OSAS....Not !

[Heidi]

I think I've mentioned it before, but it bears repeating. Many people who accept Christ often do so jsut to be 'one of the crowd'. These of the seeds that fell on rocky or thorny ground as Jesus told in Luke 8:4-15 . I personally don't consider them saved, because their faith is not a true faith. (sorta like the way judges, lawyers and politcians don't their oaths seriously anymore :roll: )

In any event, I feel that evangelicals often commit the same mistake as Catholics who practice infant baptism. They rush to have someone accept Christ, but really explain what it means or follow up on the new found believer.

Butsuch is thenature of the materialistic rat-race our world has become

Good post, Phil. And that is why those who have received the Holy Spirit inside them can never be snatched out of Christ's hand because "the one who is in you is greater than the one in the world." The Holy Spirit can never jump back out of a person which is why no one can ever be unborn again. But as Jesus tells us there will be many who call him Lord who will not enter the kingdom of heaven even though they've casted out demons and performed miracles in his name, and the reason he gives for this is; "I never knew you." So this is a classic passage that tell us that works do not save. "By their fruits you will recognize them."

 

[Jay T]

" So this is a classic passage that tell us that works do not save. "By their fruits you will recognize them."

True enough.
Those who keep the commandments of God are the ones who has Jesus Christ, within their lives, guilding them on their daily schedules.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[SputnikBoy]

But as Jesus tells us there will be many who call him Lord who will not enter the kingdom of heaven even though they've casted out demons and performed miracles in his name, and the reason he gives for this is; "I never knew you." So this is a classic passage that tell us that works do not save. "By their fruits you will recognize them."

Isn't that a contradiction in terms, Heidi? Aren't 'their fruits' their visible Christian works? You seem to have a specific mindset which prevents you from grasping the point on this issue. I don't think anyone is saying that 'works' save ...only that someone who has accepted Christ WILL bear fruit (exhibit good works) BECAUSE they have accepted Him.

You've already stated previously that having the Holy Spirit within you results in your keeping the commandments of God ...i.e. loving God and your neighbor. So, what exactly is the issue with you ...is it the FOURTH commandment that doesn't quite fit in with Holy Spirit guidance in your life? Surely you don't have a problem with any of the other nine, do you?

 

[Heidi]

You can't recieve the Holy Spirit without first accepting Christ. The Holy Spirit doesn't come first, only to draw you to Christ.

The Holy Spirit works externally on men to bring them to accepting Christ. The Holy Spirit can dwell within man and cleanse him of his sin and sanctify him when he believes in Christ. You are correct that belief comes first in salvation. Yet, we cannot separate the Holy Spirit from salvation. To do so is to separate grace from salvation.

Actually, it was the other way around for me. I hadn't a clue that Christ was alive and well until I received the Holy Spirit and neither did Paul. This is confirmed by Ephesiais 2:8-9 that faith is a gift from God, not from ourselves. And since faith and belief are synonymous, Paul makes it clear that no one can believe first, then accept salvation.

 

[Jay T]

This is confirmed by Ephesiais 2:8-9 that faith is a gift from God, not from ourselves.

Why is it that most people leave off verse 10, of Ephesians 2:8,9.......2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. The works mentioned.....are they the commandments of God, such as the 4th commandment, the 7th day Sabbath ?

 

[Ajax 777]

What happens to the new creature born again from above, do you kill it? If you have sex with another man's wife, I have to doubt your salvation...wheat and tares.

How can the heart that God has uncircumcised be given it's skin back? At which point does one lose salvation?

Those who believe you can lose your salvation get to above Romans 5 and don't continue on reading.

Quote: The issue that is paramount is whether the saving work of Christ on the cross includes the safekeeping of the one who trusts Him, or not. This is the central and precise issue in the controversy. Either Christ did enough by His death concerning the believer's sins that it can be said that "there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" (though it is not said that there is no chastisement), or He did not. p. 274.

John 10:27-30: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand. My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one."

When do the sheep stop hearing Christ's voice, what sin is it that separates us from the love of God and kills the new nature?

j

HALLELUJAH TO YA!!! =)

 

[Jay T]

When do the sheep stop hearing Christ's voice,

When a person starts to think to themselves: "God Says, But I Think".

what sin is it that separates us from the love of God and kills the new nature?

From my experience....it is the command to keep the 4th commandment, the 7th day Sabbath is where the Christian begins to ignore or flat reject God's will.

 

[cj]

Actually, it was the other way around for me. I hadn't a clue that Christ was alive and well until I received the Holy Spirit and neither did Paul. This is confirmed by Ephesiais 2:8-9 that faith is a gift from God, not from ourselves. And since faith and belief are synonymous, Paul makes it clear that no one can believe first, then accept salvation.

When you say things like you did above Heidi you expose your weak understanding of the scriptures.

Adam believe God and called his wife Eve.

Abel believed God and offered a blood sacrifice.

Enoch believed God and did not suffer death, but was taken.

Noah believed God and found favor in His sight.


..... And this is declared in just the first six chapters of the bible, there are many others who believed God without receiving a regenerated spirit in which the Spirit of Life comes to dwell.


You make a grand statement about "faith and belief" being synonymous, but then you erroneously conclude that this to faith/belief is only possible after one's salvation.

From your speaking Heidi you show us that you really don't know much truth about any of these matters.


Heidi, there is a very good reason why God's word tells us that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. And this very good reason is also found in the reality of the scripture that tells us that God plan of redeeming His creation was initiated from eternity past.


This is the truth about slavation Heidi,........ the salvation of men has been a reality from before men were even created. All men starting with Adam have lived under this truth/salvation from the time of their birth.

In fact, it is absolutely clear that God preached the saving gospel to Adam in the garden and that both Adam and Eve believed this saving gospel.


Heidi, the deth of Christ was a visible point in time to which all men are connected, believer's and unbelievers alike, to their eternal salvation or their eternal damnation.

Men are not saved because the receive the Spirit, men are saved because they believe. This is what the bible says.

The receiving of the Spirit into our regenerated spirit has to do with the further promise God made to Abraham, a promise that added more to a man's salvation, a promise that is in reality fulfilled in men during the church-age.

Heidi, the bible tells us that there were righteous men living on the earth at the time of Jesus' birth.

And if they were righteous, which we must believe they were if we believe the speaking of the bible to be true, then we must also believe that they are saved according to this righteousness.

Before Jesus was revealed to men, men only had the shadow of Jesus to believe in; and this shadow was the law of God with the propitiation made by the offerings.

Therefore, before Jesus was revealed men were accounted righteous in as much as they believed in and kept the law of God.

No they did not receive the Spirit according to the better NT promise/covenant, but absolutely they believed and were/are saved.

Yet, now that Jesus has come, during this age of the church, there is only one way to be saved and that is to believe into and confess Jesus Christ.


Heidi, each age has its own particular salvation economy that God has ordained.

Before the law it God's economy of salvation was based on men believing what was to come.

