OSAS The Truth

[Rollo Tamasi]

How do you know if a believer is saved or not?

I think the Bible is quite clear about that.
Nobody knew about Judas except Jesus.
God knows a man's heart.

 

[smaller]

If you are referring to the incident "woman caught in adultery" then what was the conclusion. Jesus told the woman SIN NO MORE.

What makes you think Jesus was only speaking to the woman?

So your argument of people suffering from the sin of hypocrisy is bit weak.

What does the woman incident have to do with religious hypocrisy? Every man who picked up a stone to stone her was painted with hypocrisy, being sinners themselves.

The matter is OSAS guys are self hypocritic because they give an excuse that every one is a sinner and my sin will not stop me in going into heaven and that approach is bit dangerous, don't you???

The extension of salvation by either camp will not and can not extend to the tempter and his minions who are and remain as the source of all sin. Those parties never had salvation and never will. No ones theology blanket is able to cover them with Grace, forgiveness, legality or salvation. But it is a very common problem in theology to try and do so, particularly by overlooking them.

Yeah when a strong church is not built then the unbelievers surely will point fingers at believers and especially like the OSAS doctrine which weakens the church.

The non-OSAS camps are no better. They as sinners fight against sin, yet remain sinners. So do the OSAS camp people.

The non-OSAS camps believe that their actions of supposedly non sinning or being non-sinners actually exist. I don't think the OSAS camp is quite that ignorant.

A believer does need licence to sin.

The believers factual status as sinners didn't move one iota in either camp.

They may all sin LESS, we hope, but none are sinLESS.

One who has tasted the love of Christ surely knows there is terrible damnation on the other side and they have the sin in between.

Tasting the love of Christ didn't make anyone sinless. It does make for a whole bunch of good actors though, that much is certain.

A man cannot come out of his sins because of his weakness and every one of us do sin

Bravo for fact finding.

but we do love God and we know that what we do is not right with God and in case of habitual sin

There is no continuing in sin or habitual sin when not a man of us stopped being a sinner or became sinless.

when the Holy Spirit convicts us we come out of it

You hopefully see your logical dilemma unfolding before your eyes by now. No, the Holy Spirit made ZERO believers sinless. We are all certainly less prone to OPEN slaveship. But that does not mean that hypocrisy rose to being a better status of sinner either.

A man who is supposedly sinless on the outside where other people can judge them can still make a really fine hypocrite can't they?

but when the OSAS doctrine is injected into a man's heart then the conviction is bypassed because he is guaranteed of his eternal life irrespective of his spiritual condition.

Whether a man is convicted or not no such man became sinless. That's the general point of observations.

So the basis of 'sinning less' to have salvation is a rather moot point since there will be no sinless believers standing before the Throne of Grace.

 

[smaller]

If you are referring to the incident "woman caught in adultery" then what was the conclusion. Jesus told the woman SIN NO MORE.

What makes you think Jesus was only speaking to the woman?

So your argument of people suffering from the sin of hypocrisy is bit weak.

What does the woman incident have to do with religious hypocrisy? Every man who picked up a stone to stone her was painted with hypocrisy, being sinners themselves.

The matter is OSAS guys are self hypocritic because they give an excuse that every one is a sinner and my sin will not stop me in going into heaven and that approach is bit dangerous, don't you???

The extension of salvation by either camp will not and can not extend to the tempter and his minions who are and remain as the source of all sin. Those parties never had salvation and never will. No ones theology blanket is able to cover them with Grace, forgiveness, legality or salvation. But it is a very common problem in theology to try and do so, particularly by overlooking them.

Yeah when a strong church is not built then the unbelievers surely will point fingers at believers and especially like the OSAS doctrine which weakens the church.

The non-OSAS camps are no better. They as sinners fight against sin, yet remain sinners. So do the OSAS camp people.

The non-OSAS camps believe that their actions of supposedly non sinning or being non-sinners actually exist. I don't think the OSAS camp is quite that ignorant.

A believer does need licence to sin.

The believers factual status as sinners didn't move one iota in either camp.

They may all sin LESS, we hope, but none are sinLESS.

One who has tasted the love of Christ surely knows there is terrible damnation on the other side and they have the sin in between.

