Original Sin

[mutzrein]

Copy of Post I made in thread on the inherent nature of man.

This is really only a brief statement on my part and probably not an answer as such to questions raised, but I am more than happy to respond to any that are asked, as and when I am able.

I believe Christendom is confused over the issue of ‘sin’. And the confusion is between an act which is defined as sin (by a law) and the state of sin into which man is born.

Scripture tells us that man is dead in trespasses & sin. And this is the result of Adam’s sin. We are all born this way. We are born of the flesh, ‘dead’ or in a ‘state of sin’. So our birthright is to perish.

An act of sin of course is defined by the law and although we are all born in the ‘state’ of sin, man is not born stealing and cussing from the womb. He is just born of the flesh with a propensity to fulfil whatever his flesh desires.

Now we know there is only one way that man can escape the state of sin that he is born into. And that is to be born of the Spirit, because by this he passes from death to life.

But even when man is born again he has not escaped the body of flesh that he was born with and he is therefore still subject to the flesh. The spirit and the flesh are at war and until man is able ‘walk in the spirit’ in order that he may 'die to the flesh' he will still ‘sin’.

Of course, the man who is not born of the Spirit can only live by the flesh and he will do whatever his flesh leads him to do.

 

[Imagican]

See, that's what I'm talkin' about!!!!!!!!!!!

Amen Brother!!

No JOKE folks, read it and weep, then rejoice in the Spirit that has been offered to those that are willing to bow to the power of God's love. it's NOT about the individual spirit 'groaning' for control over it's own life, it's about the individual BECOMING that which it was designed to BE. ONE with God and ONE with EACH OTHER. NO, not in individual understanding. IN LOVE.

We are ALL born the SAME way. It's not about being 'born in the flesh', the flesh IS sin. It IS death, IT IS CORRUPTION. It's about the LIFE that we are able to obtain BEYOND the FLESH.

Mutz, once again you offer strong words of wisdom. For those that understand, this has summed up the entire thread in about as few words as possible. Other than for the 'sake of argument', I find little that I could possibly offer.

Bless you Bro.

MEC

 

[hybrid]

Vic asked in another post about original sin and righfully mentioned that it should be in a separate thread. My apologies for letting the other thread slip off topic.

I Reckon Sow, here is the scriptural basis for original sin.

Romans 5:12-18

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

adam's death was not directly caused by the original sin, the original sin only made them knew good and evil.

they died because they were prevented by god to eat from the tree of life.

Gen 3:22-24
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. NIV

and this knowledge of good and evil seemed to be the culprit as to why man continued to deteriorate and necessitated a saviour.



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[mutzrein]

Gen 3:22-24
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. NIV

and this knowledge of good and evil seemed to be the culprit as to why man continued to deteriorate and necessitated a saviour.

The reason that man needs a saviour is not because of his deterioration resulting from the knowledge of good and evil. It is because he is dead. Death came to all men through Adam's sin.

So Jesus came that we might have life - that man might be freed from the power of sin, which is death.

 

[JM]

"O God, command what you wouldst, and grant what thou dost command."

- Augustine

 

[hybrid]

Gen 3:22-24
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. NIV

and this knowledge of good and evil seemed to be the culprit as to why man continued to deteriorate and necessitated a saviour.

The reason that man needs a saviour is not because of his deterioration resulting from the knowledge of good and evil. It is because he is dead. Death came to all men through Adam's sin.

So Jesus came that we might have life - that man might be freed from the power of sin, which is death.

i don't see any diffence as to what you posted and what i posted as a whole. perhaps you were just being systematic in your soteriology.

my point is that original sin is not something that can be inhereted and passed on from parent to shild like a DNA. the original sin was adam and eve's sins. and god made them responsible for it. and god will make us responsible for our sins.

but it was clear from gen 3:22-24 that man could have live for ever after sinning, thats why man was barred from eating from the tree of life. that's the primary reason why we are spiritually dead. sin barred us from the tree, sin made us dead.