During the law God's economy of salvation was based on believing His law and carrying out its requirements.

After Christ birth God's economy of salvation was based on man believing in Christ and confessing His name.

And even in the new creation there will be a divine economy of life for some,.... this being the eating of the leaves of the tree of life. Some men will need to eat these leaves but others (those who believed in Christ and were saved and filled with Christ as life, the NT covenant) won't.



This is a fact Heidi, if Paul had and died before Christ was born, and he had been righteous in the law, Paul would have been a saved man.

What invalidated Paul's salvation under the law is that Christ had come and thus the law (the shadow of That which was to come) was superseeded by its Reality (He who had come).



In love,
cj

 

[cj]

From my experience....it is the command to keep the 4th commandment, the 7th day Sabbath is where the Christian begins to ignore or flat reject God's will.

Are you then saying that all believers who keep this particular commandment according to the OT form, always do God's will?


Of course not, for this would be foolish of you to say, as it would contradict what God's word says about all men.

Jay T, the very fact that men who keep this commandment according to the outward OT form still sin, is all the proof needed to invalidate your false concept of believers needing to outwardly "keep" the 4th commandment.

The fact is, you break one commandment you break all.

And I personally know that you and all other men cannot keep all the commandments.

Therefore, I personally know that the claim by men that they "keep" the 4th commandment by holding to the past form of the Saturday sabbath, is untrue and thus only serves as a mocking of God and His commandments.

The fact is, now that the true Sabbath, Christ Jesus, has come, any attempt to "keep" the Saturday sabbath is simply a mocking of reality of His coming.

This is the truth,... every time you claim to "keep" the sabbath of God by continuing the OT form of Saturday rest and worship" you in fact are rejecting Christ and all that He has accomplished.

You are in fact rejecting the NT covenant of God in favor of the OT covenant of God.


In love,
cj

 

[Ajax 777]

cj, I praise God in Heaven for the wisdom which He just spoke through you, after reading that post you just made.

This is one brother in Christ who gives you his loving thanks for your obedient reply, and may He be glorified for remaining faithful, even if we are not, and praise the Name of the Lord for his Spiritual gifts He gives to his true children.

MAN, what a BLESSING our Father in Heaven truly is! Hallelujah to ya. :-D

 

[Heidi]

Actually, it was the other way around for me. I hadn't a clue that Christ was alive and well until I received the Holy Spirit and neither did Paul. This is confirmed by Ephesiais 2:8-9 that faith is a gift from God, not from ourselves. And since faith and belief are synonymous, Paul makes it clear that no one can believe first, then accept salvation.

When you say things like you did above Heidi you expose your weak understanding of the scriptures.

Adam believe God and called his wife Eve.

Abel believed God and offered a blood sacrifice.

Enoch believed God and did not suffer death, but was taken.

Noah believed God and found favor in His sight.


..... And this is declared in just the first six chapters of the bible, there are many others who believed God without receiving a regenerated spirit in which the Spirit of Life comes to dwell.


You make a grand statement about "faith and belief" being synonymous, but then you erroneously conclude that this to faith/belief is only possible after one's salvation.

From your speaking Heidi you show us that you really don't know much truth about any of these matters.


Heidi, there is a very good reason why God's word tells us that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. And this very good reason is also found in the reality of the scripture that tells us that God plan of redeeming His creation was initiated from eternity past.


This is the truth about slavation Heidi,........ the salvation of men has been a reality from before men were even created. All men starting with Adam have lived under this truth/salvation from the time of their birth.

In fact, it is absolutely clear that God preached the saving gospel to Adam in the garden and that both Adam and Eve believed this saving gospel.


Heidi, the deth of Christ was a visible point in time to which all men are connected, believer's and unbelievers alike, to their eternal salvation or their eternal damnation.

Men are not saved because the receive the Spirit, men are saved because they believe. This is what the bible says.

The receiving of the Spirit into our regenerated spirit has to do with the further promise God made to Abraham, a promise that added more to a man's salvation, a promise that is in reality fulfilled in men during the church-age.

Heidi, the bible tells us that there were righteous men living on the earth at the time of Jesus' birth.

And if they were righteous, which we must believe they were if we believe the speaking of the bible to be true, then we must also believe that they are saved according to this righteousness.

Before Jesus was revealed to men, men only had the shadow of Jesus to believe in; and this shadow was the law of God with the propitiation made by the offerings.

Therefore, before Jesus was revealed men were accounted righteous in as much as they believed in and kept the law of God.

No they did not receive the Spirit according to the better NT promise/covenant, but absolutely they believed and were/are saved.

Yet, now that Jesus has come, during this age of the church, there is only one way to be saved and that is to believe into and confess Jesus Christ.


Heidi, each age has its own particular salvation economy that God has ordained.

Before the law it God's economy of salvation was based on men believing what was to come.

During the law God's economy of salvation was based on believing His law and carrying out its requirements.

After Christ birth God's economy of salvation was based on man believing in Christ and confessing His name.

And even in the new creation there will be a divine economy of life for some,.... this being the eating of the leaves of the tree of life. Some men will need to eat these leaves but others (those who believed in Christ and were saved and filled with Christ as life, the NT covenant) won't.



This is a fact Heidi, if Paul had and died before Christ was born, and he had been righteous in the law, Paul would have been a saved man.

What invalidated Paul's salvation under the law is that Christ had come and thus the law (the shadow of That which was to come) was superseeded by its Reality (He who had come).



In love,
cj

Do you not believe Paul when he said;

"The man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned"? Yes or no.

Do you also not believe him when he said;

"For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit in him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."?

Do you also not believe him when he said;

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old is gone and the new has come."

Do you not believe Jesus when he said; "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you?"

Do you also not believe Jesus when he said, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven"?

Do you also not believe Paul when he said; "Do you not realize you have Christ Jesus living in you?"

Do you also not believe Paul when he said; "For you are saved by grace through faith-and this notfrom yourselves-it is the gift from God, not by works so that no one can boast"?

Again, whodo you think gives us the ability to know Christ and believe him? The toothfairy?

Those who lived before Christ only rose from their graves after Christ died. But since Christ's death as Jesus says, only those born again of water and the Spirit will enter heaven.

Again, I could not have faith before I received the Holy Spirit because as Ephesians 2:8-9 says, that our faith (which is our ability to believe) comes from the Holy Spirit, not our sinful nature. So until we are born again of the Spirit, we not only cannot understand the things from God, but we cannot know him and believe him either.

In OT times, God dispensed the Holy Spirit at will which allowed people to believe. He also took it away at times as was the case with Saul. But only after pentecost did he make it available as an indwelling Spirit to all who were chosen before the creation of the world. And that is why Jesus said that we must be born again of the Spirit in order to believe. "Do you not know that you have Christ jesus living in you?"

