Orthodox reasoning/Praying to Saints

[Orthodox Christian]

Again, Orthodox, your post shows that you give credit to men for everything good in them instead of to God alone.

Orthodox Christian said

At the beginning of Lent, each of us Orthodox bows before each other, paying honor to Christ within each other

This is the antithesis of Christianity & shows a complete lack of faith in the power of God.

Orthodox Christian said:

Finally, I do not worship anyone other than God. I do, however, esteem many, some who are still here with us, some who who have entered eternity.

He alone is responsible for the good in people & in the world. It's people like you who will be in danger of being deceived by the anti-Christ.But those who only worship God can never be deceived by the anti-Christ because we don't bow down to people, only to God.

The bible says:

For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform miraculous signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones.

and

be careful when you think you stand, lest you fall

And since you don't understand the sovereignty and power of God, and that he alone is almighty

Orthodox Christian said:

Is my grandfather, may his memory be eternal, functioning in me when I look after the neighborhood kids, as he did? Or is it simply Christ functioning, having been made manifest in Paul and in my grandfather? I suggest the latter.

you have nothing further to say that could possibly interest me.

No problem. Farewell, Heidi.

 

[Vic C.]

...you have nothing further to say that could possibly interest me.

Heidi, lets try and keep statements like this from entering into our debates. It just breeds contempt and the Good Lord knows, we have enough of that here already.

Thanks,
Vic

 

[Steve]

Oy gevalt.

Anyway...I was doing some meditation last evening, and I went back a few years into my childhood and adolecent days, and early 20's. I had to beg the Lord's forgiveness and repent for the sin of IDOLATRY. There was a time in my life that all of my prayers were directed to Mary. I LIVED for the Novena to Our Mother of Perpetual Help, and when I couldn't be at church in person for it, it was broadcast on the radio, and nobody better disturb me during that 30 minutes. I said the rosary daily, with its 53 Hail Marys vs 5 Our Fathers. Sometimes I even skipped school to go to the Miraculous Medal novenas on Monday or Tuesday.

I haven't seen it until very lately. I was a Mary WORSHIPPER. Jesus was somebody on the side. And no-one ever corrected me. I was also a statue-kisser. Geez, EVERYBODY in church was a statue-kisser, and the old ladies who couldn't reach the life sized crucifix(on wheels, yet!) would blow kisses at it.

How deeply embarrassed and repentant I was last nite- : -cuz I just now REALISED what I had been doing. It's deep- I WAS NEGLECTING THE FATHER, THE LORD OF HEAVEN AND EARTH, MY CREATOR AND REDEEMER, and praying to a fellow mortal who could do nothing for me, and I was a MARIOLATER. And there were(and are) lots more of us!!!!!

How ashamed I was and am before God. :

 

[cj]

How ashamed I was and am before God. :

Hey...... the blood covers it all. And this is the victory that we have.

The wonderful reality is that there is no need to wait, no delay necessary, between the seeing of our true condition, repenting of it, and being covered with His righteousness instantly.

Your sin was covered before you even existed. Express that, rejoice in it, as its what most pleases the Lord.

In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Oy gevalt.

Anyway...I was doing some meditation last evening, and I went back a few years into my childhood and adolecent days, and early 20's. I had to beg the Lord's forgiveness and repent for the sin of IDOLATRY. There was a time in my life that all of my prayers were directed to Mary. I LIVED for the Novena to Our Mother of Perpetual Help, and when I couldn't be at church in person for it, it was broadcast on the radio, and nobody better disturb me during that 30 minutes. I said the rosary daily, with its 53 Hail Marys vs 5 Our Fathers. Sometimes I even skipped school to go to the Miraculous Medal novenas on Monday or Tuesday.

I haven't seen it until very lately. I was a Mary WORSHIPPER. Jesus was somebody on the side. And no-one ever corrected me. I was also a statue-kisser. Geez, EVERYBODY in church was a statue-kisser, and the old ladies who couldn't reach the life sized crucifix(on wheels, yet!) would blow kisses at it.

How deeply embarrassed and repentant I was last nite- : -cuz I just now REALISED what I had been doing. It's deep- I WAS NEGLECTING THE FATHER, THE LORD OF HEAVEN AND EARTH, MY CREATOR AND REDEEMER, and praying to a fellow mortal who could do nothing for me, and I was a MARIOLATER. And there were(and are) lots more of us!!!!!

How ashamed I was and am before God. :

What does any of this have to do with "Orthodox reasoning/Praying to the saints"- or any of the sidebar discussions?

