OSAS The Truth

[FreeGrace]

Every believer who is OSAS is disciplined so that his Spirit is saved at the end. What a joke?

Are you asking, or telling? No, it's no joke. That is EXACTLY what Paul indicated with the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5. He handed over to Satan that man for the destruction of the flesh (ultimate divine discipline) so his spirit would be saved.

And why do you ignore the promise of Rom 11:29? God's gifts of imputed righteousness and eternal life are IRREVOCABLE.

If that is so then there is no testing of faith.

Simply untrue. Of course there is testing of faith. One's eternal security isn't the issue in the testing of faith. Why does God give us tests? To strengthen our faith and He'll bless us and reward us. If we fail the test, He doesn't kill our eternal life, the gift that He has given us, or He would be breaking His promise. He disciplines us and we lose reward.

If what you said was true then Paul shouldn't have toiled so much to bring those great epistles for your spiritual growth.

I can't imagine where your thought process is for making this statement. Of course he should have toiled. He was being obedient to God's commands. Why do you think he was doing all that? To get or stay saved? That would be ridiculous, in light of what he wrote in Romans 11:29. God's gifts and calling are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm of the camp of Jesus Christ any doubts???

yep. Lots. Everyone who names the Name of Jesus Christ claims that camp. Yet, there are the Calvinist camp, Arminian camp, and others. Your "admission" here really isn't.

 

[FreeGrace]

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Maybe having a discussion with a farmer will help your perspective here. Someone very familiar with agriculture. Jesus was speaking about being useful to the Father. Israel started out being useful then messed up. So God turned to the Gentiles. But anyone who isn't productive will no longer be useful to God. That isn't about getting or even staying saved. It's not at all about salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

A believer has an irrevocable call from God in Christ.

Why stop there? Everyone who has believed also has gifts from God. Imputed righteousness, per Rom 5:15,17 and eternal life, per Rom 6:23. Those are also irrevocable. Or do you disagree?

 

[FreeGrace]

Remember you agreed to walk through this step by step.

And I complied.

Please just answer the question.

I did.

So in the next verse where Jesus says -

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


... who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

JLB says - Believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.= saved for a while but departed from the element that saved [faith]. The person no longer has faith…

So far, so good.

[/QUOTE]Freegrace says - Believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.= saved with no change from original salvation
True or False?[/QUOTE]
Of course true. Now, I've answered your question multiple times. One who has believed WILL BE saved, per Acts 16:31. Do you disagree with Paul's answer to the jailer? He used the aorist tense for "believe".

Someone posted that you addressed Rom 11:29, but I don't recall seeing anything. Could you please respond?

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, God is not the one who would be walking away, we are able to do that all by ourselves.

Yet, Paul wrote, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that "neither things (anything) present, nor things (anything) future, are able to separate us from the love of Christ". Do you believe what Paul wrote?

Those who walk away do so in the future. Not when they believed, but afterward. That is covered in Rom 8:38.

 

[FreeGrace]

You got to the root of that doctrine very quickly!

Good Point!

If God will make everyone choose Salvation, then why would Jesus need to go to the cross.

Man has a freewill to choose.

Before or after, Believing in Christ for salvation.

You just busted the myth of OSAS!

2:dunce

The myth is to believe that man has the power to unsave himself, which is basically your view. Man neither has the power to save himself, or to unsave himself. Thinking so is the myth here.

God saves, and God promises to keep. It's that simple.

Oh, and, God's gifts are irrevocable. That, my friend, busts the myth of loss of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes HE IS FAITHFUL, but WE can fail, we can walk away.

Do you see this has nothing to do with God? It is US who walk away....it is US failing, US forsaking....

It's not really about God, it's our choice.

The myth here is to believe that man can "unsave" himself, which is basically the non-OSAS view.

Man doesn't save himself. And man cannot unsave himself.

And God's gifts (imputed righteousness and eternal life) are IRREVOCABLE. Rom 11:29

 

[FreeGrace]

Regarding whether anyone knows if another is saved, the Lord said that "By their fruits ye shall know them" (Mt 7:20), and Paul speaks of "the fruits of righteousness" (2 Cor 9:10; Phil 1:11).

You've conflated 2 separate issues here. The context of Matt 7:20 begins at v.15 and the subject is false teachers. That doesn't relate in any way with 2 Cor 9 or Phil 1.

 

[FreeGrace]

There in lies your problem....."Its not really about God." Its all about the creature. And if you stick around long enough on eternal security, you will see that the loss of salvation camp will not dwell on what Christ did for the believer and the power/promise/gift/grace/mercy of Christ. But what the creature does for the creator.

God didn't save you, your freewill did.

God can't keep you saved, your freewill has to.

In the end it really isn't about God and His power/promise/gift/Grace/mercy to keep you saved.

