OSAS....Not !

[Merry Menagerie]

As far as the last quote that you posted, Heidi stating that in her volunteer work and witness to people was not of her own nature, loving heart, and superior intelligence, but instead from the indwelling Spirit of God who has a divine nature, agape loving heart, and supreme intelligence.

Yes anything good that comes out of a christian is from the nature that God put there, it does not come from their own nature.

 

[pearlz]

Heidi is a real sweetheart, and her comments that you have stated are not contradictory.

Maybe Heidi is a sweetheart to you, but from my side of the table i see a women that has alot of hate in her heart.

A believer or one who purports to be a believer should examine themselves to validate whether they are saved or not. When one brings the question of whether one is saved or not due to recognizing a place of no fruits, a believer should question the intent of such a one. That is not bringing into doubt the salvation of one, but is instead warning one of their possible need for salvation.

I've seen many of her posts to many different people where she is just plain mean to them. How can you say you are a follower of Jesus Christ who is supposed to = love, and then be just nasty to people who don't believe the same thing you do? How is that doing his work?

On the other hand, one who causes others to doubt their salvation and/or faith in God could very well be led by satanic influence, if not just walking in the flesh, or conformation to the world.

One may think it a very thin line between the two, but then satan's counterfeits would not be counterfeit if it didn't look like the real thing.

I am a person who does believe in a higher power, but when i look at some religions i see people like her i think NO WAY!. She is pushing people away from christ with her negitivity towards them, and again with her own superior attitude on how she knows better. In many threads I've seen her tell people they aren't christian. I've seen her bring the devil down on their heads and tell them they are doing his work, then say how good her own faith is. Im sorry, but that isn't how its supposed to work. isn't their something in christianity about God being the only one allowed to judge others? She does it day in and day out, and if you truly believe this rule, then you are sinning every time you do it.

People like Heidi are a real reason i wont even look into the christian faith as a option. On the other hand, i do know alot of very good people who are christians and i love them to death, but they are also the ones who dont flaunt it. They live what they believe and are respectful to other peoples beliefs.

As far as the last quote that you posted, Heidi stating that in her volunteer work and witness to people was not of her own nature, loving heart, and superior intelligence, but instead from the indwelling Spirit of God who has a divine nature, agape loving heart, and supreme intelligence.

I just found it very ironic that she would say such a thing. I volunteer as a rape crises counselor and when i get called in the middle of the night and have to get my rear to the hospital to help a 12 year old girl who has been raped by 5 guys, i do it BECAUSE of my nature. Because i want to help them and hold there hand and help them get through the worst moment of thier life. And i wouldn't want anyone doing that job that wasn't doing it from the heart. I don't think you should do such work if its not from your heart.

From the many posts I've read of hers, both here and on another forum she despises anyone with any other belief than her own. And even if its another christian, if they don't believe exactly what she does, she just accuses them of not being a "Real" christian or worse, i just don't see anything christian in that at all.

 

[pearlz]

As far as the last quote that you posted, Heidi stating that in her volunteer work and witness to people was not of her own nature, loving heart, and superior intelligence, but instead from the indwelling Spirit of God who has a divine nature, agape loving heart, and supreme intelligence.

Yes anything good that comes out of a christian is from the nature that God put there, it does not come from their own nature.

Maybe im dense, but are you serious? I havent read enough posts of yours to know if you are or not. If you are, i have a pretty big problem with that. Shouldnt people do good things for others because it IS in their nature?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts BY THE HOLY GHOST.

The fruits of the SPIRIT is love, Joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperence,

Romans 7 v 18 For I know that in me (that is in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

It's no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me.

Therfore the works you see in me are not my works but Christ's works in me...therefore I can give him the credit and not boast. All glory of my works go to Christ!

The good that I do, I do only because of the HOly Spirit in me...not from my fleshly nature.

 

[JM]

What's wrong with everyone?? Stop judging each other and just get on with it already.

Stop judging the fact that I'm judging people! :-D

 

[Solo]

Heidi is a real sweetheart, and her comments that you have stated are not contradictory.

Maybe Heidi is a sweetheart to you, but from my side of the table i see a women that has alot of hate in her heart.

I did not read any "hate" in the posts that you shared with us from Heidi. If these posts suggest "hate", then your post is similar.

A believer or one who purports to be a believer should examine themselves to validate whether they are saved or not. When one brings the question of whether one is saved or not due to recognizing a place of no fruits, a believer should question the intent of such a one. That is not bringing into doubt the salvation of one, but is instead warning one of their possible need for salvation.