Rev 2:7
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. NIV

Ezek 18:14-20
14 "But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things: (abridged)

He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

19 "Yet you ask, `Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
NIV

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[mutzrein]

i don't see any diffence as to what you posted and what i posted as a whole. perhaps you were just being systematic in your soteriology.

my point is that original sin is not something that can be inhereted and passed on from parent to shild like a DNA. the original sin was adam and eve's sins. and god made them responsible for it. and god will make us responsible for our sins.

but it was clear from gen 3:22-24 that man could have live for ever after sinning, thats why man was barred from eating from the tree of life. that's the primary reason why we are spiritually dead. sin barred us from the tree, sin made us dead.


Rev 2:7
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. NIV

Ezek 18:14-20
14 "But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things: (abridged)

He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

19 "Yet you ask, `Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
NIV

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You say that God will make us responsible for our sins. Can you expand on that for me please because I am not sure whether our understandings are the same. Thanks.

 

[hybrid]

You say that God will make us responsible for our sins. Can you expand on that for me please because I am not sure whether our understandings are the same. Thanks.

as a general rule god makes each man accountable for his actions.

Matt 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. NASU

Rom 8:13-14
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of GodNASU

Rev 20:12
and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.NASU

Rev 20:13
they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.NASU

Rev 22:12
My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. NASU

there is nothing in the bible that teaches we die because of original sin, the word is not even in the bible. we live and die because of our own actions.

.

 

[hybrid]

You say that God will make us responsible for our sins. Can you expand on that for me please because I am not sure whether our understandings are the same. Thanks.

as a general rule god makes each man accountable for his actions.

Matt 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. NASU

Rom 8:13-14
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of GodNASU

Rev 20:12
and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.NASU

Rev 20:13
they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.NASU

Rev 22:12
My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. NASU

there is nothing in the bible that teaches we die because of original sin, the word is not even in the bible. we live and die because of our own actions.

.

 

[mutzrein]

there is nothing in the bible that teaches we die because of original sin, the word is not even in the bible. we live and die because of our own actions.

.

Well what does John 3:16 mean then?

 

[Dave...]

We all sinned in Adam. Our sinful nature is a reasult of that. This same sinful nature has a fixed end, of which the knowledge of good and evil plays a part (my theory). We cannot overcome this ourselves, nor would we want to (Romans 3). We are all guilty. Everyone of us rightfully deserving hellfire.

God, by His mercy, and for His glory, saves/delivers from the power of sin those He foreknew/chose/predestined...

 

[Bick]

JM, i would be interested in discussing all the points you listed, but I suggest it be a different thread, for it would be so lengthy. Instead of "Original sin" entitle it something else, like "Adam's sin".

In this thread there are so many views it's hard to know where to start.

I would certainly agree that we are saved by faith through grace, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God.

I disagree with the notion that all were written in the book of life and through their actions, the great bulk of humanity have been blotted out.

As for "the book of life", I urge each of you as students of the Scriptures, with the use of a concordance, look up all the references and study them in their contexts to arrive at a sound interpretation. And, of course, this is true for any bible subject.

"God's book" is first mentioned in Exod. 32:32-33. There, Moses asked to be blotted out of God's book if He didn't forgive the Israelites, for God had said, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book."
Book of Life seems to be inferred. At any rate, God is speaking specifically about sinning Israelites.

In Deut. 29:18, 20, Moses warns his people that anyone who worships the gods of the nations..."the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven." Again, the implication is his name will be blotted out of the book (of life).

Daniel prophecies in Dan. 12:1, that "Your people---everyone whose names are in the book of life will be delivered." IMO, the ones delivered out of great tribulation are believing Israelites, delivered when Jesus the Messiah returns in power and great glory.

Paul, our Apostle writes, "...the rest of my fellow workers whose names are in the book of life." Phil. 4:3. I understand from this that while there may not be a literal book (scroll), God knows everyone deserving life, whether life in the heavenlies, the future of the Church/Body of Christ; life on earth in the Millennial Kingdom; or life in the New Earth (see Rev.21 and 22).