I might suggest you bring this heartfelt confession over to the prayer request and praises forum.

Best wishes,
James

 

[Vic C.]

How ashamed I was and am before God.

: One just never knows whether you are being sincere or facetious. :

 

[Ajax 777]

Don't be redundant. Don't repeat yourself. Like you just did. :-D

 

[Vic C.]

:o

 

[Ajax 777]

Awww, y'erased it.....

 

[Orthodox Christian]

How ashamed I was and am before God.

: One just never knows whether you are being sincere or facetious. :

Oh, I'm certain that Steve must be sincere, for it's pretty clear that if he was being facetious, in the sense of using his story to make a point in an off-handed manner- well, that woul clearly b taking the Lord's name in vain, using God as a prop. That would be a very grave sin indeed, especially in the light of the fact that he is now illumined, whereas before he was ignorant.

Wasn't it Peter who said that God has forgiven the times of ignorance, wanting all men to come to repentance? So the former infractions are covered. Let us pray that there are newer ones done in impious condescension. I just refuse to believe it.

 

[Steve]

How ashamed I was and am before God.

: One just never knows whether you are being sincere or facetious. :

I was totally sincere.

I can be that way, you know.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Vic wrote:
Quote:
How ashamed I was and am before God.


One just never knows whether you are being sincere or facetious.








I was totally sincere.

I can be that way, you know.

See, I had every confidence that Steve wouldn't use the awesome mystery of repentance as prop by which to take a shot at religious rivals.

And again, as lauded as it is to realize that one has been an idolater, and to be willing to move away from same, the discussion of this is not relevant to this particular thread or forum.

Perhaps it would be appropriate to begin a thread about idolatry in general- for this sin is not specific to Catholics, Orthodox, or any group on earth, including the most pietistic, scripture-driven Evangelicals. Idolatry is the essence of what is often mistranslated "antiChrist." The word andechristo, which is what is used in the Greek text, means 'in the place of Christ'- ie, idols. We can make an idol of our intelligence, beauty, the praise of men, our strength, our 'correct' reading of scripture, the bible, Pastor so-and-so, Mary, the Saints, Calvin, Luther, ...our spouses, children, homes, or property....we can make an idol of our sense of comfort, of our superiority, of our righteousness, our faith, our intellectual image of God- ANYTHING can be an idol.

Be careful when you think you stand, lest you fall.

 

[Ajax 777]

Idolatry is the essence of what is often mistranslated "antiChrist." The word andechristo, which is what is used in the Greek text, means 'in the place of Christ'- ie, idols. We can make an idol of our intelligence, beauty, the praise of men, our strength, our 'correct' reading of scripture, the bible, Pastor so-and-so, Mary, the Saints, Calvin, Luther, ...our spouses, children, homes, or property....we can make an idol of our sense of comfort, of our superiority, of our righteousness, our faith, our intellectual image of God- ANYTHING can be an idol.

Be careful when you think you stand, lest you fall.

Man, this is beautifully put. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Vic C.]

I was totally sincere.

I can be that way, you know.

Of course I do. I just thought I'd raise an eyebrow... or two. 8-)

See, I had every confidence that Steve wouldn't use the awesome mystery of repentance as prop by which to take a shot at religious rivals.

And I knew he wasn't. In trying to shorten my "Steve quote" down to a sentence, I chose the last line in his post, not realizing ti could be misconstrued. :

Steve knows I have a "Brotherly love" for him. :-D We go way back..... on these forums at least. : Despite the fact that I sometimes had to turn the 'hose' on him, I used to enjoy reading his posts in the "Christianity and Other Religions" forum when I was Mod there. :

 

[Steve]

Thanks, Vic. :-D

Ya GOTTA have humour in things, for heavens sakes :-D

 

[godspeed]

BradtheImpaler -I have proven Orthodox people do "pray to saints" per their own church's use of said phrase, and by the dictionary definition of "pray". What else do you need? Why not exhibit a little Christian humility and admit you're wrong?

Bradthe Impaler you are correct. My mother is Greek Orthodox. I remember she prayed once to a female saint (do not remember her name) for help finding a ring she lost. She prays to a dead saint whose relics are in California and receives holy water from there by mail. He is supposed to have power in his bones even though he is dead.

In the Orthodox Church I grew up in, they would kneel before the icons and kiss the icons as well (as though they were alive). They kneel before the priest as well and kiss his hand.