He is relegated to a finite being that has the character, nature and faithfulness of a gnat.

 

[FreeGrace]

Well, he was a follower. That implies belief.

No it doesn't. There were many who followed Jesus, and for various reasons. One reason what that He was quite the provider of eats when crowds were hungry. Jn 6:26. Other reasons were for miracles, healings, etc. But when His teaching got quite personal, many quit following. John 6:60, 64, 66.

And the crowd that followed Jesus believed for a while and then they fell away.

You have no idea who believed and then fell away. Some clearly never believed in Him for eternal life. Not good to make blanket assumptions.

OSAS seems to say the obvious - God won't let us fall. That's true. And it implies we need his help. Indeed God must shorten the days of tribulation or no human being will be saved. Mt. 24:22

Sure. So, are you OSAS or non-OSAS? From that comment, it appears that you're OSAS.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"What verse says that God will save as long as one loves Him? There aren't any."

Jesus says "if you love Me keep my commands."

As I said, there aren't any. Where did Jesus include the caveat that He saves only as long as one loves? Not the verse you just quoted.

 

[Jesse]

People confuse walking away from God as leaving salvation. God has made promises to man. For example, God's gifts and calling are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). What are God's gifts? Imputed righteousness-Rom 5:15,17, and eternal life-Rom 6:23. We know who the called are; those who have believed-1:5,6,7, 8:28,30. These are irrevocable.


This is quite true, and very sad. But this doesn't mean loss of salvation. Rom 11:29.


What verse says that God will save as long as one loves Him? There aren't any.

Well, if you don't have a relationship with Christ he will say "I never knew you"...so what do you think? People who do not love the Lord will not inherit the Kingdom seems how that is the 1st, most important commandment - Love the Lord God with all your heart, mind and soul.

You think we can enter and disobey his commandments?

Obedience is not a "works" as so many people believe. Obedience is required, we are to be as Christ and that includes obedience.

 

[Chopper]

I asked this:
"What verse says that God will save as long as one loves Him? There aren't any."

As I said, there aren't any. Where did Jesus include the caveat that He saves only as long as one loves? Not the verse you just quoted.

There is a lot going on with this verse than you are aware of.

 

[Jesse]

The myth here is to believe that man can "unsave" himself, which is basically the non-OSAS view.

Man doesn't save himself. And man cannot unsave himself.

And God's gifts (imputed righteousness and eternal life) are IRREVOCABLE. Rom 11:29

But the requirement on our part is to ACCEPT his salvation, this is DOING something.

Our free will does not disappear upon our acceptance. Jesus said to abide in Him, this is an ongoing act on our part. We abide in Him in our obedience, yet we can disobey and walk away.

 

[Jesse]

I asked this:
"What verse says that God will save as long as one loves Him? There aren't any."

As I said, there aren't any. Where did Jesus include the caveat that He saves only as long as one loves? Not the verse you just quoted.

So we can disobey our entire lives....and remain saved. LOL

Here is the commandment according to freegrace:

Love the Lord (if you want to) with all your heart (whenever you feel like it), mind (when you think about it) and soul (but not really).

Did God mean what He said or not?

If you love him, you will keep his commandments.

 

[Karl]

I have been born again in 2004 and it was not just on a certain day everything changed. It took sometime to grasp the love of Christ. The word of God which inspired me was Revelation 7:9

I'm sorry if you are bothered but why do you want to consider yourself on OSAS side. I don't have any issues with OSAS except they differ in one place and that is

Please can you counter me on these points?

Sorry, I still don't understand the multiple quote thing, and I don't want to counter you on anything, that is not the Spirit of Christ in me,

"I have been born again in 2004 and it was not just on a certain day everything changed. It took sometime to grasp the love of Christ. The word of God which inspired me was Revelation 7:9"

If I understand you correctly, you can't pinpoint one certain day in you life time when you were born again, a day when you saw ALL of your sins before you, and at that exact moment in time you knew, beyond a shadow of doubt, that you were destined for Hell, and the Gospel message that you had been hearing up until that time was understandable like never before, what I'm saying is, before it was just words, but at this particular moment it was not only words, but power too,

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

and you chose to believe the Gospel and and you prayed to invite and receive Jesus into your heart, ...do you see what I'm saying?