The other occurrences are in the book of Revelation which will take another post.

God bless, Bick

 

[mutzrein]

We all sinned in Adam. Our sinful nature is a reasult of that. This same sinful nature has a fixed end, of which the knowledge of good and evil plays a part (my theory). We cannot overcome this ourselves, nor would we want to (Romans 3). We are all guilty. Everyone of us rightfully deserving hellfire.

God, by His mercy, and for His glory, saves/delivers from the power of sin those He foreknew/chose/predestined...

Dave - I agree that we are all born in sin.

And each of us are subject to the corruption that prevails in the bodies of flesh that we are born with. But, being born 'dead' because of Adam's sin is not 'sin' deserving of hellfire. We are born of the flesh and if by God's grace and foreknowledge we are born of the Spirit, then we receive life.

Those who are not born of the Spirit are not punished for not being chosen. It is the Spirit that gives life. If man does not receive the gift of the Spirit then he remains 'dead' in trespasses and sin. And he will perish as scripture plainly states.

What glory could be attributed to a righteous God who would condemn those who were not given the gift of eternal life, to eternal suffering? Moreover, how could they suffer eternally if they have not been given eternal life?

 

[Dave...]

Hi Mutzrein

Those who are not born of the Spirit are not punished for not being chosen. It is the Spirit that gives life. If man does not receive the gift of the Spirit then he remains 'dead' in trespasses and sin. And he will perish as scripture plainly states.

I agree.

What glory could be attributed to a righteous God who would condemn those who were not given the gift of eternal life, to eternal suffering?

Why do you think this makes Him undeserving of glory? You do believe that they are judged rightly, by their own merit, no?

Moreover, how could they suffer eternally if they have not been given eternal life?

Eternal life means more than existance, but existance in His glory.

 

[Bick]

Bick here. It is a side subject, the "book of life", but since starting the discussion I'll finish with the four verses found in Revelation:

In two verses, there appear to be a separate set of "books" belonging to the Lamb:

Rev. 13:8 "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast---all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain."

IMO, "the Lamb" is figurative for Christ Jesus. And those chosen and named will have special faith to resist worshipping the beast. They will be mostly Israelites, as well as, perhaps, some Gentiles.

Rev. 21:27 "Nothing impure will ever enter it....but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."


The last two: Rev. 20:12 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the thrown, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judgedaccording to what they had done as recorded in the books."

Rev. 20:15 "If any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

IMO, the "book of life" found in these last two verses, are concerned with all humanity.

God bless, Bick

 

[mutzrein]

My response in red

Hi Mutzrein

Those who are not born of the Spirit are not punished for not being chosen. It is the Spirit that gives life. If man does not receive the gift of the Spirit then he remains 'dead' in trespasses and sin. And he will perish as scripture plainly states.

I agree.

[quote:d65e3]What glory could be attributed to a righteous God who would condemn those who were not given the gift of eternal life, to eternal suffering?

Why do you think this makes Him undeserving of glory? You do believe that they are judged rightly, by their own merit, no?

God is always deserving of glory - irresepective of anything we may perceive. But that is not the reason for my statement. A God of mercy, of grace, of righteousness does not judge and condemn the perishing to eternal suffering. They just perish. There is no 'merit' because they are already dead. God is not the God of the dead but the living.

It is those to whom God has given life, that are judged according to what they have done with the gift.

Moreover, how could they suffer eternally if they have not been given eternal life?

Eternal life means more than existance, but existance in His glory.

To me, God's spirit (being born of the Spirit) is the deposit guaranteeing us eternal life. And this is what it means to be made in God's image. There is an earthly man (born of the flesh) and there is a spiritual man (born of the Spirit and therefore in the image or conformed to the likeness of God). The former perishes. The latter is judged.

[/quote:d65e3]

 

[hybrid]

there is nothing in the bible that teaches we die because of original sin, the word is not even in the bible. we live and die because of our own actions.

.