My grandmother would say "Panagia" whenever she was frightened or was calling out for help. That is a title for Mary. Most Greeks do say that instead of calling out to Jesus. Most of my family does that. They also say Panagia in Greece as I have visited there twice whenever anxious or frightened, etc. My grandmother would pray to Mary. I am not sure about my mother as we have talked to her extensively about Jesus being our intercessor and He sits at the right hand of the Father praying for us day and night. He is the only one who has the authority to petition the Father. Jesus said I and the Father are one. He is the Lamb of God. His blood cleanses us from sin.

I am no longer Greek Orthodox. I left it when I was about 30 years old. The Lord led me out of it.

They have prayers for the dead; especially 40 days after the person has died and then thereafter once a year or so. Do not remember exactly how often, but I think it is once a year on the anniversary of the deceased's death. My mother still does that for my father and he has been dead since 1972.

I do not remember too much more than that since I have been away from the OC for many years. I am a born again, Bible believing Christian. I work in a street ministry (for the homeless). Have been baptized as an adult just as Jesus was to fulfill all righteousness after repenting of my many sins as it says in Acts.


Blessings to you in the name of our Lord Jesus,

Helen

 

[godspeed]

Anthropos

Anthropos (means man in Greek)

Orthodox Christian -

But you won't agree, because your new found friends anthropomorphisize God, heaven, and eternity. This means that they understand each from human reference, and bow at the throne of Rationalism.[quote:7ffc8]

Is Jesus God? Does he not have a body now? When he rose from the dead, he had a body. It was recognizable as a being a man. His disciples recognized Him when he came to them in the Upper Room. They touched Him.

"God was manifest in the flesh." I Timothy 3:16.

Check out Revelation 1:13-17

:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man clothed with a garment down to the foot and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were as a flame of fire.
:15 And his feet like unto fine brass as if they burned in a furnace and his voice as the sound of many waters.
:16 And he had in his RIGHT HAND seven stars and out of his MOUTH went a sharp two-edged swored: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in shis strength.
:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his RIGHT HAND upon me saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

This is Christ in his glorified body, but he does has the features of a man. He has a mouth, hands, feet and a body. The Bible tells us exactly what it is like in eternity.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened and behold a white horse and he that upon him was called Faithful and True and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

19:12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written that no man knew, but he himself.

19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood and his name is called the Word of God (Jesus).

He still has a body and sits upon a horse. He has a head. He has clothes that are dipped in blood.

Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face and his name will be written on their foreheads.

Job 19:25 And I know that my Redeemer liveth and that HE SHALL STAND AT THE LATTER DAY UPON THE EARTH. (he has legs)

Elijah saw God's backside.


Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior,

Helen

[/quote:7ffc8]

 

[godspeed]

Anthropos

Anthropos (means man in Greek)

Orthodox Christian -

But you won't agree, because your new found friends anthropomorphisize God, heaven, and eternity. This means that they understand each from human reference, and bow at the throne of Rationalism.

Is Jesus God? Does he not have a body now? When he rose from the dead, he had a body. It was recognizable as a being a man. His disciples recognized Him when he came to them in the Upper Room. They touched Him.

"God was manifest in the flesh." I Timothy 3:16.

Check out Revelation 1:13-17

:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man clothed with a garment down to the foot and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were as a flame of fire.
:15 And his feet like unto fine brass as if they burned in a furnace and his voice as the sound of many waters.
:16 And he had in his RIGHT HAND seven stars and out of his MOUTH went a sharp two-edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his RIGHT HAND upon me saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

This is Christ in his glorified body, but he does has the features of a man. He has a mouth, hands, feet and a body. The Bible tells us exactly what it is like in eternity.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened and behold a white horse and he that upon him was called Faithful and True and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

19:12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written that no man knew, but he himself.

19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood and his name is called the Word of God (Jesus).

He still has a body and sits upon a horse. He has a head. He has clothes that are dipped in blood.

Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face and his name will be written on their foreheads.

Job 19:25 And I know that my Redeemer liveth and that HE SHALL STAND AT THE LATTER DAY UPON THE EARTH. (he has legs)

Elijah saw God's backside.


Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior,

Helen

 

[Orthodox Christian]

BradtheImpaler -I have proven Orthodox people do "pray to saints" per their own church's use of said phrase, and by the dictionary definition of "pray". What else do you need? Why not exhibit a little Christian humility and admit you're wrong?

