OSAS....Not !

[SputnikBoy]

Many people don't understand what 'being born again' means. They seem to have no concept of this 'new creation'.

Hi Merry Menagerie

I agree and second that motion. MM could you please start a thread on
what 'being born again' means. I believe OSAS can be grasped more easily once 'being born again' really means.


u r Blessed

xicali

As long as you agree and second MM's notion, then why don't YOU start a thread on what being 'born again' really means, xicali? Or do you require MM to do your thinking for you?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Any chance of some kind of response to this previous post of mine? I feel that it deserves one.

AVBunyan: "If a person thinks they can really lose it then they most likely don't have 'it'."

Or, alternatively, if a person really believes they CAN'T lose it then they may just as likely not have 'it' either, perhaps? I remember a practicing prostitute on the Phil Donahue Show some years back coming up with the OSAS tag. She really believed what she was saying. Was she right or wrong?

What I see problematic is the terminology itself. 'Once Saved - Always Saved' sends a false message to the 'not so bright' of which there are many. The promoting of this doctrine in the manner of 'one can live like the devil as long as one gives regular lip service' is irresponsible at best and destructive at worst. This silly misrepresentation of OSAS is possibly leading many people astray because they don't know any better.

So many of the supporters of OSAS seem to be more absorbed in 'self' than they are on the well-being of others. So, if the 'more scholarly' among us can look beyond themselves for a few seconds ...just think about it from the other person's perspective. Caution is required when promoting this man-made term (OSAS) as opposed to one's using it with such irresponsible abandon.

 

[Heidi]

Many people don't understand what 'being born again' means. They seem to have no concept of this 'new creation'.

There is no being born again, its all a feeley feeley expeirence. Get the goosebumps because you think God died for you and since every believer is almost at the most pathetic and empty place in there lives when they become born again, a shot of love makes you feel better and loved, which all you are craving anyway. After you are "born again" who is really making the choices in your life, you are. All this is is a spiritual awakening, we can thank God for that, but to say its Jesus, I doubt it. How many other religions and stuff do they have that people go through this same experience, but yet there's is wrong because of who they think God is? Every other person that has a spiritual awakening is not really feeling or experincing this because its not Jesus?, honestly think about it and if you can say other people who do have spiritual awakening are fake because of what they may believe God is not jesus then you really need to open your eyes to life.

Your post shows that you only understand what pathetic is. You understand it all too well. But if you become born again, you'll understand love, peace, joy, hope, and thanksgiving. You can never understand those without the Holy Spirit. :

You forget that we too once put all our hope in worldly things which crumble and fade away. Been there done that. It only leads to death.

 

[AVBunyan]

Any chance of some kind of response to this previous post of mine? I feel that it deserves one.
1. Or, alternatively, if a person really believes they CAN'T lose it then they may just as likely not have 'it' either, perhaps?

2. The promoting of this doctrine in the manner of 'one can live like the devil as long as one gives regular lip service' is irresponsible at best and destructive at worst.

3. So many of the supporters of OSAS seem to be more absorbed in 'self' than they are on the well-being of others.

1. This is possible – especially if this person is trusting in anything other than Christ alone.

2. True grace believers have never promoted living like the devil and giving lip service. True grace believers believe:

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We believe doctrine determines duty. We believe grace teaches one how to live. Your accusation is so old and tired and I’ve responded to this point so much I've grown weary.

And yes, there are true believers and false believers who live wrong. One’s salvation is not determined by their living but their living often is an indication of what they truly believe.

It is highly possible that you do not understand depravity or true grace.

3. Wrong again – true grace believers are hung up on Christ alone for justification. “Lose-its†are hung up on self-justification - they just can't see it.

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

God bless

 

[Solo]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:3-14

 

[Jay T]

You ought to study this aspect of Christianity.

Sorry, but I can't let this statement get away !

The whole gospel.....the very essense of Christianity is....enabling man to keep the Law of God...thru the power of God.

Jesus Christ proved, it could be done !

 

[Merry Menagerie]

The key words here are 'power of God'...and it's through this 'power of God' that we are kept until the day of redemption.

You ALMOST have it - but stubborness may be stopping you from seeing the big picture here and realising exactly how powerful God is who works in us and through us.

 

[Solo]

You ought to study this aspect of Christianity.