Tasting the love of Christ didn't make anyone sinless. It does make for a whole bunch of good actors though, that much is certain.

A man cannot come out of his sins because of his weakness and every one of us do sin

Bravo for truthful fact finding.

but we do love God and we know that what we do is not right with God and in case of habitual sin

There is no continuing in sin or habitual sin when not a man of us stopped being a sinner or became sinless.

when the Holy Spirit convicts us we come out of it

You hopefully see your logical dilemma unfolding before your eyes by now. No, the Holy Spirit made ZERO believers sinless. We are all certainly less prone to OPEN slaveship. But that does not mean that hypocrisy rose to being a better status of sinner either.

A man who is supposedly sinless on the outside where other people can judge them can still make a really fine hypocrite can't they?

but when the OSAS doctrine is injected into a man's heart then the conviction is bypassed because he is guaranteed of his eternal life irrespective of his spiritual condition.

Whether a man is convicted or not no such man became sinless. That's the general point of observations.

So the basis of 'sinning less' to have salvation is a rather moot point since there will be no sinless believers standing before the Throne of Grace.

One is not saved because they SIN LESS. And there are no sinless believers.

 

[Gary]

"Having ones name in the Book of Life means that individual is saved" We have to be careful when we label a person as "saved". The person has made a profession. Gary, in reality the proof of biblical Christianity will not be disclosed until the judgment, in reality! Now, we see ourselves as saved because we have professed or confessed what we think is necessary for Salvation. Only God knows whether a person is genuine or not.

So, lets say that having ones name in the Book of Life simply means that this person has believed on the Son of God for his Salvation. His name will either stay there or be blotted out which depends on how he lives his "narrow road" life style. If this person obeys Jesus' Commands all his life, he will have eternal life.

The bible states that anyone not found in the Book of Life is condemned to the Lake of Fire. So it only stands to reason that if someone's name is in the Book of Life, they are in fact saved. They are not condemned to an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Agree or disagree?
.

 

[Chopper]

Put the cooky jar down low so the kids can get the cookies.

 

[Gary]

Put the cooky jar down low so the kids can get the cookies.

Too many sweets leaves no room for meat.
.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

"Having ones name in the Book of Life means that individual is saved" We have to be careful when we label a person as "saved". The person has made a profession. Gary, in reality the proof of biblical Christianity will not be disclosed until the judgment, in reality! Now, we see ourselves as saved because we have professed or confessed what we think is necessary for Salvation. Only God knows whether a person is genuine or not.

So, lets say that having ones name in the Book of Life simply means that this person has believed on the Son of God for his Salvation. His name will either stay there or be blotted out which depends on how he lives his "narrow road" life style. If this person obeys Jesus' Commands all his life, he will have eternal life.

What you're saying here Chopper is that we have to earn our salvation.
It cannot be read any other way.

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes HE IS FAITHFUL, but WE can fail, we can walk away.

Do you see this has nothing to do with God? It is US who walk away....it is US failing, US forsaking....

It's not really about God, it's our choice.

There in lies your problem....."Its not really about God." Its all about the creature. And if you stick around long enough on eternal security, you will see that the loss of salvation camp will not dwell on what Christ did for the believer and the power/promise/gift/grace/mercy of Christ. But what the creature does for the creator.

God didn't save you, your freewill did.

God can't keep you saved, your freewill has to.

In the end it really isn't about God and His power/promise/gift/Grace/mercy to keep you saved.

He is relegated to a finite being that has the character, nature and faithfulness of a gnat.

 

[Jesse]

There in lies your problem....."Its not really about God." Its all about the creature. And if you stick around long enough on eternal security, you will see that the loss of salvation camp will not dwell on what Christ did for the believer and the power/promise/gift/grace/mercy of Christ. But what the creature does for the creator.

God didn't save you, your freewill did.

God can't keep you saved, your freewill has to.

In the end it really isn't about God and His power/promise/gift/Grace/mercy to keep you saved.

He is relegated to a finite being that has the character, nature and faithfulness of a gnat.

That's not what my post said, you are adding words to my post.

God can be nothing but faithful, we can be either faithful or faithless, God does not force Himself onto us.

