Original sin

[stovebolts]

i understand that. but if you care to indulge me. i have never talked about my younger sister renee. she will die not ever understanding what god is. she cant as she doesnt have the mental capacity. but as even the jews said per that commentary as adam and eve did things that were by nature of god before the fall. my sister does things that are by nature the opposite. she does steal and hide things that arent hers. food she would take off your plate in front of you. sin none the less. evil yes,but she cant be held to that. but nonetheless the sin nature is there. why is it those with tourettes curse god? why is that some like my sister with tourettes also and add in anger act on it?

sin nature.

By introducing a mental disease, you've just expanded the conversation Jason. As it applies to the age of accountability, it has to do with maturity and discernment.

Please know that this is not about being sinful. It's about being held accountable for that sin.

Question: Are we forgiven for every sin we commit or only those that we repent of? Where I"m going with this Jason is that if you look at the sacrificial system, there was an offering for sins committed that one wasn't aware of. Often, we go about our life doing the best we can thinking we are doing the right thing but in reality we are sinning and we don't even know about it. Guess what? There is an offering for that... God's got our back.

Repentance comes into play when one realized that they are sinning and they turn from that lifestyle. I believe this is one reason why Paul says that the Law condemns us.... but not in a bad way because it's used to call us to repentance once we've become aware.

In the same essence, children don't have the mental capacity to discern all this... thus the age of accountability.

 

[Grazer]

Well, not sure what to say Grazer. I can't make you see it... Fact is, both Adam and Eve died. I believe scripture says Adam was like 930 years old when he died, so you see, he did in fact die, unless you can point him out to me...

But this is exactly how sophistication works. What did the Serpent say? "Did God really say"...

Here is what God actually said, "17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.â€"

Again I ask, where is Adam now?

That you can't see it simply tells me you've missed the essence of the narrative. Please, don't think I'm belittling you or anything of the sort because I'm not.

But according to scripture, all of creation was in fact effected and continues to groan for redemption. Sin has a way of doing that... Ever hear the saying that life isn't fair? Why do you think that is? You see, sin has a way of effecting innocent things... that's the nature of sin.

I think I said in another response that Adam died, my point was the death was not immediate. I would like to amend "according to scripture" to "according to Paul" It's Paul that brings in this concept of all of humanity suffering because of what Adam and Eve did though he only mentions Adam (which is interesting to me) I don't doubt the nature or effect of sin, merely how it got into this world.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi Grazer,

This is what Paul is talking about.

Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Genesis 3:4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Look back to Genesis 3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Unless Jesus comes, I'm pretty sure that both you and I will die... But there will be a day when Death and Hell are thrown into the lake of fire... And death will be no more.

1 Corinthians 15:55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I think it should be remembered that physical death comes as a consequence of Adam's sin. Some may argue that babies die so that must mean they have inherited Adam's sin but adults/babies die as a consequence of Adam's sin.

A drunk driver may cross the center line and collide head-on with another vehicle killing the occupants of that vehicle. Those people died as a consequence of the drunken driver's sin but they certainly did not inherit the drunken driver's sin.

 

[stovebolts]

I think I said in another response that Adam died, my point was the death was not immediate. I would like to amend "according to scripture" to "according to Paul" It's Paul that brings in this concept of all of humanity suffering because of what Adam and Eve did though he only mentions Adam (which is interesting to me) I don't doubt the nature or effect of sin, merely how it got into this world.

We all die... some just sooner than others. Doesn't negate the fact that we all die. Again, it's really that simple.

Let me see if I"m understanding you. You don't see what Paul writes as being affirmed by the Genesis account right?

My question is, do you believe Paul?

If you believe Paul, then what you really want to know is how did Paul come to that conclusion.

Is this the direction you want to go? And yes, I think we can ask this question and expect a little more than some mystical "The Holy Spirit led him to mysteriously write these".

I see you struggling with this and trying to work it out... am I right? It's ok, none of us have this stuff 100% nailed and we should be able to ask and probe as long as we're seeking the truth which builds up the body of Christ, and doesn't' tear it down.

Grace and Peace.