I've seen many of her posts to many different people where she is just plain mean to them. How can you say you are a follower of Jesus Christ who is supposed to = love, and then be just nasty to people who don't believe the same thing you do? How is that doing his work?

Some individuals are able to take the information that is being expressed, investigate that information, and make a decision based on their understanding of truth. If they are in disagreement with another, then they should pray for them, and treat them in love greater than they treat others.

On the other hand, one who causes others to doubt their salvation and/or faith in God could very well be led by satanic influence, if not just walking in the flesh, or conformation to the world.

One may think it a very thin line between the two, but then satan's counterfeits would not be counterfeit if it didn't look like the real thing.

I am a person who does believe in a higher power, but when i look at some religions i see people like her i think NO WAY!. She is pushing people away from christ with her negitivity towards them, and again with her own superior attitude on how she knows better. In many threads I've seen her tell people they aren't christian. I've seen her bring the devil down on their heads and tell them they are doing his work, then say how good her own faith is. Im sorry, but that isn't how its supposed to work. isn't their something in christianity about God being the only one allowed to judge others? She does it day in and day out, and if you truly believe this rule, then you are sinning every time you do it.

I have always believed in God from an early age, but I did not know God until I was twenty-eight years old. For the most part of my life, I did not want to listen to Christians (even though I assumed I was since I lived in America) because I knew that I would have to give up living life the way that I enjoyed. After becoming a Christian I came to understand that I had wrong understandings. I now know that there is only one good, and He is God. No one on this earth is good because of the nature that we are born with missing the mark of God. God is righteous and the only way that we can become righteous is when Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us because of our faith in him. Now that I am saved, I am still no good, but when I walk in the Spirit that indwells me since being born from above, I can do good through the Spirit of Christ that dwells in me. Keep in mind that the devil is actually the one that opposes the children of God, and he uses his children and his angels to attack them. The Bible teaches us that we do not battle flesh and blood but principalities, "against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Ephesians 6:12).
Sometimes Christians discern this battle being waged against people and they strike out with truth to combat the evil so that the people who are ignorant of what is going on can examine themselves and become children of God. Those that are not believers in Jesus will sometimes look at this discernment as judgment, but judgment is the actual sentencing of those that have a penalty to pay on the last day. Discernment is what all individuals out to be practicing as each experience comes ones way.

People like Heidi are a real reason i wont even look into the christian faith as a option. On the other hand, i do know alot of very good people who are christians and i love them to death, but they are also the ones who dont flaunt it. They live what they believe and are respectful to other peoples beliefs.

Is Heidi keeping you from investigating Jesus Christ as being God the creator and savior of the world, or are you fearful that you would have to change your lifestyle to an unknown way, or a way that you see as suspect. Those "alot of very good people who are Christians" that you know and love to death, perhaps are the ones that you should question about their faith. I became a believer after the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the fact that there are children of God and children of the devil, and there is only one way to become a child of God. That way is Jesus Christ and the path is to be born from above by the Spirit of God.
All Christians are at various stages of maturity in their walk with God, and some are more gentle than others, some are more Spirit led than others, some are more transformed by the Word of God than others, some are able to express themselves in words on forums better than others, but the key is that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the most vile person alive on this earth. The question is whether that most vile person will accept God's path to salvation for him or not.

As far as the last quote that you posted, Heidi stating that in her volunteer work and witness to people was not of her own nature, loving heart, and superior intelligence, but instead from the indwelling Spirit of God who has a divine nature, agape loving heart, and supreme intelligence.

I just found it very ironic that she would say such a thing. I volunteer as a rape crises counselor and when i get called in the middle of the night and have to get my rear to the hospital to help a 12 year old girl who has been raped by 5 guys, i do it BECAUSE of my nature. Because i want to help them and hold there hand and help them get through the worst moment of thier life. And i wouldn't want anyone doing that job that wasn't doing it from the heart. I don't think you should do such work if its not from your heart.

Perhaps you have misunderstood the intent of her post. The way that I read it was that she was not claiming to have the ability of doing the volunteer work or witnessing from her own strength, but instead relies on the good works that God provides through his Spirit that dwells within her. I would like to see all mankind submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ because there would be more loving volunteers, and noone would be bound for an eternity apart from God the Father.