You believe God took your free will away......and you no longer have a choice. People do and will walk away.

It amazes me at how many verses OSAS have to close their eyes to when they read the Bible, even so they are unaware a Great Apostasy is coming!

 

[MarkT]

There is no evidence that he ever did. And Jesus clearly indicated that he was not "clean", meaning saved in Jn 13.

Well, he was a follower. That implies belief. And the crowd that followed Jesus believed for a while and then they fell away. OSAS seems to say the obvious - God won't let us fall. That's true. And it implies we need his help. Indeed God must shorten the days of tribulation or no human being will be saved. Mt. 24:22

 

[MarkT]

Following is not earning. Jesus gave us commandments to follow.

Jesus said, 'If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love'. John 15:10

John said, 'All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us'. 1 John 3:24

 

[gr8grace3]

God can be nothing but faithful, we can be either faithful or faithless, God does not force Himself onto us.

God can be nothing but faithful. So He is faithful when we are faithless. He can't be unfaithful. You have to see the problem here? You say," God can be nothing but faithful." then try to say that He is not faithful if we are unfaithful.

You believe God took your free will away......and you no longer have a choice. People do and will walk away.

I do not believe God took my freewill away. I Just believe that God saved me, and my freewill is not strong enough to thwart His gift,promise,grace and mercy. People do and will walk away.

It amazes me at how many verses OSAS have to close their eyes to when they read the Bible, even so they are unaware a Great Apostasy is coming!

Understand John 10:28; John 5:24 and many more eternal security verses and your eyes will be opened to the true meaning of the verses you think we close our eyes to. All of them have been discussed and went over in great detail in the past few years on this forum. None will be presented that will shock eternal security advocates.

I believe we are in the first birthing stages of that apostasy. Just look at how many believers do not believe in eternal security and the GIFT/PROMISE of salvation.

 

[JLB]

I asked you to take my response to your post like you asked me to do with yours, but this is what you posted instead:

My post was extremely clear. Why are you continuing to ask what I've already answered??

The term "fall away" refers to believing, but you have morphed that into falling away from being saved.

And such a view directly contradicts Rom 11:29, which says that God's gifts (imputed righteousness-5:15,17 and eternal life-6:23) and calling are IRREVOCABLE. It appears you don't believe what Paul said about God's gifts and calling. For you, they can be revoked.

Why do you believe what is contrary to truth?

Remember you agreed to walk through this step by step.

Please just answer the question.

Great. So we agree that believe = Saved.

So in the next verse where Jesus says -

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


... who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.



JLB says - Believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.= saved for a while but departed from the element that saved [faith]. The person no longer has faith...


Freegrace says - Believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.= saved with no change from original salvation


True or False?


JLB

 

[MarkT]

That's not what my post said, you are adding words to my post.

God can be nothing but faithful, we can be either faithful or faithless, God does not force Himself onto us.

You believe God took your free will away......and you no longer have a choice. People do and will walk away.

It amazes me at how many verses OSAS have to close their eyes to when they read the Bible, even so they are unaware a Great Apostasy is coming!

God has made a kingdom for his Son. If God makes you believe, it is his will not yours. The only thing you have to do is keep his commandments.

 

[Malachi]

I think the Bible is quite clear about that.
Nobody knew about Judas except Jesus.
God knows a man's heart.

Regarding whether anyone knows if another is saved, the Lord said that "By their fruits ye shall know them" (Mt 7:20), and Paul speaks of "the fruits of righteousness" (2 Cor 9:10; Phil 1:11). There is generally external evidence for internal reality, so while God knows men's hearts, men see the fruits of righteousness as external evidence.

As to Judas, before the crucifixion, Christ knew his heart, Satan entered into him, and the Lord called him "the son of perdition"(eternal damnation) (Jn 17:12). After the resurrection, the apostles recognized him as the one who "went to his own place" (eternal damnation) (Acts 1:25).

 

[Chopper]

The bible states that anyone not found in the Book of Life is condemned to the Lake of Fire. So it only stands to reason that if someone's name is in the Book of Life, they are in fact saved. They are not condemned to an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Agree or disagree?
.

Agree.