Sorry, but I can't let this statement get away !

The whole gospel.....the very essense of Christianity is....enabling man to keep the Law of God...thru the power of God.

Jesus Christ proved, it could be done !

Why haven't you been able to keep the Law of God then? I know that Jesus proved it could be done, because the Word of God says that all that are born of God can not sin. Jesus is the only begotten son of God, and all believers have been born of God when born again according to Jesus (John 3). God's Word also tells us that we are sealed until the day of redemption by God himself in Ephesians 4.

So why do believers sin? What part of a believer is prone to sin according to the scriptures? If sinning sends sends one to hell after being born again, what hope is there?

Since you enjoy studying the Word of God, please review my previous post of Ephesians 1 and explain it to us. Thanks.

 

[xicali]

Many people don't understand what 'being born again' means. They seem to have no concept of this 'new creation'.

Hi Merry Menagerie

I agree and second that motion. MM could you please start a thread on
what 'being born again' means. I believe OSAS can be grasped more easily once 'being born again' really means.


u r Blessed

xicali

As long as you agree and second MM's notion, then why don't YOU start a thread on what being 'born again' really means, xicali? Or do you require MM to do your thinking for you?

I'm being polite here. The holy Spirit is working on her It's her topic.

U R Blessed ing:

Xicali

 

[Jay T]

So why do believers sin?

AH.....Believers do not sin.
Why ?
Because believers, believe in exactly what Jesus Christ says: 'go and sin no more'.
They know that they haven't the power within themselves to not sin, but relying up on grace, which is God's free gift to obey, what He says to do, enables them to trust in God totally, so any temptatrion to commit sin, is overcome.

What part of a believer is prone to sin according to the scriptures?

sin always begins in the mind, before it becomes action.

If sinning sends sends one to hell after being born again, what hope is there?

as long as a person draws breath, there is hope.

 

[Jay T]

Since you enjoy studying the Word of God, please review my previous post of Ephesians 1 and explain it to us. Thanks.

1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. So as not to fall into any lenghty discussion, what would you like me to comment on specifically ?
Predestination ?
Adoption ?

 

[Solo]

So why do believers sin?

AH.....Believers do not sin.
Why ?
Because believers, believe in exactly what Jesus Christ says: 'go and sin no more'.
They know that they haven't the power within themselves to not sin, but relying up on grace, which is God's free gift to obey, what He says to do, enables them to trust in God totally, so any temptatrion to commit sin, is overcome.

So what does this verse of scripture say to you?

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

What part of a believer is prone to sin according to the scriptures?

sin always begins in the mind, before it becomes action.

Does the corrupt, mortal flesh sin, or does the born of God spirit of the born again believer sin?

If sinning sends sends one to hell after being born again, what hope is there?

as long as a person draws breath, there is hope.

How is there hope? If a believer sins and is bound for hell, then how does that person get saved again? Does he have to be born again every time he sins, or are his sins paid for by Jesus' crucifixion for all time?

 

[Jay T]

How is there hope? If a believer sins and is bound for hell, then how does that person get saved again?

It must be remembered that saved is not a one time shot.
Being saved, is a matter of progression as it were.
"We are being saved", as in light of a progressive experience.
It is a growth process, as Jesus mentioned in the parable of Mark 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

Does he have to be born again every time he sins, or are his sins paid for by Jesus' crucifixion for all time?

A born-again person has had their sins forgiven, right ?
Now, they are a new creature, with new thoughts and attitudes.
They wish to show their gratitude to Jesus Christ for all He has done for them.
And, Jesus mentioned how, they were to show their gratitude....by keeping the commandments...IF...they really loved Him.
"IF..you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15)

Satan understands this point, all too well !

And, another reason he tries to undermine, commandment-keeping, as having any importance in the Christian's walk with God..

 

[Servant_2000]

First John was a whole letter written. You can't pull one verse in 2 and one verse in 3 and come up with an assumption. First John tells us what the commandments are:

23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Adventists pull pieces from 1 John to say the commandments are the ten commandments, but you can see, the letter itself defines it's own definitions.

Regarding alcohol, scripture only says not to be drunk, and there are times wine is encouraged for different ailments. I personally don't drink, but the only scripture mandate is not to be drunk.

