Original sin

[Butch5]

the only problem i have with the age of accountability. is that the bible says we were born alienated from god.

minor but another topic.im not dogmatic on it, but my pastor was saved at age 3.

Jason,


Where do you find that teaching?

 

[jasoncran]

Jason,


Where do you find that teaching?

i believe it because by fault no man wants god. did you really want to come to christ. if you never heard of the gospel and the holy spirit didnt draw you would like us all die in your sins. i clearly remember the two times i rejected christ.

the first time for a week I KNEW it was God telling me to repent. the second time was when i was going to go more into the gay lifestyle. I knew i was wrong but i wanted it anyway. i wanted that man over god and if God didnt intefere i would been in that lifestyle today.

at the age of 10 i had the first unction to be with a boy. i knew then it was wrong and didnt have the power to stop.

calvinism teaches that.

if you believe that the father doesnt have or allow man at birth to be alienated from him then tell me why you dont believe god makes gays? i mean at age 10 with no one to tell me that it was right i had the urges,. i didnt see any gays or assoiciate with them but i did have the desire.
psalms 51:5

Behold, I was shaped in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

now i do believe as jeff does at some age when you are told what sin is then you are held accountable. but i dont buy the idea that the we are right with god at birth and sinless and have no tendency to sin.

 

[Webb]

Hi Jason

You ask: "What does the word chidren of wrath mean?" What does the phrase "children of God" mean" Children does not necessarily mean literal children.

You ask: "So where does that put the idea of the cross if our spirits are never alienated?" Who said "our spirits are never alienated"? I certainly didn't. The questionis not "never" but "when". What you need is scripture teaching alienation occurs before or at the time of birth. I assure you, there are none.

Again you ask: "I mean if the soul is perfect what happened to it? to cause death and separation?" The Bible answers: "the soul that sins, it shall die" Ezek.18:4. Note, "the soul that sins" not Adam's sin or the sin of any other, but "THE soul that sins." And, what about "separation"? Isa.59:2. "your iniquities have separated between you and your God and your sins have hid his face from you that he will not hear." Note, please, its YOUR INIQUITIES, YOUR SINS, not those of Adam or anothers, but YOURS.

Again, you wrote: "---if the soul is perfect and can't sin---.? Who said the soul "can't sin"? I did not. I have just quoted above that the soul can sin.

But in a previous post I cited Heb.12:9 which teaches the wonderful truth that God is the father of our spirits. Did you overlook that verse? Question: Does God father sinful, tainted, unclean spirits? I think not. What is needed but never found is that passage teaching God fathers sinful, unclean, lost and tainted spirits.

Have a blest night

 

[Butch5]

i believe it because by fault no man wants god. did you really want to come to christ. if you never heard of the gospel and the holy spirit didnt draw you would like us all die in your sins. i clearly remember the two times i rejected christ.

the first time for a week I KNEW it was God telling me to repent. the second time was when i was going to go more into the gay lifestyle. I knew i was wrong but i wanted it anyway. i wanted that man over god and if God didnt intefere i would been in that lifestyle today.


at the age of 10 i had the first unction to be with a boy. i knew then it was wrong and didnt have the power to stop.

calvinism teaches that.

if you believe that the father doesnt have or allow man at birth to be alienated from him then tell me why you dont believe god makes gays? i mean at age 10 with no one to tell me that it was right i had the urges,. i didnt see any gays or assoiciate with them but i did have the desire.psalms 51:5


now i do believe as jeff does at some age when you are told what sin is then you are held accountable. but i dont buy the idea that the we are right with god at birth and sinless and have no tendency to sin.

You say no man wants God. How do you know that? The aposlte John said Christ gives light (understanding) to everyone coming into the world.

Psalm 51 doesn't not say people are born alienated from God. It was David speaking of himself. It could be that he was using hyperbole, however, just because he may ahve been conceived in iniquity doesn't necessitate that everyone is.

 

[jasoncran]

You say no man wants God. How do you know that? The aposlte John said Christ gives light (understanding) to everyone coming into the world.