I don't believe in instant births because the Word teaches there is a drawing period to Jesus first, there is a gestation period in all of creation before birth and so it is with a child of God, Paul tells us we were dead in our trespasses and sins, Eph 2:1 then the Divine fiat of "Let there be Light," illuminated our dead to God spirit and we started to be awakened to the things of God, if you were like me I felt the need to go to church, I even had a few ministries, but I wasn't born again, that came about one year after I started attending, I thought I was born again, ...I read my Bible, ...I served in the church, ...I gave of my money, but,

Which were born (again), not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:13

it was all the will of my flesh, and not of God, ...His will for me to be born again was on that Wednesday night in July of '86

let's talk about being born again to make certain before we go on to other subjects, why, because you said we OSASers are superficial and I'm proving to you that is not the case, in my church in the States before anyone could serve in ministry they had to be able to give the verse used and the date they were born again, and that is not just one church but in the thousands, all I'm doing is presenting the challenge of Paul to you,

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2Cor 13:5

The first and most important way I know Jesus is inside of me is my born again experience and the power that washed me of my sins and trespasses, that's why I know what verse and when it happened, and like I said, the very next day I no longer had the desire to participate in the sins I had been doing the day before, that's called repentance.

Please understand and don't make the mistake that I'm questioning your salvation, like Paul said, that is something only you can do, ...I'm just explaining how we are born again, ...because from your responses in this thread concerning the OP 1 Per 1:23, evidently you have never been taught.

Let's settle this and then we will talk about the other subjects you listed.

In His Love

 

[Karl]

So we can disobey our entire lives....and remain saved. LOL

Here is the commandment according to freegrace:

Love the Lord (if you want to) with all your heart (whenever you feel like it), mind (when you think about it) and soul (but not really).

Did God mean what He said or not?

If you love him, you will keep his commandments.

Why would I want to disobey?

Yes I had free will at the point when I was born again, but if we have a well grounded "father" that led us to the Lord he will advise us to turn that free will over to Jesus immediately, ...before we are born again satan is sitting on the throne that is in our hearts and ruling our lives, when we are born again he is booted out by Jesus, but, ...Jesus is a perfect Gentleman and He won't take the position until we ask Him to, that basically is the difference between a carnal Christian and one walking in the Spirit, ...so, when I was taught this I immediately asked Jesus to rule in my heart, ...the New Testament teaches I'm in Christ, Jesus is guiding and directing my life, He has called me to obey Him and in love I do, the more I walk with Him the more I see how competent He is, so, ...after all these years why would I even want to jump ship, it's the farthest thing from my mind, what actually occupies my mind is I'm walking with my Lord towards the Heavenly New Jerusalem, I'm sure of my salvation because I know Who I have intrusted it with, ...I'm OSAS and that is what I teach others, all this others stuff is just someone's vain imagination an interpretation of Scripture taken out of context.

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

[/QUOTE]Freegrace says - Believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.= saved with no change from original salvation
True or False?[/QUOTE]

Of course true. Now, I've answered your question multiple times. One who has believed WILL BE saved, per Acts 16:31. Do you disagree with Paul's answer to the jailer? He used the aorist tense for "believe".

So you are teaching that those who believe for a while, in Jesus's teaching, are in fact saved even though the did not continue to believe, and departed in the time of temptation.


Freegrace says:

believe = saved

Believe for a while then depart = saved


The Gospel according to Freegrace: believe for a while then depart and you will be saved.

The Gospel according to Paul: Believe on the Lord and you will be saved.


Paul's warning:

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Hebrews 3:12-14

Paul says we need to continue to the end, if we want to be a partaker of Christ.

Jesus says those who endure to the end will be saved. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13


Sorry Freegrace, you are teaching another Gospel that Jesus nor Paul taught.


Paul warned us of such things -

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron.1 Timothy 4:1-2


To think a Christian can live an unrighteous life and depart from the faith, and still be saved is the epitome of Hypocrisy.


Jesus taught where the hypocrites will end up.

Jesus spoke these words to His servants -

48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Freegrace said -

Freegrace says - Believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.= saved with no change from original salvation
True or False?



So you are teaching that those who believe for a while, in Jesus's teaching, are in fact saved even though the did not continue to believe, and departed in the time of temptation.


Freegrace says:

believe = saved

Believe for a while then depart = saved


The Gospel according to Freegrace: believe for a while then depart and you will be saved.

The Gospel according to Paul: Believe on the Lord and you will be saved.


Paul's warning:

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Hebrews 3:12-14

Paul says we need to continue to the end, if we want to be a partaker of Christ.

Jesus says those who endure to the end will be saved. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13


Sorry Freegrace, you are teaching another Gospel that Jesus nor Paul taught.


Paul warned us of such things -

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron.1 Timothy 4:1-2


To think a Christian can live an unrighteous life and depart from the faith, and still be saved is the epitome of Hypocrisy.


Jesus taught where the hypocrites will end up.

Jesus spoke these words to His servants -

48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



JLB

Are you sinless JLB? Every time you sin, you are departing from Christ and the truth and are a hypocrite. You just have it figured out that you don't do it "enough" to lose your salvation? Do you even believe you will make it? Or are you on the fence about going to heaven?