Bradthe Impaler you are correct. My mother is Greek Orthodox. I remember she prayed once to a female saint (do not remember her name) for help finding a ring she lost. She prays to a dead saint whose relics are in California and receives holy water from there by mail. He is supposed to have power in his bones even though he is dead.

Like Elisha?
You know, no matter which tradition one adheres to, you find people who are off-the-mark. I would like to see the church that has no one in their midst who has some strange, misinformed, or superstitious notions. These people are either mentally ill and/or poorly educated. Unfortunately, it seems as if your mother was one of those who grew up in the Orthodox Church but clung to rural Greek superstitions.

In the Orthodox Church I grew up in, they would kneel before the icons and kiss the icons as well (as though they were alive). They kneel before the priest as well and kiss his hand.

We also kneel before each other and kiss each other, but we reserve prostrations for God alone.

My grandmother would say "Panagia" whenever she was frightened or was calling out for help. That is a title for Mary. Most Greeks do say that instead of calling out to Jesus.

In any given liturgy, the number of petitions to the Trinity outnumber the number of petitions to the Saints by a factor of about 30 to 1. This you would know, had you come to liturgy more often than Christmas and Easter. Even the petitions to the Saints are for them to pray to God for us.

Most of my family does that. They also say Panagia in Greece as I have visited there twice whenever anxious or frightened, etc. My grandmother would pray to Mary. I am not sure about my mother as we have talked to her extensively about Jesus being our intercessor and He sits at the right hand of the Father praying for us day and night. He is the only one who has the authority to petition the Father. Jesus said I and the Father are one. He is the Lamb of God. His blood cleanses us from sin.

You do well to uplift the Name of the most Holy Trinity- this is indeed what the Orthodox Church teaches and extols.

I am no longer Greek Orthodox. I left it when I was about 30 years old. The Lord led me out of it.

Be well, wherever you are-

They have prayers for the dead; especially 40 days after the person has died and then thereafter once a year or so. Do not remember exactly how often, but I think it is once a year on the anniversary of the deceased's death. My mother still does that for my father and he has been dead since 1972.

You find the practice of praying for the departed problematic? Why, may I ask?

I do not remember too much more than that since I have been away from the OC for many years. I am a born again, Bible believing Christian. I work in a street ministry (for the homeless). Have been baptized as an adult just as Jesus was to fulfill all righteousness after repenting of my many sins as it says in Acts.

I grew up in the Evangelical world, and I thank God for my time in that part of the Church, for I learned and gained much. Coming home to the Orthodox Church has simply made my worship life fuller and more complete.

Blessings to you in the name of our Lord Jesus,

Helen

Blessings to you, Eleni
James

 

[Steve]

BradtheImpaler -I have proven Orthodox people do "pray to saints" per their own church's use of said phrase, and by the dictionary definition of "pray". What else do you need? Why not exhibit a little Christian humility and admit you're wrong?

Bradthe Impaler you are correct. My mother is Greek Orthodox. I remember she prayed once to a female saint (do not remember her name) for help finding a ring she lost. She prays to a dead saint whose relics are in California and receives holy water from there by mail. He is supposed to have power in his bones even though he is dead.

In the Orthodox Church I grew up in, they would kneel before the icons and kiss the icons as well (as though they were alive). They kneel before the priest as well and kiss his hand.

My grandmother would say "Panagia" whenever she was frightened or was calling out for help. That is a title for Mary. Most Greeks do say that instead of calling out to Jesus. Most of my family does that. They also say Panagia in Greece as I have visited there twice whenever anxious or frightened, etc. My grandmother would pray to Mary. I am not sure about my mother as we have talked to her extensively about Jesus being our intercessor and He sits at the right hand of the Father praying for us day and night. He is the only one who has the authority to petition the Father. Jesus said I and the Father are one. He is the Lamb of God. His blood cleanses us from sin.

I am no longer Greek Orthodox. I left it when I was about 30 years old. The Lord led me out of it.

They have prayers for the dead; especially 40 days after the person has died and then thereafter once a year or so. Do not remember exactly how often, but I think it is once a year on the anniversary of the deceased's death. My mother still does that for my father and he has been dead since 1972.

I do not remember too much more than that since I have been away from the OC for many years. I am a born again, Bible believing Christian. I work in a street ministry (for the homeless). Have been baptized as an adult just as Jesus was to fulfill all righteousness after repenting of my many sins as it says in Acts.


Blessings to you in the name of our Lord Jesus,

Helen

HELEN ACCURATELY DESCRIBES ORTHODOXY AS I KNEW IT AND EXPERIENCED IT.