 

[FreeGrace]

If we were free to choose Christ, why is it we are not free to walk away? Did our free will disappear the moment we believed?

People confuse walking away from God as leaving salvation. God has made promises to man. For example, God's gifts and calling are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). What are God's gifts? Imputed righteousness-Rom 5:15,17, and eternal life-Rom 6:23. We know who the called are; those who have believed-1:5,6,7, 8:28,30. These are irrevocable.

Men like darkness more than light and there WILL be people who fall away and not return, Jesus speaks of the Great Apostasy, and how this has to happen. People will fall away (and it's not those who were not really believers). You can not fall away from something if you don't belong. In the end men's hearts will grow cold, some will no longer love the Lord.

This is quite true, and very sad. But this doesn't mean loss of salvation. Rom 11:29.

It's not about habitual sin, it's about our hearts growing cold and not loving the Lord any longer. There are people who will fall into habitual sin, however, but I think that lifestyle will cause them to turn away from God.

What verse says that God will save as long as one loves Him? There aren't any.

 

[Chopper]

People confuse walking away from God as leaving salvation. God has made promises to man. For example, God's gifts and calling are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). What are God's gifts? Imputed righteousness-Rom 5:15,17, and eternal life-Rom 6:23. We know who the called are; those who have believed-1:5,6,7, 8:28,30. These are irrevocable.


This is quite true, and very sad. But this doesn't mean loss of salvation. Rom 11:29.


What verse says that God will save as long as one loves Him? There aren't any.

Jesus says "if you love Me keep my commands."

 

[FreeGrace]

Already delineated. OSAS will justify zero believers sin actions OR the source of same. That is where OSAS fails.

You've missed the point again. Nothing "justifies" sin. So your claim about OSAS failing is false. Neither view justifies sin.

Paul was saved. The messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh was assuredly not. Did Paul toss a doctrinal blanket called OSAS over the entirety of himself? Never!

Paul was as sure of his salvation as anyone can be. He wrote Rom 11:29, about God's gifts (imputed righteousness-5:15,17 and eternal life-6:23) and calling are irrevocable.

OSAS obviously then does not apply to the evil present with any of us and CAN NOT.

Who says it was supposed to? Please substantiate your perspective here. Neither does non-OSAS. So what's your point?

There is a source to look at for this matter and OSAS does NOT extend to that source and that source is INTERNAL.

So OSAS believers may think their security doctrinal blanket is on the entirety of their persons. It assuredly is not.

OK, here is, I think, the source of your error. I have not met ANY OSAS believers who believed that OSAS "is on the entirety of their persons". That is simply and flatly untrue. We base our eternal security on the Person of Jesus Christ, who does all the saving and all the keeping. Please re-set your view of OSAS.

I don't think either position addresses the problem accurately as Paul did. And you are also correct in that neither position is meant to justify the evil that we all factually have.

So quit bringing it up. It's a false issue. Sin is NOT justified, period.

Therefore the issue with both camps resides there, on the subject of how to address said evil that we ALL still have.

What do you mean "how to address evil"? We are to shun it, put to death the flesh, etc. Avoid it.

I think non-OSAS is extremely faulty. OSAS not as much. But both positions seek to cover up their personal evil problems with false theological constructs that really aren't required at all.

I've never seen either camp try to "cover up" anything. I have no idea how or where you're getting your ideas.

If evil was present with Paul it is present with all of us. That much is certain. No evil can be justified under Grace. No evil present can be legal either. And even though a believer can be or more accurately IS forgiven, that did not make the fact of EVIL'S presence go away, even on a temporary basis. This is where the non-OSAS camp fails entirely, thinking their 'right actions' or 'right thinking' of whatever sort is what keeps them in good eternal standings. That was never the case to begin with.

Still not following you at all. The so-called "issue" of what justifies evil is silly.

And even you would not seem foolish enough to justify the evil within any person and YES we all have this issue. So let's not get that justification blanket stretched out where it doesn't belong.

OK, let's consider this "justification blanket" that you mention. Who does the justifying? God. On what basis? Faith in Christ. What you trying to get at?

And please note: no one is trying to justify evil. What a silly concept.

 

[Gary]

Agree.

So then, how does one reconcile OSAS with that fact?
.