From the many posts I've read of hers, both here and on another forum she despises anyone with any other belief than her own. And even if its another christian, if they don't believe exactly what she does, she just accuses them of not being a "Real" christian or worse, i just don't see anything christian in that at all.

Perhaps Heidi is fighting the satanic influences that she sees in the world through the word of God. The word of God does not rest well with the world. Those that are not saved can be readily offended thinking that the attack is personal and against them, when in fact it is not personal with any individual, but the antiChristian influence that debates against the truth of God's word. I like the way that Jesus combatted satan in the wilderness. Satan used the word of God in tempting Jesus, but was using the word of God out of context and not rightly dividing the word of God. Jesus combatted satan by giving him the rightly divided word of God. After three attempts to tempt Jesus, satan fled.

 

[pearlz]

I had every intention of speaking to every part of your post solo until i got to this.

Those "alot of very good people who are Christians" that you know and love to death, perhaps are the ones that you should question about their faith.

This is when i realized trying to talk to you would be like talking to a wall. You have no interest in other peoples views, thoughts or ideas unless they are the same as your own. The simple fact that you could take a statement such as the one i made without knowing who im talking about or anything other than that i know them and that they were christian and say i should question THEIR faith gives me a very good idea about the kind of person YOU are.

Maybe you should think about that.

 

[Solo]

I had every intention of speaking to every part of your post solo until i got to this.

Those "alot of very good people who are Christians" that you know and love to death, perhaps are the ones that you should question about their faith.

This is when i realized trying to talk to you would be like talking to a wall. You have no interest in other peoples views, thoughts or ideas unless they are the same as your own. The simple fact that you could take a statement such as the one i made without knowing who im talking about or anything other than that i know them and that they were christian and say i should question THEIR faith gives me a very good idea about the kind of person YOU are.

Maybe you should think about that.

I may have written this in a way that was easy to be misunderstood and I apologize for that. When I suggested that you question those "good people who are Christians" that you know and love to death, I meant that you should ask them how their faith strengthens them to be a good witness for Jesus Christ. I did not mean that their faith should be questioned, but that their good witness was evidence of a good faith, and you should question them as to the power of God in their lives so that they can explain to you their testimony. Again, I am sorry that I gave room for you to misunderstand my poorly written post.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Jay T,

Dear friend,

This verse shows the Church what Jesus believes about the "once saved alway save" theology IMHO:

Jesus says in Matthew 10:22, Mark 13:13, And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Jesus says in Matthew 24:13, But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Jesus says in Mark 16:16, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Now it appears to the Orthodox Christian that Jesus, Paul and the others believed salvation was a "race to be run" or a "fight to be fought". Can we agree?

So what happens in a race? Well first one must know the race is being conducted. Once one hears of the race then one must enter the race. How does Jesus and the Apostles claim one enters the race? It is right there in Mark 16:16, Baptism.

So one hears of the race (the gospel preached), finds where the race is being conducted "the Church", then by faith seeks to enter the race, how? By "Baptism" or signing up in "the Church. How can one tell if one is in the race? Well, normally he has a number or "a name written on a stone" in the christian scheme of the race. When I entered "the race" my name was changed to "Kyril", russian for Saint Cyril of Jerusalem defender against the Arian heresy. So one has a name change like simon to peter and other OT name changes example Genesis 32:28.

Is one saved upon enterance into the race? No. He enters to begin running the race. At anytime he may break his leg or just drop out. It is ok to rest in the race, crawl in the race, sit down in the race, sprint in the race, take a nap in the race, even to quit the race then get back into the race but no one can "win the race" until he "finishes the race". Is that not what salvation is "finishing the race" "fighting the good fight"? What race is ever won at the start line? How many are lost there?

So the Christian race is hearing the word (being saved), acting on the word by faith (being saved), being "born again" entering the race by baptism(being saved in Christ), running the race with repentance (being saved in Christ), then and only then if one "endures to the end" the "same shall be saved". If one is "in Christ" at the end of "the Race" then one is "saved". Jesus Christ will never leave us but we sure can leave "the Race" just as no man can escape the love of God. We will always remain in the love of God but many will not by thier own will enter the race or they quit, they hate the love of God standing in the middle of it for God's love is to "real".

This much is certain "Winners never quit and quitters never win".

Once one endures to the end of the race he is "saved" always and forever and no man can pluck Him from His hand.

I think we all can agree the "end of the race" on the earth is death of the body, right?

With all due respect and love in Christ,

Orthodoxy

 

[pearlz]

I had every intention of speaking to every part of your post solo until i got to this.