 

[Heidi]

To put it succinctly, Cj, faith comes from the Holy Spirit, not our superior wisdom and intelligence, and works come from faith. That's it in a nutshell. That contradicts nothing in the bible. Zilch. It also gives God the credit for all the good that we do, and our ability to believe, not our wonderful selves. And if you disagree with that, then you disagree with the bible and are engaging in the sin of pride, in which case there's no point in discussing this issue further with you.

 

[cj]

.......... in which case there's no point in discussing this issue further with you.

Heidi, the only reason you feel that there is no point in discussing this issue with me is simply because you are offended by what I say.

And the truth regarding your offended feelings is not what I say but that you do not understand the things I say.

Honestly Heidi, the pride problem sits squarely on your shoulders.


In love,
cj

 

[Jay T]

From my experience....it is the command to keep the 4th commandment, the 7th day Sabbath is where the Christian begins to ignore or flat reject God's will.

Are you then saying that all believers who keep this particular commandment according to the OT form, always do God's will?


Of course not, for this would be foolish of you to say, as it would contradict what God's word says about all men.

Jay T, the very fact that men who keep this commandment according to the outward OT form still sin, is all the proof needed to invalidate your false concept of believers needing to outwardly "keep" the 4th commandment.

It is the will of God that mankind is to keep all the commandments of God....Eccl. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

The Commandments of God, is the standard by which God uses, to Judge every person in the Day of God's Judgment.

 

[(Omega)]

Hello All!

Although there are passages which seemingly teach that a born-again believer is capable of losing their salvation, here are common arguments from Conditional Security proponents and my refutations of them.

Conditional Security is a doctrine which teaches that a Genuine Born-again Believer is capable of losing their Salvation. The scriptures do not teach us that Salvation once obtained can be lost as I will prove definitively. I would like to clarify that I am not a Calvinist, and do not rely upon his teachings but on the Authority of the Word of God alone. The doctrine of Eternal Security is often taken advantage of by the emissaries of the enemy who turn the Grace of God into lasciviousness, neglecting the consequences of willfully sinning while teaching that Salvation is secured regardless of a lifestyle of sin. This often leads to a "falling away" (apostasia) because of the exclusion of genuine repentance, lack of understanding and application of the Word accompanied by mere verbal acknowledgment. Genuine Repentance is brought about by the believers gratitude for what Christ has done for them on the cross and the believer no longer lives the rest of his/her time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. They are those who received seed into the good ground who both hear and understand the word while bringing forth fruits.(Matthew 13:23), and continuing in His word.

(MY SHEEP) hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. ( John 10:27,28 KJV )

Jesus' does not speak conditionally about His sheep, but rather the facts concerning them. They are not given eternal life based on the "conditions" that they continue to obey and follow Him, rather they are given eternal life because they are His (Jesus') sheep and the characteristics of His sheep are found in this passage. A present, indicative active is connotative of a continuous action. What are the characteristics of His sheep? His sheep hears (akouo:, ak-oo'-o; to perceive and to understand [present, indicative active]) His voice, and He knows (ginosko, ghin-oce'-ko;possessing deep, intimate knowledge of [present, indicative active]) them, and they follow (akoloutheo, ak-ol-oo-theh'-o;to accompany (specially, as a disciple):--follow, reach. [present, indicative active]) Him, and He gives (didomi, did'-o-mee; to bestow a gift [present, indicative active]) unto them eternal life and they shall never (ou me, oo may; certainly not, not at all, by no means)[emphatic double negative] perish (apollumi, ap-ol'-loo-mee; state if ruin, to be lost, die, mar).

There are Goats and there are Sheeps. Jesus knows His sheep and they continually hear His voice and they continually follow Him and He gives them eternal life and they will never perish, i.e., they do not "Fall Away" and they do not become lost or "Lose their Salvation". Who are those who are not known by Jesus, nor continually hear His voice, nor continually follow Him, nor are given eternal life?

GOATS!

Most conditional security adherents will argue that the sheep by their free will can choose to walk away. Free will doesn't work here, if those by their "free will" choose to walk away, fall away, lose their belief, then they are those who failed in continuing to hear His voice, failed in continuing to follow Jesus, thus they do not possess the facts concerning the characteristics of Jesus' sheep. Therefore they can only be GOATS!

Free-will which can somehow lead a born again believer to willfull sinning and lose their salvation is contrary to the nature of the born-again believer, the scripture states:

John 1:12,13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Which were born [aorist passive indicative](who were begotten) of God and no longer living to the lusts of the flesh or the sinful desires or their own will, but rather Gods.

There are many who accuse the doctrine of Eternal Security as a lie straight out of the pit of hell and a license to sin (Antimoniansim) due to their spiritual blindness. These accusations deny the nature of the Born-Again Believer as found in scriptures, and those who use OSAS as a license to sin deny the Truth and altogether reject the atoning sacrifice of Christ which brings about "repentance".

CHARACTERISTICS AND NATURE OF THE BORN AGAIN BELIEVER:

IS BORN:[1080] gennao, ghen-nah'-o; from a variation of 1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1 John 5:4)

IF the person fails to "overcome", how then are they born of God? Because 1 John 5:4 says that whatsoever is born [begotten] of God (perfect, passive) overcometh (present, indicative active) the world, which is literally stating that being born of God is a past event and is concluded in a future state and indicates that the one born of God continually overcomes because of their continuous struggles, i.e., they keep on overcoming the world, not somehow falling short and losing their salvation through unbelief. This victory which overcometh the world is "overcoming faith" produced by those who have been born of God and produces continuous victory. Conditional Security adherents argue that not all who are born of God infallibly overcomes, however that passage clearly states that "whatsovever" (pas:each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything) is born of God continually overcomes. Using the neuter {to gegeneemenon} John is literally saying (all that has been, begotten of God) overcomes the world. John uses this most likely because the word children in the greek are neuter. In context, that passage implies that those born of God continually overcome because of an action which began in the past (born of God)[perfect passive] and continues to the present.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin (does not practice sin); for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)

How is it possible for a born-again believer to lose their salvation if the person who is born of God (perfect, passive) does not practice sin? and his/her seed remains (present, indicative active)? Conditional Security adherents state that a saved person can lose their salvation by willfilly sinning which is a complete antithesis of a born-again believer! Conditional Security adherents may also argue that who is to say that the believer will not sin in the future and lose their salvation? The term "doth not commit sin" when taken in context with the rest of scripture equates to "he cannot go on sinning" which clearly implies that this person will not even in a future state commit unrepentant sin continually, because the person born of God does not practice it.

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:29)

To every one "that doeth" [present active participle] righteousness is "is born" [perfect passive indicative]. The present active participle of "that doeth" righteousness implies an ongoing activity which continues even to the moment, and the perfect passive indicative of "is born" [stands begotten] is used to indicate not what someone did but what the person underwent as a result of another persons action. Thus that passage clearly teaches us that someone who has been born of God continually practices righteousness as the result of a past event. In order to obtain Salvation one must first be born of God, and the scriptures teach us that those who are born of God do not willfully sin which is contrary to the conditional security belief of a born again believer reverting to a sinful lifestyle and ultimately losing their salvation.