 

[stovebolts]

I think it should be remembered that physical death comes as a consequence of Adam's sin. Some may argue that babies die so that must mean they have inherited Adam's sin but adults/babies die as a consequence of Adam's sin.

A drunk driver may cross the center line and collide head-on with another vehicle killing the occupants of that vehicle. Those people died as a consequence of the drunken driver's sin but they certainly did not inherit the drunken driver's sin.

I'm tracking and agree.
Scripture lays it out pretty clean imo

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Grazer]

You don't see what Paul writes as being affirmed by the Genesis account right?

Right

My question is, do you believe Paul?

I believe Paul has written what he has for a reason. I just can't follow his logic from what is written in Genesis, or anywhere in scripture.

If you believe Paul, then what you really want to know is how did Paul come to that conclusion.

Yeah pretty much

Whilst this line of questioning is new to me, it doesn't seem to be new period. In the lead up to the passage in Romans, Paul is talking about Jews and Gentiles being equal then he brings in Abraham. Some scholars see Adam as being representative of Israel. One NIV study Bible I've read says;

Adam is a pattern; he is the counterpart to Christ. Just as Adam is representative of created humanity, so is Christ the representative of a new spiritual humanity​

Either way, Pauls link to sin and death to Adam and Eve (again, it's interesting Paul fails to mention Eve) seems to come out of no where.

Just a couple more thoughts. Adam must have had the ability to disobey God (isn't that a definition of sin?) before he even ate of the apple. Regarding Cain, Genesis 4:7 says;

If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.

Cain has a choice but he chooses the same one as his father, to disobey God. He didn't inherit that from Adam as a result of the incident in Eden, he had it already.

 

[Butch5]

be honest, you dont covet god but sin. if that was the case then we wouldnt need god in the first place

"for none seeketh after rightoeusness no not one" hyperbole? really david a man who wrote much of the tanach and compiled parts of it? that david? he was humble.

i have seen a coworker and have the holy spirit tell me these athiests on this sight now he exists and yet deny him.the bible says no man is without excuse.

so you believe in the idea that if christ didnt have to die for men. that men didnt need him to be right.

Jason,

It seems to me that you're imposing your personal feelings on the text of Scripture. Actaully, no I don't covet sin. However, what you've posted here doesn't prove the idea of original sin.

hardly. that is from a methodist of two hundred years ago.

i didnt cuss then as ten year old, nor would bother with christmas,easter , thanksgiving and any pagan origin holiday and all listed save the last are as such. easter has nothing to do with christ(the eggs that is).

yet i had sin and i knew what sin.,

At ten years old one should know what sin is. I'm not sure what you point is here.

even the jehovah witness teach sin and teach right. you arguments against war and voting and politics are the EXACT SAME AS THEIRS.

They're also the exact same as the first Christians who were taught by the apostles.

yet i was in a cult. how can that be if im more right than most christians then?how could a child of that age be right with god if he knew what sin was? and the jw do teach to pray in his name and that jesus died for your sins. where they go wrong is what jesus is and how he died. but that is beside the case.

If one is living in sin they probably aren't right with God.

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16272/showrashi/true

rashi a jew agrees.

he believes in the idea of original sin. interesting. born by the act of sex into sin as his parents were sin.

Not sure how this bears on the subject.

 

[Butch5]

romans 3

that is a quote from paul who is quoted david.

If you look at that in context you'll see that Paul is making the argument that the Jews are not righteous. However, take notice Paul is quoting the Psalms. Let's look at the Psalm for context.

KJV Psalm 14:1 <To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.> The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.​

7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad. (Psa 14:1-7 KJV)

Notice David said, they are all gone astray. In order to have gone astray one must have been on the right path to begin with. He says they "become filthy" to become filthy one must have been clean at one time. So, you see, in context these weren't born that way, they became that way.

When the OT is quoted we need to go and look at the context of the quotes to see what the author is saying.