One warning: Make sure what you understand as the "law of God" is not equivalent to the SDAs definition of it. They think the "Law" is limited to the 10 Commandments, where in reality, the law can refer to the pentatuch or just the law from Sinai.

In the sermon on the mount, Jesus mixes 10 C commandments with those from the handwritten law without division or distinction. The law still exists to point out sin. And it condemns the sinner, but it cannot make one righteous, only Christ can do that. Once the cross is your path to salvation, the "law of God" has no more power to condemn you, as Jesus clothes you with His righteousness and we are no longer "guilty". That doesn't mean we can run "willynilly" in the street doing what we want. A truly transformed heart will grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord and our "want tos" will change too...some slower than others.

 

[Heidi]

The law exists to convict us of sin. Therefore, it is, and always will be true. But when Christ died for us, we are no longer a slave to the law in regard to salvation. We are saved by Grace, not by works and Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us. And that is a fact.

But that does not mean that the law is worthless and no longer applies. it simply means that now we obey the law out of love for God instead of to get to heaven. That has been taken care of through Christi's death. Now to honor and love our Lord, we ask him for forgiveness which fills our hearts with love and gratitude and that, is how we obey the commandmets; out of love in our hearts. Wehn we sin, we simply ask God for forgiveness which replaces the sin with his love. So this talk about losing one's salvation is impossible because that has been taken care of through Christ's death on the cross for us.

 

[Vic C.]

But that does not mean that the law is worthless and no longer applies. it simply means that now we obey the law out of love for God instead of to get to heaven.

I'm not diminishing the importance of the Law but Heidi, are you sure about that? Doesn't God's word show us that no one is capable of keeping the whole law? Where is it written that man once had to keep the Law to be saved? I see Grace throughout the OT. Here are just a few examples.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 39:4 And Joseph found grace in his sight, and he served him: and he made him overseer over his house, and all that he had he put into his hand.

Exo 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

Prov 3:34 Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

We also know from Scripture that Abraham and David (and others) surely were recipients of God's Grace throught their faith as well.

 

[cj]

But that does not mean that the law is worthless and no longer applies. it simply means that now we obey the law out of love for God instead of to get to heaven.

I'm not diminishing the importance of the Law but Heidi, are you sure about that? Doesn't God's word show us that no one is capable of keeping the whole law? Where is it written that man once had to keep the Law to be saved? I see Grace throughout the OT. Here are just a few examples.......

What many fail to see Vic is that these laws, the law, is an expression, not an ordinance.

God is the very essence and reality of all law, and when God is expressed law is seen.

And in this we find the reality of Jesus as it concerns the law; Jesus is law with us, God with us.

Therefore, when a believer becomes one with the Lord this believer becomes one with the law; you see the believer you see the law.


What some here are unable to escape is the law of the commandments in ordinances. They believe that there is still something to do rather than something to be.

But, as we receive Christ as our life He also by extension becomes our living, and in this He becomes our living out the law.

I am the law of God,....... in my born-again position.

When you see a born-again person you see God's law expressed in its fulness.

Heidi unfortunately struggles with this matter, as do most Christians, as a result of still abiding in bondage to the law of sin and death;.... and issue of holding onto things Christianity.



In love,
cj

 

[Jay T]

I'm not diminishing the importance of the Law but Heidi, are you sure about that? Doesn't God's word show us that no one is capable of keeping the whole law? Where is it written that man once had to keep the Law to be saved? I see Grace throughout the OT.

Hi Vic,
Actually, the Bible says that Abraham kept God's Law and commandments (Genesis 26:5).

And to the question about: 'Where in the Bible does it say man, is to keep God's Law' ?
Eccl. 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil".
Verse 14 clearly tells us, that the Law of God will be the standard, by which every person will be Judged by, in the Day of God's Judgment.

The whole purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ started, the day sin began...in the Garden of Eden.
Because sin is defined in the Bible, as breaking any one of God's commandments.

 

[Solo]

But that does not mean that the law is worthless and no longer applies. it simply means that now we obey the law out of love for God instead of to get to heaven.

I'm not diminishing the importance of the Law but Heidi, are you sure about that? Doesn't God's word show us that no one is capable of keeping the whole law? Where is it written that man once had to keep the Law to be saved? I see Grace throughout the OT. Here are just a few examples.......

What many fail to see Vic is that these laws, the law, is an expression, not an ordinance.