Psalm 51 doesn't not say people are born alienated from God. It was David speaking of himself. It could be that he was using hyperbole, however, just because he may ahve been conceived in iniquity doesn't necessitate that everyone is.

be honest, you dont covet god but sin. if that was the case then we wouldnt need god in the first place

"for none seeketh after rightoeusness no not one" hyperbole? really david a man who wrote much of the tanach and compiled parts of it? that david? he was humble.

i have seen a coworker and have the holy spirit tell me these athiests on this sight now he exists and yet deny him.the bible says no man is without excuse.

so you believe in the idea that if christ didnt have to die for men. that men didnt need him to be right.

Verse 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity
A genuine penitent will hide nothing of his state; he sees and bewails, not only the acts of sin which he has committed, but the disposition that led to those acts. He deplores, not only the transgression, but the carnal mind, which is enmity against God. The light that shines into his soul shows him the very source whence transgression proceeds; he sees his fallen nature, as well as his sinful life; he asks pardon for his transgressions, and he asks washing and cleansing for his inward defilement. Notwithstanding all that Grotius and others have said to the contrary, I believe David to speak here of what is commonly called original sin; the propensity to evil which every man brings into the world with him, and which is the fruitful source whence all transgression proceeds. The word cholalti, which we translate shapen, means more properly, I was brought forth from the womb; and yechemathni rather signifies made me warm, alluding to the whole process of the formation of the fetus in utero, the formative heat which is necessary to develope the parts of all embryo animals; to incubate the ova in the female, after having been impregnated by the male; and to bring the whole into such a state of maturity and perfection as to render it capable of subsisting and growing up by aliment received from without. "As my parts were developed in the womb, the sinful principle diffused itself through the whole, so that body and mind grew up in a state of corruption and moral imperfection."

hardly. that is from a methodist of two hundred years ago.

i didnt cuss then as ten year old, nor would bother with christmas,easter , thanksgiving and any pagan origin holiday and all listed save the last are as such. easter has nothing to do with christ(the eggs that is).

yet i had sin and i knew what sin., even the jehovah witness teach sin and teach right. you arguments against war and voting and politics are the EXACT SAME AS THEIRS.

yet i was in a cult. how can that be if im more right than most christians then?how could a child of that age be right with god if he knew what sin was? and the jw do teach to pray in his name and that jesus died for your sins. where they go wrong is what jesus is and how he died. but that is beside the case.

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16272/showrashi/true

rashi a jew agrees.

he believes in the idea of original sin. interesting. born by the act of sex into sin as his parents were sin.

 

[jasoncran]

romans 3

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

that is a quote from paul who is quoted david.

 

[Webb]

Jason--Romans 3:9-18 does not, nowr did Paul intend it to teach "original sin" being guilty of Adam's sin. The text is teaching that both Jew and gentile are estranged from God. Note, vs. 12 says: "They are all gone out of the way--." They were not BORN out of the way, they have "GONE" out of the way. What the original sin doctrine needs is for the verse to read: "they were all BORN out of the way."

 

[Cassian]

i believe it because by fault no man wants god. did you really want to come to christ. if you never heard of the gospel and the holy spirit didnt draw you would like us all die in your sins. i clearly remember the two times i rejected christ.

the first time for a week I KNEW it was God telling me to repent. the second time was when i was going to go more into the gay lifestyle. I knew i was wrong but i wanted it anyway. i wanted that man over god and if God didnt intefere i would been in that lifestyle today.

at the age of 10 i had the first unction to be with a boy. i knew then it was wrong and didnt have the power to stop.

calvinism teaches that.

if you believe that the father doesnt have or allow man at birth to be alienated from him then tell me why you dont believe god makes gays? i mean at age 10 with no one to tell me that it was right i had the urges,. i didnt see any gays or assoiciate with them but i did have the desire.
psalms 51:5


now i do believe as jeff does at some age when you are told what sin is then you are held accountable. but i dont buy the idea that the we are right with god at birth and sinless and have no tendency to sin.

Man is not born a sinner which is what you are actually saying. He is born in sin and iniquity of his parents. But man, every man is born innocent. We are born with a mortal nature, which is a sinful nature. It is a nature that influences, or leads us to sin. But that cannot be described as a sin nature. Nature is a state of being. If we actually had a sin nature, we would be sin. We actually could not even do sin.

