Bible Study Only the children will go in--Numbers 14:31

[Eugene]

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JLB, I will then ask you, did those that fell in the desert go to hell or paradise at that time before Jesus died? I don't quite know another way how to make it to be a type of the church. They drank of the Spiritual Rock Christ; did they lose their salvation?
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[JLB]

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JLB, I will then ask you, did those that fell in the desert go to hell or paradise at that time before Jesus died? I don't quite know another way how to make it to be a type of the church. They drank of the Spiritual Rock Christ; did they lose their salvation?
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Let's examine the scriptures and content of what Paul warns us about here, with other scriptures in the New Testament.


Be fore I answer, I would ask Jethro to comment on your question, using the scripture I posted and it,s contents.

If he approves, then I will answer you, however I want his input and approval before I do, since he may have another direction for this thread, and I don't want to derail what he is doing here.

all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:2-4



Thanks JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

the Lord was present with them as they wandered in the wilderness and they were already subject to the Kingdom of Heaven before they ever reached the Promised Land.

They did belong to the Lord all along. Even in their wilderness wanderings. But I suspect the immediate death of the ten spies means something different than the community itself that were allowed to live but die off slowly. I don't know.

Moses did not enter the Promised Land.

But Moses spoke with The Lord. Who then could say that Moses did not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?

We see Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration, so we know his 'exile' was not unto death so to speak (Matthew 17:2-3), in the sense of how the 10 spies died. .

 

[Jethro Bodine]

.
JLB, I will then ask you, did those that fell in the desert go to hell or paradise at that time before Jesus died? I don't quite know another way how to make it to be a type of the church. They drank of the Spiritual Rock Christ; did they lose their salvation?
.

Some may have, some may not have. This is why I don't categorically say being denied the Promised Land signifies eternal separation from God. Only God knows the true reason why a person falls into disobedience/unbelief. That being true we simply can't determine who in the OT sinned to their eternal harm and who did not. I don't believe the illustrations given us in the OT were intended to directly and exactly dictate their eternal destiny. There are other elements of judgment that those stories simply do not address.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:2-4

This to me clearly signifies a true saving relationship with God.
Because of other information in the Bible I don't think it means that, categorically, everyone who gets locked out of the Promised Land did not lose that salvation. I'm confident some OT folk lost Promised Land privileges and most certainly were also lost eternally speaking.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm okay with a short trip down the path we're going, but the thread really is about the nature of the adult warriors that were barred from the Promised Land and the nature of their fruit, I mean children, who were not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro Bodine, what happened to those not allowed to go into Canaan?
I know they died; did they go to heaven in your opinion?

It depended on their relationship with God. I think some are eternally lost, while some are not.

What blessing were they denied?

From a strictly literal understanding of the story they were denied the tangible, manifest blessing of the covenant--peace, and safety from their enemies, abundant food, etc.

From a spiritual viewpoint, the story signifies how the people of God lose the manifest spiritual blessing of being in covenant with God--that is they lose the promise of peace, joy, love, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, and so on, because of faithless disobedience. The blessing the church loses when they disobey God's command to go in and defeat and kill and drive out the enemy (sin) that holds their rightful blessing is replaced by being assigned a place in the desert until such a time that they are transformed into people who will be faithful and fearless to bind up the strongman and lay hold of that which the strong man withholds from them:

"if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29“Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house." (Matthew 12:28-29 NASB)


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[JLB]

I'm confident some OT folk lost Promised Land privileges and most certainly were also lost eternally speaking.

Yes sir, Moses would be at the top of that list.

However, we must differentiate what He did, that kept him out, and what the generation that left Egypt, who Paul describes for us in 1 Corinthians 10.

This should open dialog into another facet of this subject, that concerns the principle; to whom much is given, much is expected.

Moses had a direct relationship with God, and was the leader of the entire nation of Israel, and typified Jesus Christ.

It was through Moses that God showed forth the shadows and types of old, to the New Testament writers, Hebrews, who understood this concept of writing in a way that Gentiles did not.

Marring one of these types, would misrepresent the message, to those whom God had chosen to be teachers of the law, or writers of the new testament.

This seemingly "little" mistake is what kept Moses out of the promised land and signaled to those who read this account afterward, who would be teachers of the Law, or the writers of the New Testament, to disregard the additional "striking" as Moses doing and not God.

This was important to God, but not of the moral discrepancy of the children of Israel that Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 10.

Look at the list: Paul seems to be saddled with the burden of turning these Gentiles from idolatry and sexual immorality, of which we find those who practice these things will wind up in the lake of fire.

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 1 Corinthians 10:6-8

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8



JLB

 

[Chopper]

Wow, what a great thread Jethro. All the subsequent reply's are so interesting that I find this thread one that I can't resist in commenting on some of the questions to you....Can I have your permission to do that?

 

[JLB]

JLB, I will then ask you, did those that fell in the desert go to hell or paradise at that time before Jesus died?

What I can tell you for sure, is that all who fell in the desert, went down into the bowels of the earth.

30 But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.”
31 Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them, 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. 33 So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly. Numbers 16:30-33


What a waste it would be, if these who went alive down into hell, were disregarded by us, to whom this example of disobedience has come.