Does the scriptures teach us that our Salvation is secured?

1 Peter 1:3-5 - Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The portrayal of salvation looks to the future. The author of salvation is portrayed as the blessed God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. The lively hope has no element of uncertainty, for it is guaranteed by Jesus' resurrection from the dead. The believers inheritance is described as incorruptible (aphtharton), imperishable or indestructible, and undefiled (morally untainted). That fadeth not away (amaranton), meaning that it is not subject to the damages of time. Furthermore, it is reserved (teteremenen)[perfect tense], i.e., it has been preserved in the past and is till in heaven. Kept is a present passive participle which implies that we are secure because we are continually guarded by God.

Common objections from Conditional Security adherents:

Objection #1

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Although there are but a few scriptures which teach that a person can lose a form of faith, there are no passages which alludes to the loss of salvation of those who possess genuine belief. I will explain what Genuine Belief is in a while if you please bear with me. The above passage is often used to describe how a believer can depart from their faith which once brought about their Salvation. However close examination of this passage in the correct context proves otherwise. First lets take a look at the definition of the word "Apostasy"

REFUTATION

APOSTASY. A "falling away." The common classical use of the word has to do with a political defection (Genesis 14:4, LXX; 2 Chronicles 13:6, LXX; Acts 5:37). In the NT its more usual meaning is that of a religious defection (21:21; 4:1; 3:12). This is called "apostasy from the faith" (apostasia a fide): a secession from the church, and a disowning of the name of Christ. Some of its peculiar characteristics are mentioned, such as seducing spirits, doctrines of demons, hypocritical lying, a seared conscience, forbidding of marriage and of meats, a form of godliness without the power (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:5). The grave nature of apostasy is shown by such passages as Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:15-21, and John 15:22. Apostasy as the act of a professed Christian, who knowingly and deliberately rejects revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ (1 John 4:1-3) and redemption through His atoning sacrifice (Philippians 3:18; 2 Peter 2:1) is different from error, which may be the result of ignorance (Acts 19:1-6), or heresy, which may be the result of falling into the snare of Satan (2 Timothy 2:25-26). Both error and heresy may accordingly be consistent with true faith. On the other hand, apostasy departs from the faith but not from the outward profession of it (2 Timothy 3:5). Apostasy, whether among the angels (Isaiah 14:12-14; Ezekiel 28:15; Jude 6), in Israel (Isaiah 1:1-6; 5:5-7), or in the church (Revelation 3:14-16) is irremediable and awaits judgment. Mankind's apostasy in Adam (Genesis 3:6-7) is curable only through the sacrifice of Christ. Apostates apparently can only be professors and not actual possessors of true salvation, otherwise their defection would incur severe chastening or, if this failed to restore them, untimely (physical) death (1 Corinthians 5:5; 11:32; 1 John 5:16).
M.F.U.
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois.)

"Shall depart from": aphistemi [868]aphistemi, af-is'-tay-mee; from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:--depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

• Luke 2:37 - And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed[868]not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.[/*:m:b05e5]
• Luke 4:13 - And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed[868] from him for a season. [/*:m:b05e5]
• Acts 12:10 - When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed[868] from him. [/*:m:b05e5]
• Acts 15:38 - But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed[868] from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work. [/*:m:b05e5]
• Acts 19:9 - But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed[868] from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.[/*:m:b05e5]
• Acts 22:29 - Then straightway they departed[868] from him which should have examined him: and the chief captain also was afraid, after he knew that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him. [/*:m:b05e5]
• 2 Corinthians 12:8 - For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart[868] from me.[/*:m:b05e5]
• 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart[868] from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.[/*:m:b05e5]
• (SAME BOOK)1 Timothy 6:5 - Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself[868] [/*:m:b05e5]

Above are crystal clear examples of how the word "DEPART" implies withdrawal or to remove oneself from, and in conjunction with "the faith" implies a falling away from the Gospel with no indication of the loss of Salvation from those who once obtained it or possessed faith. Now lets examine the definition of "The Faith" and how it is used in context.

"The Faith": pisteuo [4102]pistis, pis'-tis; from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

• Holding the mystery of the faith[4102] in a pure conscience. (1 Timothy 3:9)[/*:m:b05e5]
• Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith[4102]: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Timothy 1:2)[/*:m:b05e5]
• For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith[4102] which is in Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 3:13)[/*:m:b05e5]
• Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith[4102], giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. (1 Timothy 4:1)][/*:m:b05e5]
• But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied (arneomai:to reject, refuse or not accept) the faith[4102], and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8) [/*:m:b05e5]
• For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred(apoplanao:to stray from the truth), from the faith[4102], and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10)[/*:m:b05e5]
• Which some professing have erred(astocheo:deviate from)concerning the faith[4102]. Grace be with thee. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:21)[/*:m:b05e5]

Timothy is referred to as Paul's "own son in (the faith);" not Paul's "own son in (faith), Paul is obviously not calling Timothy his son by faith. "Holding the mystery of the faith;" not "Holding the mystery of faith". It is not faith which is a mystery but "the faith" or the Gospel of truth of Jesus or God as in (Rom. 16:25; Mk. 4:11; Matt. 13:11; Eph. 3:3,4) both referring to the truth of God and not trust or personal faith in God and both are found in 1 Timothy. The usage of the word (pistis) is determined by the context of the passage, and not if there is an exclusion or inclusion of the definite article ("the"). Any bible student, scholar, pastor or even anyone possessing a basic understanding of grammatical context can see for themselves that at face value, "the faith" in context clearly refers to the Gospel or the truth of God. Nowhere in 1 Timothy 4:1 does it prove that possessors of Salvation somehow lost it! I have demonstrated with precise context how Conditional Security adherents have taken 1 Timothy 4:1 out of context and conformed it to their personal opinions and interpretation to suit their false doctrine. Here are primary examples of how the word "faith" is used in context to imply possession of faith in the person who is trusting in Christ/God.

• Matthew 9:2 - And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith [4102]said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. [/*:m:b05e5]
• Mark 2:5 - When Jesus saw their faith[4102], he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. [/*:m:b05e5]
• Luke 5:20 - And when he saw their faith[4102], he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. [/*:m:b05e5]

False converts and self-professed christians alike can depart from the revealed truth of Christ and/or the Gospel without ever having been rooted in faith which is possessed by the person. Muslims who may have a momentary change of heart can also have the truth of Christ and/or the Gospel revealed to them and can wilfully and deliberately reject it even after days, weeks or even months of hearing it. However because faith was never rooted or possessed within them, they depart or fall away from (the faith) or the truth regarding the deity of Christ and redemption through His atoning sacrifice, never having obtained Salvation! Although there are those who disagree with this interpretation and consider it departure from faith in God through Christ, the context of that passage makes the distinction between the truth of God "The Faith" [ten pistin] (Gospel) and Seducing Spirits and Doctrines of Demons. Greek scholars also take note that "the" before "faith" is an idiom which can also be used in the Greek language to indicate a possessive pronoun, so which is which? The contrast between the faith and doctrines of demons show in context that "the faith" refers to the truth regarding the deity of Christ and the redemption through His atoning sacrifice and not possessive faith, both doctrines of demons and the faith are creeds!