If man has a sin nature then Christ by assuming that nature would Himself be sin as well. But Christ assumed our mortal nature, and thus did not sin. He definitely have the capability to sin otherwise He would not be like us in every way, and the temptations of Satan are mere theater. Chirst kept the law perfectly which is why He can demand the same from us, which He does. But He also knows we cannot be perfect, but that does not mean we should not make the effort.

You are also incorrect that man does not want God.

We were created in His Image first. Secondly we were created with a soul, a rational soul to use in knowing God. God created man with a natural link to Himself, by having a soul, and a conscience. Man must actually work or make an effort to deny God. It is man that does not seek God. God is working, has worked in every human being to lead each to a relationship with Him. This is what Paul is stating in Rom 1:18-24.

 

[Grazer]

Hi Webb,

I don't think Grazer is talking about "Original Sin" as you and I understand it. For instance, I believe in the age of accountability which denies Augustine's doctrine of "Original sin".

As it pertains to the OP, I am viewing Grazers terminology as "Adam sinned, and as a result, death entered into the world".

I can only think of 2 people in the Bible who didn't die and from what I've seen, everybody dies. It's kinda like paying taxes... Why? Because sin entered the world, thus.. original sin.

I"m pretty sure that's what Grazer is thinking... at least that's how I responded.

I'm more thinking of the whole "repercussions on humanity" because as far as I can see, nowhere in the Genesis text does it say every person throughout history will be affected by this one act.

We all die physically but I think we were always designed to;

Genesis 3:22 NIV

And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

I agree that the death referred to when it says Adam and Eve is a spiritual one in terms of seperation from God but again, it doesn't say anything about it impacting all of human history.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Cassian]

I'm more thinking of the whole "repercussions on humanity" because as far as I can see, nowhere in the Genesis text does it say every person throughout history will be affected by this one act.

We all die physically but I think we were always designed to;

Genesis 3:22 NIV

And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

I agree that the death referred to when it says Adam and Eve is a spiritual one in terms of seperation from God but again, it doesn't say anything about it impacting all of human history.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

God did not create death. Actually death is the loss of life. God created man to live forever, eternally with Him, in union with Him. But He also wanted that union to be freely entered into, by man's desire.

It would be quite absurd that God then would create man to be annihilated, return to dust from whence he came, if eternity is the end result.

As to effect upon all history. Gen 3:19 is the sentence upon Adam, but then Able is killed, so we now know that death is in this world. Paul is probably the first to show that death, the physical loss of life came through Adam in Rom 5:12. The solution being life to all men in vs 18. Rom 11:32 also shows that God allowed Satan to have dominion over man through the power of death. This is stated as being the cause of Christ to come, Heb 2:14. Another equation of I Cor 15:22 states quite emphatically that death came to all men through Adam, and then that life to all men came through Christ. Vs 22 is a summary of the explanation of what kind of death Paul is actually speaking about, vs 19-21.

If death was only spiritual then there surely would be no need to redeem the world, the universe either, since it cannot sin. But we know Christ redeemed the world, Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19 and is called the Savior of the world, John 4:42.

John even confirms this is John 6:39 where all things that were given to Christ, (all things of Col 1:20) none would be lost and all would be raised in the last day.

Just to give you the contrast, vs39 is about believers. Of all those human beings in vs 40 that were given life, physical eternal existance again) who see and believe will be raised to be with Christ. Which is supported by Acts 24:15, Rev 20:12-13.

We also know that Christ's birth, life, death and resurrection was all physical. Nothing about it was a spiritual event to overcome a spiritual death, which is a relational event or occurance.

It is Christ overcoming physical death that makes the relational possible. It is the ONLY reason man needed Christ. A mortal man, a dead man or a man living in a state of death could not surely given himself eternal life, a physcial eternal existance. Having a relationship does not grant physical life either. We know that a physical life only comes as a result of Christ's resurrection, and we will all (mankind) be raised, I Cor 15:53 and be made eternal, immortal and incorruptible.

To actually hold to the concept of Original Sin, one would need to reconstruct most of scripture to shore it up.

 

[stovebolts]

I'm more thinking of the whole "repercussions on humanity" because as far as I can see, nowhere in the Genesis text does it say every person throughout history will be affected by this one act.