God is the very essence and reality of all law, and when God is expressed law is seen.

And in this we find the reality of Jesus as it concerns the law; Jesus is law with us, God with us.

Therefore, when a believer becomes one with the Lord this believer becomes one with the law; you see the believer you see the law.


What some here are unable to escape is the law of the commandments in ordinances. They believe that there is still something to do rather than something to be.

But, as we receive Christ as our life He also by extension becomes our living, and in this He becomes our living out the law.

I am the law of God,....... in my born-again position.

When you see a born-again person you see God's law expressed in its fulness.

Heidi unfortunately struggles with this matter, as do most Christians, as a result of still abiding in bondage to the law of sin and death;.... and issue of holding onto things Christianity.



In love,
cj

Nice concise and precise explanation.
Thanks for the clarity of truth.
Michael

 

[cj]

The whole purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ started, the day sin began...in the Garden of Eden.
Because sin is defined in the Bible, as breaking any one of God's commandments.

JayT,... please understand that I am not attacking your person with the following comment. Don't become offended, but try to see what is being said.


Your above statement is completely in error.

And why?

Because of your holding to a false doctrine that can only produce a result of folly.


Allow me to explain;

You say,... "The whole purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ started, the day sin began...in the Garden of Eden.

But God says that sin began when iniquity was found in Lucifer, which happened long before the Garden of Eden was created.

Thus by extension your belief concerning when "The whole purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ started,..." is also in error.

Where then does that leave you? If you do not know the truth about these two most basic of God-related matters.

Not good JayT.



You say,.... "Because sin is defined in the Bible, as breaking any one of God's commandments."

Actually its not.

Sin is, in essence, the mind of Satan expressed.

The law on the other hand is the mind of God expressed.

Men sin, because they have the mind of Satan.

Consider Adam before the fall, did he sin? No.

Why? Because he had the mind of God.

And having the mind of God was not a matter of following an instruction, it was a matter of remaining in oneness with Him.

Sin, in its most simply definition, is being out of oneness with God.

But how is this oneness expressed?

This is what creation is for, that God may express Himself, in oneness, in His creation.

You see God's creation you see God. This is what the bible tells us regarding how it should be and how it will be (and even in little ways, how it can even be seen today, as a foretaste of what's to come.)

So wonderful, God created Adam to live in oneness with Him. But what about the instruction He gave to Adam, why did God need to give him instructions if Adam was in oneness with God?

Because God had and adversary in His creation, an enemy that He needed to deal with. And in His great wisdom He declared that He would deal with His adversary through a creature that was created lower.

Not only was God going to deal with His enemy, God was also going to shame His enemy to the utmost.

But that's not all,..... God was also going to "improve" His creation, He was going to step it up a notch higher than what existed in Lucifer's day (remember, scripture tells us that Lucifer "locked up perfection", meaning, nothing could be created that was more perfect than Lucifer.).

God declared that not only was He going to deal with Satan, He was going to shame him, and then He was going to create something that was even higher than Satan had ever been;....... God was going to join Himself to His creation. Something created would become God's actual glory.

Psalm 132, verses 13-18, are some of the most wonderful written words of God,

"For Jehovah has chosen Zion; He has desired it for His habitation.......

This..... IS.... My resting place forever;...... Here..... WILL I.... dwell,... FOR I HAVE DESIRED IT...... I WILL..... abundantly bless its provision;.... I WILL..... satisfy its poor with bread. And its priests... I WILL.... clothe with salvation, And its faithful ones will shout with a ringing shout. There.... I WILL.... cause a horn of David to shoot forth;.... I HAVE prepared a lamp for My anointed one..... I WILL.... clothe his enemies with shame, But on him his crown.... WILL.... shine."


And to these wonderful words, God added,... I will build My church..."


Lucifer fall was as a result of his "I wills"..... but God will be established as the result of His "I WILLS".


God gave instruction to Adam for the purpose of defeating His enemy.


And do you know what,..... Adam followed God's instructions perfectly: The,... last Adam.



And in doing so, gave God the way to righteously deal with His enemy.

And God dealt with His enemy: Satan is in the pit.

This is what scriptures tell us.


And if His enemy has been dealt with, what need therefore is there of instructions? For there is no longer an enemy to defeat.


In love,
cj