Objection #2

Colossians 1:23 - If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Here is another favorite used by conditional security adherents. They claim that Paul is warning the church to continue in the faith or else it might result in the loss of salvation. However this passage is often misinterpreted by those who lack knowledge of greek defintions and the context in which it is applied. They further state that "Eigi(e)" is found in 5 times in the KJV and always indicate to mean "unless" Those verse are 2 Corinthians 5:3, Galatians 3:4, Ephesians 3:2, 4:21, and Colossians 1:23.

REFUTATION

Actually in Colossians 1:23, that particular "if" (eigi) is followed by an indicative verb, meaning that the "if" clause is always considered to be true. In other words it is rendered in its correct context as "If you continue, and you will." This is not a condition brought about by Paul, but rather an exhortation.

Objection #3

Hebrews 10:26,27 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Again another favorite of Conditional Security adherents, this passage according to them teaches that it is possible for a born-again believer to lose their salvation by willfully sinning. Not only does my previous explanation of a born-again believer deny the nature of sinning willfully, this verse is also misinterpreted and taken out of context.

REFUTATION

Verses 26-31 contain the fourth warning passage of (Hebrews 2:1-4). The surrounding verses (19-31) contain related exhortations, but the warning itself is limited to these verses. They warn of the critical danger of turning from Christ's once-for-all, perfect sacrifice back to their old ways. IF we sin willfully reveals that this act is deliberate. It parallels the sin found in Numbers 15:30,31. When one defiantly or willingly disobeyed God, there was no sacrifice for such apostasy. This person had to die. This is the nature of sin in verse 26. Verse 28 seems to allude to Deuteronomy 17:2-7. These verses record that upon the testimony of two or three witnesses, death by stoning was the punishment for (apostasy)-going after and serving false gods (Deut. 17:2) Now in verse 29, the one who would despise the person of Jesus and His ministry as High Priest is worthy of even greater judgment. Verse 29 due to the verb and the participles used, should not be understood as judgment that has happened because of such apostasy, but as judgment that would happen should such apostasy occur. The author places his recipients and himself (we) under this warning just as he did in the earlier warnings, NOTE: Paul was persuaded (peitho), the perfect tense which is an indications that Paul was persuaded in the past and remains so now, that God is able to keep the assurance of his Salvation which is committed to him against that day. (2 Tim. 1:12), in other words, Paul was absolutely certain without a hint of doubt that his Salvation was secured [Even Dan Corner the author of the 801 page lie of Conditional Security Himself agrees], and yet he (Paul) is among the recipients of Hebrews 10:16-31, therefore this passage is purely hypothetical in nature! Furthermore by doing so he demonstrates that the warnings are intended for the saved as well as for the unsaved. Yet, here, as in Chapter 6, the author does not say that anyone has committed this sin! He describes what would happen, not what has happened. He is describing a hypothetical situation. The stern admonition of this warning, and all others found in scripture, is God's means to ensure our perseverance, and those who Genuinely Believe will adhere to these commands because the Spirit gives us understanding of it.

Objection #4

Luke 8:13 - They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

This is probably one of the strongest arguments which seemingly teaches us that salvation can be lost since that passage clearly teaches that there are some who in fact can believe for a while then "fall away"

REFUTATION

The same word for "believe" {pisteuo} is used in Luke 8:13 and also in James 2:19, therefore to state that the person that "falls away" after they have believed {pisteuo} for a while were once saved is misconstruing that passage. The demons of James 2:19 still "believe" that Jesus is the Son of God, however they do not possess a the faith which "saves". As a matter of fact the demons acknowledged that Jesus was in fact the "SON OF GOD" (Mark 5:7), and as we know that the demons are destined for the lake of fire. Faith which is not "rooted" is dead faith because it fails to take effect or bring about growth. Furthermore "fall away" (skandalizo) [stumble] does not imply loss of salvation since the disciples were to be offended (skandalizo)or stumble(Matt. 26:31), especially Peter(Matt. 26:70-75). We then find that our intercessor Christ prayed that Peters faith would "fail not"(Luke 22:32). Not only does Christ intercede on behalf of Peter and the disciples, but also on our behalf (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 8:6, 9:15, 12:24). Furthermore the word for "root" is (rhiza) which can also be a metaphor for and offspring (Revelation 22:16). An offspring according to the Greek is interpreted as a (genos)descendant or related by blood. Thus the person who "falls away" can be spoken of as one who was never born into the family of God or begotten of Him (not an offspring), not being born again of the spirit.

Objection #5

John 6:66 - From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

This is used by conditional security adherents to prove that salvation can indeed be lost, however the reason for this is poor understanding of scripture and the context of the passage in its entirety.

REFUTATION

First of all lets take a look at the meaning of the word Disciple:[3101]mathetes, math-ay-tes'; from 3129; a learner, i.e. pupil:--disciple. Does a learner or pupil equate to a Child of God? When we read the entire chapter of John 6, we come to the realization that many of those who followed Jesus followed after Him for the loaves of bread and the fish. Salvation is secured by Grace through Faith, not just by acquiring knowledge of the teachings of Christ. Nowhere does that passage indicate any loss of salvation, misinterpreting scriptures to appeal to a favored doctrine most of the times, if not all times leads many to self-deception and heresy.

Objection #6

2 Peter 2:20-22 - For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This is another favorites used by Conditional Security adherents who oftentimes conform the scriptures to appeal to their doctrine. When the Bible is taken to heart as a whole and given understanding by the spirit, this passage reveals the condition of someone who was never born again. Before any conditional security advocate disagrees, please take this passage to heart and in its exegetical format.

REFUTATION

This passage states that the dog returns to his vomit, because of their nature it is what dogs do. Just as the sow (pig) returns to wallowing in the mire because of their nature it is what a pig does. Does the true proverb state that the sheep is turned to his own vomit again? It doesn't! Since the dog is turned to his own vomit again, the dog had always been a dog. This is a clear implication that both the dog and the pig has had any change in their nature. In other words that passage is implying that neither the dog nor the pig had experienced being "born again" and thus remain in their unregenerate state. Nowhere in that passage is there any hint that either creature had been born-again into a different species and then born-again into their old nature. The scriptures explain in detail that the born-again believer is a new creature and that the old things are passed away (2 Cor. 5:17). The aorist tense indicates a decisive break with the old life at the moment of salvation. Behold, all things are become new which literally means "New things have come to be" , Paul changes to the perfect tense to stress the abiding results of the Christians union with Christ. Furthermore that passage speaks of false prophets and false teachers who deny the Lord which implicates false confession. Being bought does not indicate being "blood bought" and having obtaining salvation but their denial of Christ's atonement which potentially extends to all men.(Heb. 10:12; John 3:16). Their open denial of Christ and their continuous rejection of the way of truth clearly indicates one who has never been born again.