We all die physically but I think we were always designed to;

Genesis 3:22 NIV

And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Hi Grazer,

You may want to read this thread to get an idea of my perspective.
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=24148&page=1&highlight=Genesis

Anyway, I see that you are taking a more sophisticated view of the Genesis account. If we step back and look at the simplicity which the narrative depicts, it is easy to see that God and Humanity were in full communion until Adam and Eve disobeyed God. At the point of disobedience, death occurred and that trait has been passed down through the generations.

The commandment was simple. Don't eat from that tree. Yet the Serpent twisted, and continues to twist the simplicity of basic right an wrong by adding a layer of complexity by questioning the very rule of right and wrong.

Likewise the consequence was very simple. Eat from the tree and you die. What happened to Adam and Eve? You guessed it... They died.

As far as thinking we were designed to die, I'd say we were created with that potential, but prior to the sin which caused death, the texts are clear that we were created for fellowship with God.

As for the tree of life, we see that among other things, it's leaves were for the healing of the nations. (Revelation 22:2). This tells us in part the function of that tree. It produces fruit and heals.

I agree that the death referred to when it says Adam and Eve is a spiritual one in terms of seperation from God but again, it doesn't say anything about it impacting all of human history.

Observation show us that Adam and Eve died.... Everyone dies. It is more than a spiritual death.

 

[stovebolts]

:o so man can choose to sin? he has a choice not to sin as a boy? he does have the power without the cross to not lie?

nevermind those child killers at young ages under 12. i guess they were innocent and sinless.

Jason,
It's about being held accountable for said sin.

We see in Exodus that nobody younger than 20 could go to war We also see this in Numbers 1.

As far as the age of accountability, it's based on Numbers 14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

 

[jasoncran]

Jason,
It's about being held accountable for said sin.

We see in Exodus that nobody younger than 20 could go to war We also see this in Numbers 1.

As far as the age of accountability, it's based on Numbers 14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

i understand that. but if you care to indulge me. i have never talked about my younger sister renee. she will die not ever understanding what god is. she cant as she doesnt have the mental capacity. but as even the jews said per that commentary as adam and eve did things that were by nature of god before the fall. my sister does things that are by nature the opposite. she does steal and hide things that arent hers. food she would take off your plate in front of you. sin none the less. evil yes,but she cant be held to that. but nonetheless the sin nature is there. why is it those with tourettes curse god? why is that some like my sister with tourettes also and add in anger act on it?

sin nature.

 

[Grazer]

Stevo

I think I get your position but I see nothing in Genesis to support it.

They didn't die, not physically and not right away. They disobeyed God and were expelled from the garden. Maybe expelling is death but they didn't physically die at that moment.

I can't get over the fact that the notion that these actions of Adam and Eve having repercussions and sin and death permutating throughout humanity as a result is mentioned no where in Genesis, the punishment seems to be on them and them alone according to Genesis. As far as I know, not even Jesus attributes sin and death to Adam. Even the story of Cain shows he had a choice, the same one Adam had; obey God or not.

I don't see this as sophisticated, I see this as very simply looking at what the text actually says.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Webb]

Hi Jason

You ask: "So man can choose to sin?" Yes. Adam had that choice in the garden, did he not? So with Adam's son Cain: ''AND THE LORD SAID UNTO CAIN, WHY ART THOU WROTH? AND WHY IS THY COUNTENANCE FALLEN? IF THU DOEST WELL, SHALT THOU NOT BE ACCEPTED? AND IF THOU DOEST NOT WELL, SIN LIETH AT THE DOOR." So Cain had the ability of choice even as we do today. These 2 passages are at the begining of the scipture, Genesis, such proofs may be multiplied throughout the Bible.