JLB

 

[ezrider]

Let's talk about how the principle of the fighting man not being allowed to enter into the promised blessings of God applies to the church.

I suppose that could be likened to it not being given to King David to build the temple of the Lord because he was a man of War.

1 Chronicles 28:2-3
Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building: But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.

 

[Eugene]

From a strictly literal understanding of the story they were denied the tangible, manifest blessing of the covenant--peace, and safety from their enemies, abundant food, etc.

From a spiritual viewpoint, the story signifies how the people of God lose the manifest spiritual blessing of being in covenant with God--that is they lose the promise of peace, joy, love, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, and so on, because of faithless disobedience. The blessing the church loses when they disobey God's command to go in and defeat and kill and drive out the enemy (sin) that holds their rightful blessing is replaced by being assigned a place in the desert until such a time that they are transformed into people who will be faithful and fearless to bind up the strongman and lay hold of that which the strong man withholds from them:

Good answer in my opinion that will not satisfy any not believing they presently possess eternal life.

Those murmuring against God in the wilderness did not believe God after seeing all He did among them
Num 14:22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

Heb 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

The sin of unbelief brings denial to better things as those falling in the wilderness. Moses suffered this same consequence.

Num 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Deut 32:52 Yet thou (Moses) shalt see the land before thee; but thou shalt not go thither unto the land which I give the children of Israel.

Deut 34:4 And the LORD said unto him (Moses), This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.

Numbers 20:12 . . . Because ye believed me not.
Deuteronomy 32:50 DIE in the mount whither thou goest up. Is Moses in hell?

Conclusion and I’m done: Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Are they in hell?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Wow, what a great thread Jethro. All the subsequent reply's are so interesting that I find this thread one that I can't resist in commenting on some of the questions to you....Can I have your permission to do that?

I insist that you offer your contribution wherever and whenever you like.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I suppose that could be likened to it not being given to King David to build the temple of the Lord because he was a man of War.

1 Chronicles 28:2-3
Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building: But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.

I definitely see application in this.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This should open dialog into another facet of this subject, that concerns the principle; to whom much is given, much is expected.

Surely this is true. I would suggest that's why the ten spies, who were leaders in their respective tribes, died immediately (Numbers 14:37-38) while the fighting men in the congregation survived but languished in the desert and eventually died off and were no longer found to be among the Israelites when the second numbering of the tribes was done some 38(?) years later (Numbers 26:63-65) just prior to the community entering into the Promised Land. The leaders were held to a higher standard and expectation of faith, therefore, their punishment was much more severe.

 

[Chopper]

I personally believe that this account of God not allowing the disobedient to enter the promised land has many examples that picture the Church of Jesus Christ and entrance into the Kingdom. The Promised Land = The New Jerusalem.

 

[Eugene]

I personally believe that this account of God not allowing the disobedient to enter the promised land has many examples that picture the Church of Jesus Christ and entrance into the Kingdom. The Promised Land = The New Jerusalem.

And so Brother Chopper, are you saying that Moses will not be in the New Jerusalem?
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[JLB]

Good answer in my opinion that will not satisfy any not believing they presently possess eternal life.

Those murmuring against God in the wilderness did not believe God after seeing all He did among them
Num 14:22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

Heb 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

The sin of unbelief brings denial to better things as those falling in the wilderness. Moses suffered this same consequence.

Num 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Deut 32:52 Yet thou (Moses) shalt see the land before thee; but thou shalt not go thither unto the land which I give the children of Israel.

Deut 34:4 And the LORD said unto him (Moses), This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.

Numbers 20:12 . . . Because ye believed me not.
Deuteronomy 32:50 DIE in the mount whither thou goest up. Is Moses in hell?

Conclusion and I’m done: Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Are they in hell?

Are they in hell?

Yes, they went to hell.

You've done two things here to support your position.

1. You trying to lump Moses, together with the disobedient and profane ones whom God Himself caused the earth to open up, and they went down to hell alive..."as though the drunkard could be included with the sober".
2. In doing the first, you tied all the Children of Israel together, as if they all don't get Judged individually, so that you make the smaller things that Moses erred in doing, the same as those who went down to hell alive.

We know for sure that Korah and those with him went alive down into hell.

Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them, 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. 33 So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly. Numbers 16:31-33

All the children of Israel, who died in the wilderness, whether they went down to hell alive, or they died from old age, all went down to the bowels of the earth. Some to paradise, and some to hell.


JLB

 

[JLB]

And so Brother Chopper, are you saying that Moses will not be in the New Jerusalem?
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Were all the children of Israel like Moses?


The Lord showed what happens to the rebellious, that threaten to cause the whole group to rebel.

They go to hell, just like Lucifer.

 

[JLB]

Surely this is true. I would suggest that's why the ten spies, who were leaders of their respective tribe, died immediately (Numbers 14:37-38) while the fighting men in the congregation survived but languished in the desert and eventually died off and were no longer found to be among the Israelites when the second numbering of the tribes was done some 38(?) years later (Numbers 26:63-65) just prior to the community entering into the Promised Land. The leaders were held to a higher standard and expectation of faith, therefore, their punishment was much more severe.

If Jesus would have submitted to even one little desire to do something out of His Father's will, we all would have been lost.


Lucifer's iniquity, caused those under his authority to be cast out with him.



JLB