peter was acting like "Satan," He said Peter was "Satan" and called him "Satan."
No, I am not the one in error.

Satan is not mentioned after Isaiah?

Look at this:

Luke 22:31
31“Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift each of you like wheat.
Does that sound like an adjective to you, or like a person asking for Simon?

James 4:7
7Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Do adjectives flee from a person?

1 Peter 5:8-9
8Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.
9Stand firm against him, and be strong in your faith.
In the OT, God addressed the serpent first.
The serpent represented the devil.
Genesis 3:14
14Then the LORD God said to the serpent,


You should understand that God revealed Himself as man could understand Him at any given moment in time.
Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God and we're to look to Him for guidance.

You either believe Jesus, or you don't.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I read the devil tempted Him that is Satan. Which should point out to you He isn't now bound. Didn't you read that?

Then what do you do when there two seemingly contradictory Scriptures?
Pick the one that supports your theories?
Or do you make a sincere attempt to reason it out?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Problem 1:
You, OTOH, are obsessed with 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6.
You are taking 2 verses and creating an entire theology with them.
This is not proper hermeneutics where everything must be taken into account.

You're the one not taking into account that Peter and Jude say the angels that sinned are locked up.

Have you noticed that Jesus spoke of the devil?

Scripture, please.

Problem 2:
If it's not shadowed in the OT then the NT has no reality?
Does this mean that you pay no attention to what Jesus taught?
Perhaps you're not a Christian.
But your avatar says you are.

If it's not precedent in the Old Testament, then there is no New Testament reality.

Satan is not mentioned after Isaiah?

I said, Lucifer, not "Satan."

Look at this:
Luke 22:31
31“Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift each of you like wheat.
Does that sound like an adjective to you, or like a person asking for Simon?

And Jesus also called Peter "Satan." Not that he was acting like "Satan" but that he was "Satan."
He called Judas "devil."
So, Jesus has two apostles He's chosen from the pit of hell?

James 4:7
7Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Do adjectives flee from a person?

Resist "lies", and they will flee from you is biblical. Resist the urge to steal and the urge will flee from you and the Holy Spirit will come and minister to you. Resist the urge to get angry and cuss and shout in frustration and the urge will flee from you and the Holy Spirit will come and minister to you.

1 Peter 5:8-9
8Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.
9Stand firm against him, and be strong in your faith.
In the OT, God addressed the serpent first.
The serpent represented the devil.
Genesis 3:14
14Then the LORD God said to the serpent,

You make Lucifer every bad thing in Scripture. Lucifer was not the serpent. Lucifer and the angels that sinned were locked up before God created man.

You should understand that God revealed Himself as man could understand Him at any given moment in time.
Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God and we're to look to Him for guidance.
You either believe Jesus, or you don't.

Let's test who's believing Jesus and who isn't.

Do you believe Peter and Jude that say the angels that sinned are locked up?

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2 Peter 2:4.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jude 6.

And here is the precedent in the Old Testament:

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Is 14:15.

Do you believe Peter and Jude who said the angels that sinned are locked up? Yea or nay?

You see, I am providing precedent in the Old Testament to provide reality in the New Testament. But you can't do that with Lucifer. You want to make him "Satan," "devil," "serpent," and every evil thing in Scripture.
You don't believe in learning Hebrew and Greek, the original languages of the Scripture. But the original languages are important to ascertain what God says to His people. You prefer to get your theology from a translation and that is not a good idea because you can't get doctrine from a translation. You have to look at the original languages to know what God said about something.

Those statements by Peter and Jude should stop you dead in your tracks and cause you to study further whether you are believing true teaching or if you need to revise your holding/beliefs. Because to just ignore them is not what a true believer should do. And you ignore them and don't even answer them.

 

[gordon777]

Jesus is a man. If Jesus didn't have lust as man, then the temptation was a sham.
Jesus Christ was also a man. His human nature was being tested not the Logos.

Temptation is a suffering. And temptation is what Jesus went through as a man.

You ignore Jesus being a man. And if He didn't have any lust for bread then His temptation is a sham, a fake, a fraud.

Adding to Scripture.

You say it but neither understand it nor believe.

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:14-15.

I see you posted a Scripture from Peter. Do you believe Peter spoke by the Holy Spirit?
How about James and Jude? Did they write under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

Jesus was not enticed, nor can He be enticed.

Feeling of weaknesses, is not being enticed, being enticed is when drawn away of our ( men of this world) own lusts.

Lust of the flesh is not of the Father, it is only of this world, Jesus is NOT OF THIS WORLD. ( Christ the Son of God does the will of the Father, NOT THE WILL OF MAN.)

So what if you do not agree to the verses which show you stick like glue to just one verse, it means you are limited, when the scriptures are in turn unlimited, always showing righteousness against unrighteousness. ( its easy to answer you, and always with the power of Gods word, and only because they encourage debate on a forum do they welcome the chatter.



John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.


1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.



You are right it is not a proper test, for Jesus to not be prone to lusts, but it does not have to be, because we would have no purpose to be born again of Christ, if he is no better ( holy) than any other man.



Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;


Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, ( undefiled-without lusts) separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

1 Peter 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

[gordon777]

Why is there little sense shown from you guys writing in this thread ?

Everybody can see it is easy to answer Jeremiah 1, not difficult at all, where is the persons wisdom, where is his strength of thought, where any credibility should be shown to a person who wont accept anything whatsoever, apart from his own ideas ?

Do you guys love discussions so much you find it impossible to halt, even though it is like being hamsters on a wheel ?

 

[GodsGrace]

You're the one not taking into account that Peter and Jude say the angels that sinned are locked up.

Scripture, please.

If it's not precedent in the Old Testament, then there is no New Testament reality.

I said, Lucifer, not "Satan."

And Jesus also called Peter "Satan." Not that he was acting like "Satan" but that he was "Satan."
He called Judas "devil."
So, Jesus has two apostles He's chosen from the pit of hell?

Resist "lies", and they will flee from you is biblical. Resist the urge to steal and the urge will flee from you and the Holy Spirit will come and minister to you. Resist the urge to get angry and cuss and shout in frustration and the urge will flee from you and the Holy Spirit will come and minister to you.

You make Lucifer every bad thing in Scripture. Lucifer was not the serpent. Lucifer and the angels that sinned were locked up before God created man.

Let's test who's believing Jesus and who isn't.

Do you believe Peter and Jude that say the angels that sinned are locked up?

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2 Peter 2:4.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jude 6.

And here is the precedent in the Old Testament:

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Is 14:15.

Do you believe Peter and Jude who said the angels that sinned are locked up? Yea or nay?

You see, I am providing precedent in the Old Testament to provide reality in the New Testament. But you can't do that with Lucifer. You want to make him "Satan," "devil," "serpent," and every evil thing in Scripture.
You don't believe in learning Hebrew and Greek, the original languages of the Scripture. But the original languages are important to ascertain what God says to His people. You prefer to get your theology from a translation and that is not a good idea because you can't get doctrine from a translation. You have to look at the original languages to know what God said about something.

Those statements by Peter and Jude should stop you dead in your tracks and cause you to study further whether you are believing true teaching or if you need to revise your holding/beliefs. Because to just ignore them is not what a true believer should do. And you ignore them and don't even answer them.

You believe Jesus was born with the sin nature in order to uphold your theory.

Nothing more to say since you believe Jesus was a sinner just like you and me.

 

[gordon777]

Here is a new idea to add to your forum rules, if somebody cannot consent to the wholesome words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, that is not an opportunity to do ,lots of discussion because of the unreasonablen3ss shown constantly, it is a mistake for everybody to engage in it.

I wont reply in this thread any more, and so bad if you guys also wont be told, even as that guy wont care about anything said whatsever.


1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

 

[gordon777]

A last word though, Jeremiah 1 quotes part of scriptures, never many together, from what he tries to make points about. If somebody makes a point about God, that should be in total detail, not partial.

Also nobody can believe in Jesus Christ being free from sin, unless they believe in being freed by Him, ( from sin and believe in being born of Him to be the same as Him) or it is all deceptive.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why is there little sense shown from you guys writing in this thread ?

Everybody can see it is easy to answer Jeremiah 1, not difficult at all, where is the persons wisdom, where is his strength of thought, where any credibility should be shown to a person who wont accept anything whatsoever, apart from his own ideas ?

Do you guys love discussions so much you find it impossible to halt, even though it is like being hamsters on a wheel ?

THE THEOLOGY FORUM IS FOR THEOLOGICAL DISCUSSIONS.

PLEASE DO NOT MAKE PERSONAL REMARKS INTENDED FOR MEMBERS.
THANKS

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST IN THIS THREAD.
USE TALK WITH STAFF IF NECESSARY.

 

[GodsGrace]

Here is a new idea to add to your forum rules, if somebody cannot consent to the wholesome words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, that is not an opportunity to do ,lots of discussion because of the unreasonablen3ss shown constantly, it is a mistake for everybody to engage in it.

I wont reply in this thread any more, and so bad if you guys also wont be told, even as that guy wont care about anything said whatsever.


1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

Take this to TWTS if you like.

 

[gordon777]

Take this to TWTS if you like.

nah, if you dont see the scriptures telling all what to do, I wont at all be telling you all what to do.

 

[gordon777]

I wonder why people can make all those personal remarks about God, yet we have to wait until the judgement comes for all the hard things ungodly sinners have spoken about Him.



Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

[gordon777]

I will have an educated perspective on who is Satan, it is on all who allow evil in this world. ( and do so in Gods name.)

 

[Free]

Israel never dealt with "Satan" [adversary] or "demons" in their history the way the Gentile Church believes them to be except where the word "satan" is used in describing a human adversary.

The word "satan" is used for more than a human adversary in the OT (Job 1:6-12; the serpent of Genesis 3, for example). Also, demons are mentioned in the OT (Deut 32:17; Psa 106:37).

And if there is no Old Testament precedent there is no New Testament reality.

First, your conclusion doesn't follow. Second, there is much in the NT that supports a specific being called Satan and the devil, and his minions, which are called demons.