Those "alot of very good people who are Christians" that you know and love to death, perhaps are the ones that you should question about their faith.

This is when i realized trying to talk to you would be like talking to a wall. You have no interest in other peoples views, thoughts or ideas unless they are the same as your own. The simple fact that you could take a statement such as the one i made without knowing who im talking about or anything other than that i know them and that they were christian and say i should question THEIR faith gives me a very good idea about the kind of person YOU are.

Maybe you should think about that.

I may have written this in a way that was easy to be misunderstood and I apologize for that. When I suggested that you question those "good people who are Christians" that you know and love to death, I meant that you should ask them how their faith strengthens them to be a good witness for Jesus Christ. I did not mean that their faith should be questioned, but that their good witness was evidence of a good faith, and you should question them as to the power of God in their lives so that they can explain to you their testimony. Again, I am sorry that I gave room for you to misunderstand my poorly written post.

Im very relieved that it was a misunderstanding. I accept your apology and may i offer one of my own. I probley judged your words to harshly. Let me explain why. Our whole conversation was about Heidi saying putting doubt into other christians faith is the work of Satan. Well i see her judging other peoples faith all of the time. She has a account on another forum and she has admitted that she is both of these people, Heidi here and Carico on Christianforums.com. Both places she has made it absolutely clear that there is NO interupertation of the bible. It says what it means, and it can only be takin one way, and there is NO leeway. So if she says the bible says

trying to get others to doubt their salvation is from the devil

then thats what it means to her, no if ands or buts. But i see her continually questioning other peoples faith. You cant have it both ways. It would take me all day to come up with all of the quotes to show you what i mean. (and i will work on it , but i will have to post them at a later date)
As far as just being mean to people with different belief's i will gather those quotes at the same time, no they weren't in those quotes i used, but she has most definitely said some very disturbing things to others.

Again, im TRULY relieved that what i took to mean one thing, was not meant in the way i read it. I always have admiration for people who can apologize and admit wrong, and i admire you for doing so. And i also admit i jumped to fast to a wrong conclusion and i am sorry for that.

With respect,
pearlz

 

[Jay T]

trying to get others to doubt their salvation is from the devil

True enough.

But then again, God may be speaking to those who have but only partialy accepted salvation.
There is FAR MORE....than is generally accepted, at face value !

Many, if not most accept, the idea of Christ's death on the cross, and burial and resurrection...and think that's all there is to it.
BIG MISTAKE !!!

Because if that was all there was to it......then, Christ's life of 33 years on earth was basicly a waste of time.
When He could have just come to earth, and died in just one day.

The sinless life of Jesus was, for an example for us to follow.

He kept all 10 commandments to show us...that it could be done, thru the power of God.
Believing in Jesus Christ means....to also do everything He said to do.

As I've mentioned before.....the gospels (Matthew , Mark, luke and John), which portrays the life of Jesus Christ should have, top priority, in ones daily Bible study plan.

 

[Heidi]

trying to get others to doubt their salvation is from the devil

True enough.

But then again, God may be speaking to those who have but only partialy accepted salvation.
There is FAR MORE....than is generally accepted, at face value !

Many, if not most accept, the idea of Christ's death on the cross, and burial and resurrection...and think that's all there is to it.
BIG MISTAKE !!!

Because if that was all there was to it......then, Christ's life of 33 years on earth was basicly a waste of time.
When He could have just come to earth, and died in just one day.

The sinless life of Jesus was, for an example for us to follow.

He kept all 10 commandments to show us...that it could be done, thru the power of God.
Believing in Jesus Christ means....to also do everything He said to do.

As I've mentioned before.....the gospels (Matthew , Mark, luke and John), which portrays the life of Jesus Christ should have, top priority, in ones daily Bible study plan.

How can you partially accept salvation? That's like being slightly pregnant! One either knows Jesus or he doesn't. Jesus says; "Now this is eternal life; that they know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

You cannot both know someone exists and not know it at the same time.

The NT was written to show us what God wants for our lives. Some will produce less fruit than others and they, as Paul said, will enter heaven only as "one escaping through the flames." But he also said; "they will still be saved. "

 

[PHIL121]

I think I've mentioned it before, but it bears repeating. Many people who accept Christ often do so jsut to be 'one of the crowd'. These of the seeds that fell on rocky or thorny ground as Jesus told in Luke 8:4-15 . I personally don't consider them saved, because their faith is not a true faith. (sorta like the way judges, lawyers and politcians don't their oaths seriously anymore :roll: )

In any event, I feel that evangelicals often commit the same mistake as Catholics who practice infant baptism. They rush to have someone accept Christ, but really explain what it means or follow up on the new found believer.