Well what does John 3:16 mean then?

ha ha ha. i knew you would misunderstand me. i'm not trying to disregard the saving work of JC, i just didn't equate it to be relevant to the topic at hand.

but if you come to think of it, accepting and rejecting jesus christ is also based on our actions. but if you're a calvanist, then we might have some problems over it's ramifications.


i do agree that we have sinful natures, which causes us to sin, also i think that our sinful nature was the result of adam's sin. i just don't see original sin as something that is possesed by human race that automatically condemn people.

if that were so, jesus being the son of mary would be automatically labeled as sinful.

there were also some bible characters that were commended for walking perfectly with god. enoch i think was one.



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[mutzrein]

My response in red

there is nothing in the bible that teaches we die because of original sin, the word is not even in the bible. we live and die because of our own actions.

.

Well what does John 3:16 mean then?

ha ha ha. i knew you would misunderstand me. i'm not trying to disregard the saving work of JC, i just didn't equate it to be relevant to the topic at hand.

Forgive my lack of understanding but why don't you see this as relevant to the topic in hand?

but if you come to think of it, accepting and rejecting jesus christ is also based on our actions. but if you're a calvanist, then we might have some problems over it's ramifications.

And again, forgive me for lack of knowledge of a calvanist's theology. I'm not sure what you are getting at here as far as ramifications are concerned.

i do agree that we have sinful natures, which causes us to sin, also i think that our sinful nature was the result of adam's sin. i just don't see original sin as something that is possesed by human race that automatically condemn people.

Neither do I but I suspect for different reasons

if that were so, jesus being the son of mary would be automatically labeled as sinful.

Jesus was born of the seed of the Spirit, not of the seed of man.

there were also some bible characters that were commended for walking perfectly with god. enoch i think was one.

Yes - Enoch was a man of faith.

.

 

[hybrid]

this is how i see it mutzrein, which i think is where we differ...

i think all humans are born spiritually alive first. then when they grew up and sinned, they died spiritually. the spirit of man dies when they sin because it was denied to partake from the tree of life.

Rom 7:9
9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died NIV

jesus is the son of god from his father's side and the son of man from mary's bloodline. if the original sin of adam was passed on to mary, naturally it will be passed on to jeuss, him being 100% man. this is one of the reason i reject the doctrine of original sin.

also jesus said that the kingdom of god belongs to little children.

a knew there's a scripture that babies are not acountable to sin i just can't find the verse and i'm in a hurry. having said it, so i believe babies don't need to be save from sin, because they are sinless.

and original sin, nullify all these things.


.

 

[TanNinety]

Original sin.

Ask yourself this question. Will God make me carry the sins of my dad? Will my child carry the sins that I have committed?

Original sin sounds as original as the disciples saying to Yashuah when they saw the blind man. “why is he born blind? ..his sins or the sins of his parents?â€Â

I would rather call it original consequence. The consequence was that man was denied the tree of life and was kicked out of the garden of eden. So what God told adam happened, Adam died.

If I plan my life correctly my children get to enjoy the fruits. If I became a dope head and was irresponsible my children will suffer poor education, lack of a strong foundation and everything that follows with it. Now would you tie my children suffering to them magically being “original dope heads†even though they haven’t taken after my addictions or would you know that they are bearing the consequences of me being a dope head?

I am with hybrid on this one when he says that if Jesus had to be completely human, being born of mary then mary has to be free of original sin because that is where He is getting His humanity from and for mary not to be under original sin BOTH her earthly parents shouldn’t be under original sin which means their earthly parents were not under original sin, thus will trace back to the arc of noah and adam and eve and cancel itself out.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

.

What does it mean many were MADE sinners? To me it means that we are bearing the consequence of that sin not that I somehow magically committed that original sin. How come we are made righteous by one mans righteousness??? The consequence of being righteous, i.e., the GRACE and through it life is being extended to us all. ..Not that we are magically being righteous by “original righteousnessâ€Â.

I don’t believe in the original sin, just the original consequence. The consequence of that sin is bad enough for me I don’t need the guilt of that sin upon me as well.