Objection #7

Hebrews 6:4-6 - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

One of the strongest arguments against Eternal Security, however a trained workman of God will have the ability to discern the truth of this passage as understood in its correct context.

REFUTATION

This passage does not teach that a person can lose their salvation through apostasy or disbelief. These verses refer to a hypothetical situation whereby the author stresses what would happen to a saved person if he could fall away. The author does not believe that a person is able to lose their salvation, or that his readers had (v. 9); but he so speaks to demonstrate the folly some might have in imagining that they can turn back to Judaism without suffering loss. The author is not writing about his readers (v.4, those), he still is writing for their sakes (v.9, you). If they shall fall away is the translation given to the fifth participle of the passage. This is a legitimate and even common grammatical usage by the author within the warning passages (2:3; 10:26; 6:8). The first four participles refer to actual blessings whereas number five describes a potential situation, and so can be translated unlike the first four.

Objection #8

Matthew 10:22 - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

This verse is commonly used by Conditional Security adherents to prove that Salvation is a certainty only at the end of our lives. Not only is that an absurdity, but the bible clearly teaches that we are able to know for certainty that we possess Eternal Life!

REFUTATION

First of all the bible teaches us that we are able to know without a shadow of a doubt that we possess eternal life without waiting until the end to know if we are actually saved. Notice that Jesus does not specifically state within that verse that the act of being saved actually refers to Salvation. The word for saved is [4982]sozo, sode'-zo; from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole. Now to implicate that the word saved refers to Salvation is stretching that passage. They are delivered from the destructive wrath of God which is to be poured out upon the workers of iniquity, and not the act of salvation which has yet to be acquired. Furtheremore, not only do the scriptures teach that the born-again believer overcomes the world but that Salvation is a gift we can be certain that we possess. Here is the PROOF!

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)

"Ye may know" is [perfect active subjunctive] which means that it is possible to know intuitively that we have eternal life, and that this knowledge is established within us. Jesus did not say that the only way to know with absolute certainty that we possess salvation is that it is determined at the end, otherwise it would be in direct conflict with scriptures and the bible has no contradictions.

Objection #9

Romans 11:16-22 - For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Conditional Security adherents use the term "cut off" in this passage to refer to loss of salvation. However the exegetical format of this passage proves nothing of the sort.

REFUTATION

This is to ask whether Israel has stumbled so badly that they have fallen completely out of God's program. Is there no future for Israel? Paul shows that Israel's apparent rejection is not permanent because of God's purposes for Israel's rejection, and the promise of her restoration. If "cut off" refers to loss of salvation then apparently the jews had lost their salvation, because Romans 11:11 reads: I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. (Romans 11:11 NAS) When Israel was "cut off", did they lose their salvation? God intends on bringing them back. This passage does not speak of Israel or the Gentiles as individuals, but collectively. Thus implying that "cut off" refers to loss of salvation is misconstruing that passage. Being cut off refers to the blessing from God and is not restricted to salvation only. We lose our blessings not our salvation! God is able to bring His sheep which has wandered off back into the fold (Matt. 12:11). Furthermore, Paul is referring to the Gentiles as a whole, not individually, and is stating that God can and will cut them off from the promise of salvation if they were to become and unbelieving people. Conditional Security advocates often try and parallel Romans 11 to John 15 and the severed branches which I will later refute.

Objection #10

Hebrews 3:12-14 - Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Ok, how do the Conditional Security adherents misinterpret this passage as the possibility of a born-again believer losing their salvation?

REFUTATION

This stern warning is directed towards Jewish Christians "brethren" or professing believers. The hebrew brethren were tempted to return to Judaism. The phrase "an evil heart" is found only mentioned twice in the Old Testament and goes beyond just unbelief, but rather a denial to believe or disbelief. How does an "EVIL HEART" of "UNBELIEF" indicate someone who has been saved by Grace throughFAITH??? "Evil heart" accompanied by "Unbelief" is the complete and utter antithesis of a born-again believer! So who "departs"(aphistemi) from the living God? an Unbeliever! Many warning passages are found throughout scripture regarding a departure from the faith, not as a reminder that salvation can be lost but rather we are indeed a Genuine Believer. The scriptures state:

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.(2 Corinthians 13:5,6)

The word reprobate (adokimos) is translated as "counterfeits", Paul declared that he himself was not a reprobate which brings me to my next refuation which supposedly teaches that Paul feared losing his salvation and becoming a castaway.

Objection #11

1 Corinthians 9:24,27 - Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Did Paul truly fear losing his salvation? Castaway is often translated to mean a "reprobate" by Conditional Security adherents since the same word "adokimos" (castaway) is used to define a reprobate (2 Cor. 13:5). So did Paul fear becoming a reprobate or losing his salvation? Lets see!

REFUTATION

I myself should be a castaway is translated "So that...I myself will not be disqualified". Paul didn't fear losing his salvation, but feared being rejected and qualified to preach the Gospel, his prize that he sought after is not salvation because the context of that passage CLEARLY describes what prize Paul sought after:

What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. (1 Corinthians 9:18)

Paul's prize obviously was to preach the Gospel for free as stated in the above verse. Nowhere does that passage describe Paul fearing losing his salvation. Furthermore, Paul could not have feared becoming a reprobate "adokimos" as conditional security adherents state because Paul himself stated that he himself IS NOT a reprobate(2 Cor. 13:6) and was absolutely certain that his salvation cannot and could not be lost(2 Tim. 1:12). Paul had instructed Timothy on the qualifications on preaching the Gospel (1 Tim. 3:1-13), when Christ returns, He will judge and give rewards to these pastors according to their fidelity and leadership within the Church. Paul recognized that proper training and disciplining Himself or bringing his body into submission was a necessity in order to be qualified as one who is able to teach and instruct others in the Gospel, or else he will be disqualified.

Objection #12

John 15:2-6 - Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Conditional Security use the term "in me" to represent believers in Christ to establish their thesis that these branches in Christ (believers) can be severered and cast into the fire (hell). Is this true? Does every branch in Christ represent a born-again believer? and can a born again believer be cast into hellfire?

REFUTATION

• The unproductive branch is cast into the fire to be burned.[/*:m:b05e5]
• The unproductive branch fails to produce any fruit at all.[/*:m:b05e5]
• The unproductive branch fails to abide (present tense) in the vine.[/*:m:b05e5]

John 15:2 actually states that the branches that are "pruned" are pruned to bring forth (MORE FRUIT), not loss of salvation. The branches that do not bring forth fruit are not "pruned" (kathairo:cleanse or to remove any impurity), they are "taken away" (airo:remove, put away). If "in me" represents a born-again believer than an unproductive and withered branch which is cast into the fire to be burned also represents an believer, in other words Jesus is casting a BELIEVER into hell! The branch which is cast into the fire "NEVER" produces fruit, e.g., it does not bring forth fruit and then ceases to produce, it NEVER brings forth any fruit at all! John 15 is parallel to the parable of the wheat(sitos:true convert) and the tares(zizanion:false converts) found in Matthew 13:24-30. Both the wheat and the tares grow together as with the fruitless unproductive and the fruitful branches, and at the harvest the tares are cast into the fire to be burned as with the unproductive fruitless branches. John 15 never speaks of a born-again believer being cast into the lake of fire. What do you call a branch which does not produce any fruit? a "dead" branch! Now does common sense tell us that a dead branch represents a regenerate person? it tells us that this person is still "dead" in their sins!