Butsuch is thenature of the materialistic rat-race our world has become

 

[thessalonian]

trying to get others to doubt their salvation is from the devil

True enough.

But then again, God may be speaking to those who have but only partialy accepted salvation.
There is FAR MORE....than is generally accepted, at face value !

Many, if not most accept, the idea of Christ's death on the cross, and burial and resurrection...and think that's all there is to it.
BIG MISTAKE !!!

Because if that was all there was to it......then, Christ's life of 33 years on earth was basicly a waste of time.
When He could have just come to earth, and died in just one day.

The sinless life of Jesus was, for an example for us to follow.

He kept all 10 commandments to show us...that it could be done, thru the power of God.
Believing in Jesus Christ means....to also do everything He said to do.

As I've mentioned before.....the gospels (Matthew , Mark, luke and John), which portrays the life of Jesus Christ should have, top priority, in ones daily Bible study plan.

How can you partially accept salvation? That's like being slightly pregnant! One either knows Jesus or he doesn't. Jesus says; "Now this is eternal life; that they know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

You cannot both know someone exists and not know it at the same time.

The NT was written to show us what God wants for our lives. Some will produce less fruit than others and they, as Paul said, will enter heaven only as "one escaping through the flames." But he also said; "they will still be saved. "

According to scripture you are not correct. We can be weak in faith. We can have faith that is not the size of a mustard seed. There are those on milk and those on meat. We grow in faith or we can in fact loose faith.

It's not a light switch. It's a potentiometer.
We can believe but still from time to time have doudts.

 

[Heidi]

I think I've mentioned it before, but it bears repeating. Many people who accept Christ often do so jsut to be 'one of the crowd'. These of the seeds that fell on rocky or thorny ground as Jesus told in Luke 8:4-15 . I personally don't consider them saved, because their faith is not a true faith. (sorta like the way judges, lawyers and politcians don't their oaths seriously anymore :roll: )

In any event, I feel that evangelicals often commit the same mistake as Catholics who practice infant baptism. They rush to have someone accept Christ, but really explain what it means or follow up on the new found believer.

Butsuch is thenature of the materialistic rat-race our world has become

One is only saved if he has received the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is what saves us, not our human nature. "Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

[von]

The Holy Spirit convicts us, Jesus Christ saves us. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. The Holy Spirit did not shed His blood, Jesus did.

 

[thessalonian]

The Holy Spirit convicts us, Jesus Christ saves us. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. The Holy Spirit did not shed His blood, Jesus did.

While I understand your focusing on Jesus sacrifice, I have to disagree with you. Though I do think your post highlites an area where there is a huge gap in Protestant theology. The critical question is what is grace. We are saved by grace alone. Christ earned grace for us on the cross but grace is transmitted to us via the Holy Spirit. Christ made it possible by his death for the Holy Spirit to come in and restore us to friendship with God, cleansing us of all our sin. That is what saves. We actually have the Trinity in us if we are new creations in Christ.

Blessings

 

[von]

You can't recieve the Holy Spirit without first accepting Christ. The Holy Spirit doesn't come first, only to draw you to Christ.

 

[thessalonian]

You can't recieve the Holy Spirit without first accepting Christ. The Holy Spirit doesn't come first, only to draw you to Christ.

The Holy Spirit works externally on men to bring them to accepting Christ. The Holy Spirit can dwell within man and cleanse him of his sin and sanctify him when he believes in Christ. You are correct that belief comes first in salvation. Yet, we cannot separate the Holy Spirit from salvation. To do so is to separate grace from salvation.

 

[Jay T]

I think I've mentioned it before, but it bears repeating. Many people who accept Christ often do so jsut to be 'one of the crowd'. These of the seeds that fell on rocky or thorny ground as Jesus told in Luke 8:4-15 . I personally don't consider them saved, because their faith is not a true faith. (sorta like the way judges, lawyers and politcians don't their oaths seriously anymore :roll: )

There is a BIble Verse which I see everyone is eeither ignoring, or flat out rejecting......
1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him".
Those who keep al 10 mcommandments, as found in Exodus 20:3-17....is the fruit, of the born-again person, as to having Jesus Christ in their lives or not.