 

[jasoncran]

if a child is born with NO predopisition to sin then by your thinking the logical conclusion he can refuse to sin? or did god Not give adam that power to choose or not to choose sin?

notice carefully i argue propensity to sin. we all have it from birth. we dont have to work on it, it comes out.

if at an early age a child can choose to sin and why not be able to not to sin? what power does he or she have in his own power to refuse sin?

its like this. we may want to be sinless but we dont have that power. satan knowing us will tempt us and to be delivered from that desire to sin ONLY god can free us. from birth we have that flesh nature.for example if i put my grandson in side control. he being way smaller cant escape as he doesnt have the expercience nor strength to shove me off.yet if another person who is stronger gives him the training he can escape from it.or can pull me off with his power. that is how god does things. we must ask him to save us but he has to offer it to us and we accept. he will not make us serve him.unless you think that on your own you found jesus

we love god because he first loved us

i stand on the apostle john's words
one john 4:19

We love him, because he first loved us

why is that some men( beer wouldnt and isnt addictive) sure it would make me drunk but yet im not drawn to it. i hate it. yet others such a coworker can even have one beer and not become addicted to it and it owns him? theres a genetic factor to this. it doesnt mean that he cant change just that he has to learn to control it.

 

[Webb]

Hi Jason--

You ask if Adam had the power to choose or not to choose sin. The answer is certainly he had that power. God said in the day you eat this fruit you shall SURELY die. The devil said you shall NOT surely die. Adam chose to eat, and h died.

 

[Butch5]

I'm more thinking of the whole "repercussions on humanity" because as far as I can see, nowhere in the Genesis text does it say every person throughout history will be affected by this one act.

We all die physically but I think we were always designed to;

Genesis 3:22 NIV

And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

I agree that the death referred to when it says Adam and Eve is a spiritual one in terms of seperation from God but again, it doesn't say anything about it impacting all of human history.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

Hi Grazer,

Actually, the death God spoke of was physical death. The Jews and the early Christians understood this. Adam lived 930 years and Methuselah live the longest to 969 years, no one lived to a thousand years. David said in the Psalms,

Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Peter quoted this verse when he was explaining the delay in the Lord's return.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2Pe 3:8 KJV)

Adam didn't make a thousand years and as such died in the day he ate of the fruit. As I said this was the Jewish understanding of the passage. Here is a quote from the Book of Jubilees.

And in the fifteenth
jubilee in the third week Lamech took to himself a wife, and her name was Betenos the daughter of Baraki'il,
the daughter of his father's brother, and in this week she bare him a son and he called his name Noah, saying,
'This one will comfort me for my trouble and all my work, and for the ground
29 which the Lord hath cursed.' And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth
year [930 A.M.] thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he
30 was the first to be buried in the earth. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one
thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree
of knowledge: 'On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die.' For this reason he
31 did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

This was also the Early Christian understanding.
Irenaeus,

And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since “a day of the Lord is as a thousand years,†(2 Pet. 3:8) he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin.

 

[stovebolts]

I believe Paul has written what he has for a reason. I just can't follow his logic from what is written in Genesis, or anywhere in scripture.

Ha, it doesn't surprise me lol. If ya really want to throw yourself for a loop read in the book of Hebrews where it's stated that Abraham reasoned that God could bring Isaac back from the dead. I could point to other places as well, but you get the point.

So the question has to be asked. How did Paul and the writer of Hebrews come to their conclusion. Actually, it's pretty simple... Oral Tradition. Remember, Paul was an educated Jew. He would have had the whole bible memorized verbatim as well as all of the oral traditions. Before you freak out, part of "oral tradition" was simply running commentary and stories passed down from generation to generation... and yes, oral tradition is supported within the biblical texts.

So the problem comes where the only information you have is the texts.. but Paul and the other NT writers had access to much more than just the Bible and we see where it influenced their writings.

How's that for a start?

Whilst this line of questioning is new to me, it doesn't seem to be new period. In the lead up to the passage in Romans, Paul is talking about Jews and Gentiles being equal then he brings in Abraham. Some scholars see Adam as being representative of Israel. One NIV study Bible I've read says;

Adam is a pattern; he is the counterpart to Christ. Just as Adam is representative of created humanity, so is Christ the representative of a new spiritual humanity​

Either way, Pauls link to sin and death to Adam and Eve (again, it's interesting Paul fails to mention Eve) seems to come out of no where.