Objection #13

Matthew 7:22,23 - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is used to prove that Salvation can be lost since only the saved can cast out demons and perform miracles. The question is have these workers of iniquity actually casted out demons and performed miracles?

REFUTATION

These workers of iniquity ask Jesus several questions, they are:

1).Have we not prophesied in your name?
2).And in your name have cast out devils?
3).And in your name done many wonderful works?

And what is Jesus' answer?
NO! I NEVER KNEW YOU!
Which is to say that these men and women who claimed to cast out demons and perform miracles were frauds, prophesying in the name of Jesus for selfish motives. If in fact these people genuinely cast out demons and performed miracles in Jesus name, then Jesus' answer would have been "I once knew you", not "I never knew you"

Objection #14

Galatians 5:4 - Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Does fallen from Grace imply that salvation has been lost?

REFUTATION

Not much of a stumper! Ye are fallen from grace [second aorist active indicative] which translates to "you did fall out of grace" does not indicate that they were actually once saved by Grace. Renouncing grace by faith alone is another way of saying that we can depend on legalism to secure our salvation which demonstrates that these people never truly knew Gods Grace in the first place. It is written:

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)

Objection #15

Ezekiel 33:18 - When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

According to conditional security adherents, the righteous can be construed as the saved and the above passage can be interpreted that the saved can habitually sin and thereby lose their salvation, is this true?

REFUTATION

First of all, As it is written: there is none righteous, no, not one, for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Secondly, it is also written:For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in any one point, he is guilty of all. Thirdly, again it is also written:Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. NONE of the Old Testament saint were able to do such, thus they are all "Guilty", and the wages of sin (miss the mark) is death! Christ came to redeem the OT Saints and us from this curse. Salvation is based not on our merits but on Christs atoning sacrifice on the cross and our trust in His finished work. Abraham was divinely given justification because of his belief in Gods promises, the law simply points out our sin and leads us to Christ, who alone is able to do away with our sin. All our so called righteousness is not able to save us because our righteousness is like unto filthy rags. God Himself knew that no man or woman would be able to do all that is written in the book, which is why He sent His only begotten Son into this world to redeem us from this curse and by becoming accursed for us. When God introduced salvation and complete redemption in the New Testament, He gave us the promise of the Holy Spirit who is to guide us into all truth, convict (elegcho) us of sin [point out our faults or errors] and of righteousness (desire to walk morally upright), and of judgment. We are now "sealed" with that holy Spirit of promise, which was not given in like manner to the Old Testament saints, thus they were able to fall from their righteousness, not that their righteousness could have somehow saved them. Thus the born-again believer has the yearning to walk in righteousness and not to turn away from it.

Objection #16

Philippians 2:12 - Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Conditional Security adherents state that Paul would not have warned Christians to work out their Salvation with "fear and trembling" if they did not have the possibility to lose it, is this true?

REFUTATION

That passage is not saying that we ought to work for salvation in order for us to obtain it. The phrase "work out" in the Greek denotes the manifestation, expression and the actuality of something one already has. This exhortation tells the Philippians that they are to "work out" their salvation God has already wrought in them. "With fear and trembling" implies that they are to do this with caution and an anxiousness to do what is right. Nowhere in that verse does it teach us that we should fear salvation God has already wrought in us.

Objection #17

Galatians 6:8,9 - For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

According to Conditional Security adherents, we will reap eternal life if we do not faint. They stress a potential situtation where the believer may faint and therefore lose their salvation, true?

REFUTATION

The contrast between the spirit and the flesh is the distinction between "Judaism and Christianity", e.g., circumcision of the flesh and circumcision of the heart. The apostle was stating that those who put their reliance upon ceremonial laws and rites in order to obtain salvation will inevitably reap destruction and misery in the latter.

Objection #18

Matthew 25:1-12 - Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Since the majority of bible teachers agree that the "oil" represents the Holy Spirit, the foolish virgins who are about to run out of oil proves that they are able to lose the Holy Spirit, thus losing their salvation, is this true?

REFUTATION

I am not bias when it comes to scriptural interpretations, both the Conditional and Eternal Security Adherents misinterpret this passage with faulty refutations. Conditional Security adherents state that the foolish virgins lost their salvation "oil" (Holy Spirit), while the Eternal Security adherents state that the foolish virgins never had any oil to begin with. The foolish virgins had come to the sudden realization that their lamps (lampas:oil lamp) were "going out", which is an indication that they had oil to begin with. The wise virgins had "extra oil" which is representative of the Holy Spirit, which is why they told the foolish virgins to buy this extra oil (Holy Spirit), purchased by Christ's blood (Ephesians 1:14) and given freely by Gods Grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8). The oil in general which the foolish virgins possessed does not represent the Holy Spirit, but their spirit which was to experience eternal separation from God "I know you not", the lamp represents their life. The extra oil which the wise virgins possessed represented the (Holy Spirit) "Eternal Life". The scripture teaches us that he who has the Son has life, and he who doesn't have the Son shall not see life, i.e., their lamps will go out!

Objection #19

Hebrews 12:15 - Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled. Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears

Failing of the grace of God according to conditional security adherents means to lose ones salvation. What is the correct interpretation of this passage in context?

REFUTATION

To fail of the grace of God has nothing to do with losing one’s salvation; it means to fall short of obtaining salvation or being saved. The context of that passage makes this clear, Esau is given as an example of one who had failed of the grace of God. He demonstrated that he was not a believer, his concerns were worldly rather than the things of God. He considered a bowl of soup to be of more value then his birthright as Isaac's son. How does coming short of the grace of God imply loss of salvation when the Grace of God was never obtained to begin with?

Objection #20

Revelation 22:19 - And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

If a person's name, can be...taken out...of the book of life, how can there be such a thing as OSAS ?

REFUTATION

IF a persons name can be taken out? Why would such a message be given if it were not possible? Jesus clearly said "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already. The words of Jesus are said to be FAITHFUL and TRUE to those who Believe on Him!

• Revelation 1:5 - And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,[/*:m:b05e5]
• Revelation 3:14 - And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;[/*:m:b05e5]
• Revelation 19:11 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [/*:m:b05e5]
• Revelation 21:5 - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. [/*:m:b05e5]
• Revelation 22:6 - And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. [/*:m:b05e5]

Now what kind of person takes away the words of Christ and of God away from the Book of Revelation, even when the Book of Revelation clearly said that the words of that Book which comes from the Word of God is FAITHFUL AND TRUE? AN UNBELIEVER!