 

[jasoncran]

Hi Jason

You ask: "So man can choose to sin?" Yes. Adam had that choice in the garden, did he not? So with Adam's son Cain: ''AND THE LORD SAID UNTO CAIN, WHY ART THOU WROTH? AND WHY IS THY COUNTENANCE FALLEN? IF THU DOEST WELL, SHALT THOU NOT BE ACCEPTED? AND IF THOU DOEST NOT WELL, SIN LIETH AT THE DOOR." So Cain had the ability of choice even as we do today. These 2 passages are at the begining of the scipture, Genesis, such proofs may be multiplied throughout the Bible.

is it possible in your eyes that a baby to never sin , lie steal, kill or cheat and die and not go to hell and never repent for he or she didnt sin?

if so then you cant have your idea that we have the power to choose god and not need god to asisst us. we dont have that power to be sin free. we have all predisposition we are born with. some its lusts and others its something.

beer is repulsive for me. i cant stand it and never had one full can. satan tempts men to sin. he and god are the players in this world. one show the good and the other the evil . both are more powerful then you. God intervenes in our lives to show us the way and we must choose to want him or not. but at that point if he doesnt we will not come to him. the bible says jesus draws us. it never says we go to him without him drawing us. none seek god. none is none.

 

[rrowell]

is it possible in your eyes that a baby to never sin , lie steal, kill or cheat and die and not go to hell and never repent for he or she didnt sin?

if so then you cant have your idea that we have the power to choose god and not need god to asisst us. we dont have that power to be sin free. we have all predisposition we are born with. some its lusts and others its something.

We are born into a sinful world, not born with sin...

For you to say a child is born with sin is to say God made sin... the Bible clearly states a man is NOT born with sin, sin is something man does, not something he is born with.

 

[jasoncran]

We are born into a sinful world, not born with sin...

For you to say a child is born with sin is to say God made sin... the Bible clearly states a man is NOT born with sin, sin is something man does, not something he is born with.

so god didnt rest from creating?

where does he say that he continues creating? every heard of him allowing man with a will to do good or evil? if by your logic a child should be able never sin as he has NO desire to do evil with him. so you do have to teach your child to lie? or is the opposite they lie and when caught they either learn lie better or not to lie.

im sorry, god made and adam and eve. he foresaw all men and allows all of us to be come what he allows. its called natural process.he made the birth process and can and has manipulated process to form men (raise up).

and on the seventh day god rested from all that he made. he doesnt still make men and animals.unless you want to call speciation a new creative act of his. and that is another topic and debatable on whether speciation occurs.

 

[stovebolts]

Stevo

I think I get your position but I see nothing in Genesis to support it.

They didn't die, not physically and not right away. They disobeyed God and were expelled from the garden. Maybe expelling is death but they didn't physically die at that moment.

I can't get over the fact that the notion that these actions of Adam and Eve having repercussions and sin and death permutating throughout humanity as a result is mentioned no where in Genesis, the punishment seems to be on them and them alone according to Genesis. As far as I know, not even Jesus attributes sin and death to Adam. Even the story of Cain shows he had a choice, the same one Adam had; obey God or not.

I don't see this as sophisticated, I see this as very simply looking at what the text actually says.

Well, not sure what to say Grazer. I can't make you see it... Fact is, both Adam and Eve died. I believe scripture says Adam was like 930 years old when he died, so you see, he did in fact die, unless you can point him out to me...

But this is exactly how sophistication works. What did the Serpent say? "Did God really say"...

Here is what God actually said, "17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”"

Again I ask, where is Adam now?

That you can't see it simply tells me you've missed the essence of the narrative. Please, don't think I'm belittling you or anything of the sort because I'm not.

But according to scripture, all of creation was in fact effected and continues to groan for redemption. Sin has a way of doing that... Ever hear the saying that life isn't fair? Why do you think that is? You see, sin has a way of effecting innocent things... that's the nature of sin.

 

[rrowell]

so god didnt rest from creating?

where does he say that he continues creating? every heard of him allowing man with a will to do good or evil? if by your logic a child should be able never sin as he has NO desire to do evil with him. so you do have to teach your child to lie? or is the opposite they lie and when caught they either learn lie better or not to lie.

im sorry, god made and adam and eve. he foresaw all men and allows all of us to be come what he allows. its called natural process.he made the birth process and can and has manipulated process to form men (raise up).

and on the seventh day god rested from all that he made. he doesnt still make men and animals.unless you want to call speciation a new creative act of his. and that is another topic and debatable on whether speciation occurs.

By my logic, and from the Bible, we are born sinless, and choose to sin...

We are born into a sinful world, sin is the first thing one comes in contact with...

We choose to sin...