Just a couple more thoughts. Adam must have had the ability to disobey God (isn't that a definition of sin?) before he even ate of the apple. Regarding Cain, Genesis 4:7 says;

If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.

Cain has a choice but he chooses the same one as his father, to disobey God. He didn't inherit that from Adam as a result of the incident in Eden, he had it already.

I'm glad your seeing that God created humanity with choice. I side with the camp that believes we were created with free will. That is to say we can make bad decisions or good decisions. It's the way we were created. But that's another topic all together.

As far as Adam and Eve and sin, Paul had this to say.
1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

From here, we see that Eve was deceived, but Adam blatenly disobeyed. With this thought in mind, we can see why Paul says 1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

As far as the scholar's saying that Adam was representative of Israel, that's simply to say that they ascribe to a particular theology driven by a particular ideology. I myself don't ascribe to that theology as I prefer a simpler approach with a plain reading of the text where applicable.

Hope that helps just a little.

Grace and Peace.

 

[Grazer]

Believe it or not, I prefer a plain reading where possible but in this case, it raises so many questions, contradictions and paradoxes that the plain reading approach needs revisiting for me.

I agree with NT Wright. A plain reading doesn't come close to fully explaining Genesis. The full context of his statement can be found below;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BP1PpDyDCw

I have no issues with oral tradition, I fully accept that's how most if not all of the Old Testament was handed down.

I think this will be a topic that I will come back to but for now, I'm happy with being a little in limbo over it. To use an analogy; if I wake up tomorrow at the bottom of a cave with a broken leg, I don't need to understand how I got there to know I need help getting out. Similarly, I don't need to understand the origins of sin to know I need help. For now that's enough but I do think something much bigger is going on with Genesis.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

if a child is born with NO predopisition to sin then by your thinking the logical conclusion he can refuse to sin? or did god Not give adam that power to choose or not to choose sin?

But one is not a sinner until they first choose to sin and do sin. 1 Jn 3:4 John said sin is transgression of the law. What law has the newly concieved/newly born transgressed that would make them sinners? James wrote "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.", James 4:17. Isa 7:15-16 the newly concieved/newly born do not know the difference between right and wrong. So one cannot be born inheritng sin for one is not a sinner until he first sins.

 

[jasoncran]

But one is not a sinner until they first choose to sin and do sin. 1 Jn 3:4 John said sin is transgression of the law. What law has the newly concieved/newly born transgressed that would make them sinners? James wrote "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.", James 4:17. Isa 7:15-16 the newly concieved/newly born do not know the difference between right and wrong. So one cannot be born inheritng sin for one is not a sinner until he first sins.

so if a five year old lies and they know it by body language, then they arent a sinner?

knowledge isnt what i mean. that is by knowing it. ignorance of the torah in the tanach didnt allow you not to repent.there was an sin offering for that alone seperate. its called sin of omission and sins of commisions.

go back and read what ramban has to say on the idea of orginal sin and he said that adam and eve did good because by nature they were of god. its when they ate from the fruit that they learned what good and evil was and had the choice to do either. i say its the reverse now. we have the nature (base mode) of sin and have to be given the power otherwise to do good.

 

[jasoncran]

Hi Jason--

You ask if Adam had the power to choose or not to choose sin. The answer is certainly he had that power. God said in the day you eat this fruit you shall SURELY die. The devil said you shall NOT surely die. Adam chose to eat, and h died.

yes but if you are right then the reverse should apply and walking on this earth or in the past a boy or girl could CHOOSE never ever to sin and not need the blood.
you all have avoided that simple question.

 

[Cassian]

yes but if you are right then the reverse should apply and walking on this earth or in the past a boy or girl could CHOOSE never ever to sin and not need the blood.
you all have avoided that simple question.

Quite the opposite of what you are trying to explain.

If we had a sin nature as you seem to say, then we are sin. It is not even a matter of doing sin, we are sin. If so, then even Christ could not have saved us from that nature, since He would of necessity be sin also when born of a human being.