Objection #21

1 Corinthians 15:2 - By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

This passage according to conditional security adherents says that unless (IF) we continue in our faith then our salvation will be severed. But does this passage actually mean that those who are saved are prone to abandoning their faith and thus lose their salvation?

REFUTATION

If the Corinthians fail to retain the Gospel than they would have believed in vain, i.e., "belief without effect" or belief without a purpose. James 2:14 states that "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" Believing in vain is what James calls "dead faith", this dead faith cannot save a person according to James 2:14 because the Gospel fails to take effect. This type of dead faith which cannot save a person is also found in Luke 8:13 where there are those who believe for a while but have "no root" (without effect, dead faith), therefore they "fall away". 1 Corinthians 15:2 does not teach us that someone with sincere and genuine faith which saves can in a future state have believed in vain, or lose their salvation. When the scriptures teach us that we are saved by Grace through (faith) and that if we (believe in our hearts) we will be saved, this is not what the scriptures refer to as "DEAD FAITH", or belief without a purpose.

Objection #22

2 Thessalonians 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

.

A Falling away (apostasia) is used by conditional security adherents to substantiate that this passage teaches that those who "defect from the truth" were in fact saved and therefore lose their salvation. How accurate is their interpretation?

REFUTATION

This is a legitimate question which is often dodged by conditional security adherents, "how can anyone be certain that those who "fall away" were in fact saved?" They counter with, "how do you know they were not?" So who is teaching that those who apostasize were saved? They are! Only God Himself has The final say in this, because only He is able to search the inner hearts of men and women (Rev. 2:23). If you are a pre-trib rapturist, then you obviously know that the Church will be removed before the son of perdition (the antichrist) is revealed. My point? 2 Thessalonians 2:3 states that those who fall away, fall away before the appearing of the antichrist, thus they would have to be false converts since the Church(Genuine Converts) are removed! And if you aren't a pre-trib rapturist then you must consider the fact that the angels(reapers) will separate the "tares" from the "wheat", i.e., the false converts from the true converts at the end of the world, or the end of the age which is the same time period where the son of perdition is revealed. Those who apostasize in the end times are more than likely tares(false converts), nowhere can it be proven in that passage that Genuine Believers depart from their faith and lose their salvation. Only a bias opinion and interpretation can come to this conclusion.But the ultimate refutation lies in the fact that those who fall away were clearly not saved, proof? in the same passage in verse 10 it reads:

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2 Thessalonians 2:10)

Contextually in that very passage and in that same chapter it speaks of those who fall away because of (strong delusion) because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. In other words, they were in fact not saved because they rejected the love of the truth. When were those who fell away saved? they weren't! They were false professors of the faith since they did not receive the love (agape) of the truth.

Objection #23

Luke 15:24 - For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

According to conditional security proponents, the phrase "alive again" is a clear indication that the son had once obtained salvation because it is apparent that he was once alive. Is this what this parable teaches? Does this parable tell us about a son of God who lost his salvation and then somehow regained it?

REFUTATION

When we are "alive again" we are alive twice obviously. We are born once physically, and born twice because we are born-again spiritually. We are alive once because you are given life by God when you are brought into this world as a human being, and we are alive again because you are regenerated and are born-again. The phrase "alive again" is analogous of "born again" , not being born again twice!

Take a look at Luke 15:24 in context, it states that (For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.) His son wasn't found twice, he was alive twice and found once, neither was he lost twice.

God Bless!

 

[thessalonian]

Apostates in heaven? There's a theory born every minute along with another denomination. I had a protestant the other day post a nice plausable sounding article that the wailing and gnashing of teeth was in heaven as well. That there is suffering in heaven. :-? :o . I had thought I had seen it all. Now these are two new theories about the Bible "truth" that we are set free by. Of course both of these theories will be defended, perhaps even to death.

Blessings

 

[farley]

OSAS is, obviously, a major point of contention with all Christians.

Let me offer a passage which, in my view, seems to give a concise, total, absolute, final resolution to the dispute.

1 Timothy 4:1-3 KJV
(1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
(2) Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
(3) Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

What say ye, advocates of OSAS?

In Christ,

farley

 

[thessalonian]

I should mention also that that article about there being wailing and gnashing of teeth in heaven was in defense of OSAS as well.

There are many verses that indicate that one who believed no longer believed like the one farely pointed out above. There is also in the first 5 chapters of John's Gospel many passages that talk about the belief of the disciples. Then in chapter 6 it says they turn and walk with him no more. Obviously no longer believing. So the theory that there are no such passages is a strech at best. There is no verse that says "they never believed", only that "they were never really one of us". That is different. It means they may have had the grace to bring them to faith but did not have the grace of perseverence. One cannot fall away from what he was never on. Who would say of a man under a tree, "oh, you fell from the tree", unless there was some evidence, a broken limb or something? It's silly. He cannot be "severed from Christ" or "cut off" if he was never joined to Christ.

Another issue in all of this is we try to limit the discussion to two categories. Yet to me there are three or four. There are the believers of course who do persevere in faith. There are those who are pretend believers who did in fact never really believe. Then there are those who believe and then wilt away in the heat and weeds. Then of course there are the ones who never really hear. It seems to me that scripture deals with all of these, the last indirectly. Think about it.

The only way one knows if they are in the first category is if they continue in the faith and continue to do good and avoid evil in faith in Christ.

Blessings

Blessings

 

[Solo]

OSAS is, obviously, a major point of contention with all Christians.

Let me offer a passage which, in my view, seems to give a concise, total, absolute, final resolution to the dispute.

1 Timothy 4:1-3 KJV
(1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
(2) Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
(3) Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

What say ye, advocates of OSAS?

In Christ,

farley

And where in that scripture does it mention that believers who depart from the faith lose their salvation? It says nothing at all about the Spirit departing the individuals, nor does it say that their salvation is lost. It only says that they have departed the doctrines of faith and have replaced the doctrine of faith with doctrines of devils. The flesh of a person is able to persuade a believer to ignore the Spirit and allow one to walk in the flesh. The Bible teaches perseverence in the faith, not giving ones control over to the flesh, but instead to walk in the Spirit.

One can not be unborn again. It is impossible, just as it says in Hebrews. Christ needs only to be crucified one time for all sins, and a believer only has to be born again one time in order to gain the free salvation.

How many times do you believe that one must be born again in order to be saved? Is God not able to save a sinner through the death and resurrection of his only Son once for all time? My God is able and he will let no man or no spirit from stealing the free gift of salvation from me, whether I choose to walk in the flesh or not. Simple.

 

[thessalonian]

One can not be unborn again.

The analogy is faulty. Obviously we are born once. But sin is akin to physical death in the scriptures (i.e. spiritual death). One can die, once they have been born. Christ showed he did have the power to raise the dead. This is what is possible.