However, if we are born with a mortal nature. a nature that is sinful, meaning it has the capability to sin and sin easily, we can chjoose to either not sin or to sin. But having a mortal nature we have become very susceptible to its influence and causes us to sin easily and often. But man can with focus, purpose and with the help of the Holy Spirit refrain from sinning to a great extent. We will never be perfect in this life, which in theory is what you are implying in that a person could refrain from all sinning by choice.

I might also add that sin is not man's primary problem. A sacrifice is all that was needed to satisfy the sin problem of man. Christ obeyed the law perfectly, thus became the spotless Lamb for the sacrifice. But a sacrifice does not restore life to man. We would still die and return to dust. God did not want to have a relationship with man only in this life, but also for eternity. Thus it took His Incarnation, becoming man, assuming our mortal human nature, and raised it to life by His resurrection which grants physical existance, (eternal life) to the world, not just mankind.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

so if a five year old lies and they know it by body language, then they arent a sinner?

knowledge isnt what i mean. that is by knowing it. ignorance of the torah in the tanach didnt allow you not to repent.there was an sin offering for that alone seperate. its called sin of omission and sins of commisions.

go back and read what ramban has to say on the idea of orginal sin and he said that adam and eve did good because by nature they were of god. its when they ate from the fruit that they learned what good and evil was and had the choice to do either. i say its the reverse now. we have the nature (base mode) of sin and have to be given the power otherwise to do good.

No, a 5 year old would not be a sinner for he/she does not have the mental capacity to understand God's law. But proponents of orginal sin say people become sinners at conception, not at 5 years old. What lie has the newly conceived told to be a sinner?

I know of no verse that says man must be given power to do good. Gen 4:7 Cain had the power within himself to choose to well or not do well.

 

[jasoncran]

No, a 5 year old would not be a sinner for he/she does not have the mental capacity to understand God's law. But proponents of orginal sin say people become sinners at conception, not at 5 years old. What lie has the newly conceived told to be a sinner?

I know of no verse that says man must be given power to do good. Gen 4:7 Cain had the power within himself to choose to well or not do well.

yet why did christ come if we had the power to never sin?think about it,if its as you say then we should be able from BIRTH to NOW simply Not sin. why is that we are tempted and sin? you claim we have the power to not sin then why do we choose sin? what makes us knowingly lie? knowingly sin? something drives us to sin. i didnt choose at ten to like boys. i didnt lie in bed and say today i find that othe boy attractive. it just happened.i knew when it happened it was wrong but I hadnt the power to stop looking, i prayed and repented to God as i thought the jw version of him was god but still i looked. i never acted on it but the tempaton was there.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

yet why did christ come if we had the power to never sin?think about it,if its as you say then we should be able from BIRTH to NOW simply Not sin. why is that we are tempted and sin? you claim we have the power to not sin then why do we choose sin? what makes us knowingly lie? knowingly sin? something drives us to sin. i didnt choose at ten to like boys. i didnt lie in bed and say today i find that othe boy attractive. it just happened.i knew when it happened it was wrong but I hadnt the power to stop looking, i prayed and repented to God as i thought the jw version of him was god but still i looked. i never acted on it but the tempaton was there.

First, what sin has the newly conceived committed that makes him a sinner? One is not a sinner until they sin as one is not righteous until they do righteousness. In Rom 9:11 speaks of Jacob and Esau before they were born.."(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,.." The twins had done no good or evil they were not righteous and not sinners but in a safe neutral position. Calling one a sinner before they sin is like calling a wall already painted before it has been painted.


Secondly, God has foreknolwedge, so God foreknew that when He gave man free will to make choices that man would abuse that free will and make choices to sin. So that is why before the world began God had already foreknew and pre-planned to send Christ as a Saviour for mankind.


Christ was a man in ths flesh yet was sinless, He was tempted but that does not mean He was born with sin. He simply chose not to sin but chose to do the will of His Father. Man has both the potential and ability within him to sin and sometimes does sin but that in no way means he was born a sinner.