OSAS The Truth

[Doulos Iesou]

In following your line of thinking, then to be saved is to love God?

In my Bible Jesus says if you love me obey my commandments, Lot broke all Ten of the Commands (before they were given), so according to your thinking his actions showed he didn't love God, ...bet yet he is declared righteous by Peter?

What ten commandments? Didn't know Sinai had happened.

 

[JLB]

Well, in typical style, you've again ignored Rom 11:29.


Because Jesus died for ALL sins, sin is no longer an issue. Unless one denies the fact that Jesus died for ALL sins.

I asked for verses that teach that a born again child of God can become an UNborn UNchild of God, which is the logical conclusion of the non OSAS view. Where are they?

Here are the verses that refute the non OSAS view:

1 Jn 5:11 - And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. NASB

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NASB

So, God gives eternal life, and it is a gift.

Romans 11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

This cannot be any more clear. God gives the free gift of eternal life to those who believe, and this gift is irrevocable.

The non OSAS view is that God revokes the gift of eternal life. The non OSAS view is in direct conflict with Scripture.

People who no longer believe are called unbelievers.

This can not be more clear!

Unbelievers have no forgiveness of sin, since they no longer believe.


Eternal life, forgiveness... is based on believing.

Unbelievers can not receive what they don't believe.


A person who believes for a while then no longer believes is called an unbeliever.


A person who confesses Jesus as Lord, then later renounces Jesus as Lord and confesses Allah as their Lord, no longer believes that Jesus is Lord.

That person must now look to Allah for their salvation.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

This doesn't answer the problem your view creates. You've asked the question: "Who will forgive them of their sins if they no longer believe in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross?" Forgiveness for all sins occurs at the moment one believes, because Jesus died for all sins.

Let's discuss your scripture you have for this statement.


8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

 

[smaller]

I have no idea what your point is here. Could you please rephrase.

What is this supposed to mean, relative to Rom 11:29? Please rephrase.

Examples of what, exactly? And if there were, please cite post #s.

Sorry, we went past the point of profitable exchange a few posts back.

Scriptural facts brought forth about Paul and the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh as it relates to theological observations does bring some difficulties to the conversations, particularly so when the fact of that other party can not be seen in the discussions.

For many people the information really can't be seen. It's a real spiritual phenomena.

 

[smaller]

Well, I think Paul is referring to the parable of the potter in Jeremiah 18. It seems to fit seeing in Romans 9 he is arguing that God as the potter can .....
YLT
Rom 9:22 And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call--us--
Rom 9:24 not only out of Jews, but also out of nations,

We all have a vessel of dishonor in our respective lumps to reckon with.

The Tempter is that internal bad actor vessel in every lump. All of us were turned from his power upon salvation, but we all still contend with same after. Which is pretty easy to recognize amongst the flocks by observations.

So as it relates to this topic matter, yeah, believers are OSAS, but in this present life that is not the only vessel that God actively deals with on a daily basis. It's quite fascinating, once seen. And a bit challenging on many levels.

 

[Chopper]

Well, please edumacate me, then.

I'd like for you to understand a few facts about me that might help you see where I'm coming from....First, I'm just an old country preacher. It is obvious to me that you are much more educated than me of which you have made me aware of. I rely, not on academia for my knowledge, but on the wisdom of God imparted to me by His Spirit because of my constant prayer for such.

In other words, you and I don't mesh. The way you question me, is not really a question, it is more of a critique of which I really don't appreciate. I actually don't learn anything from your comments like I do from others. Therefore I'm going to ignore you and your posts....My advise to you is for you to take Pro 16:18 "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall" to heart.

 

[Karl]

What ten commandments? Didn't know Sinai had happened.

Did you notice I included in my post "before they were given," that was a reference to Sinai, ...Paul tells us the Law is spiritual, they have existed in/with God, because He is a Spirit and all things spiritual come from Him, before the foundation of the world, ...they were written down for man to see, in the course of his history, at Sinai.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I believe I asked you for Scripture to back up your claim that salvation is based on our love for God. Do you have any?

John 14:15-17 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth.

 

[gr8grace3]

I'd like for you to understand a few facts about me that might help you see where I'm coming from....First, I'm just an old country preacher. It is obvious to me that you are much more educated than me of which you have made me aware of. I rely, not on academia for my knowledge, but on the wisdom of God imparted to me by His Spirit because of my constant prayer for such.

There is a charismatic definition for this:
Revelation Knowledge: Direct non-mental reception of Scriptural truths. Given by the Holy Spirit to the human spirit. Revelation does not come by study, it is spontaneous, (like a light bulb coming on over a cartoon characters head). These revelations do not have to conform to any previous sound doctrines held by the Church. They are seldom questioned depending on who received them. If Kenny Copeland says he got it by revelation of the Spirit, then by-Jimmy, that settles that!

In other words, you and I don't mesh. The way you question me, is not really a question, it is more of a critique of which I really don't appreciate. I actually don't learn anything from your comments like I do from others. Therefore I'm going to ignore you and your posts....My advise to you is for you to take Pro 16:18 "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall" to heart.

Transference arrogance. Disguised by a false humility.

2 Tim 4:3~~New American Standard Bible
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

 

[FreeGrace]

People who no longer believe are called unbelievers.

This can not be more clear!

As I said, you're free to call them whatever you desire. Doesn't matter.

Here is what's crystal clear: God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE (Rom 11:29). And eternal life is given by God (1 Jn 5:11), and is called a gift by Paul in Rom 6:23.

Unbelievers have no forgiveness of sin, since they no longer believe.

So God removes the forgiveness He gave when they had believed? Nonsense. His gifts are IRREVOCABLE.

Eternal life, forgiveness... is based on believing.

It's given the moment one believes. And the GIFT is IRREVOCABLE.

Unbelievers can not receive what they don't believe.

But if they had previously believed, they were GIVEN the GIFT, which is IRREVOCABLE.

Your view has been thoroughly been refuted by Truth. But you are free to reject that truth. Although, not advisable.

The non OSAS doesn't have a leg to stand on.

 

[FreeGrace]

Let's discuss your scripture you have for this statement.


8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

I didn't bring up 1 Jn 1.

So let's discuss the Scripture that I did bring up.

1 Jn 5:11 says that God gives eternal life.

Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift.

Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE.

Are you having difficulty with the word "irrevocable"? Or what?

 

[FreeGrace]

Sorry, we went past the point of profitable exchange a few posts back.

Scriptural facts brought forth about Paul and the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh as it relates to theological observations does bring some difficulties to the conversations, particularly so when the fact of that other party can not be seen in the discussions.

For many people the information really can't be seen. It's a real spiritual phenomena.

Not sure we ever reaches a point of profitable exchange, since I've yet to understand what point you've been trying to make.

 

[smaller]

Not sure we ever reaches a point of profitable exchange, since I've yet to understand what point you've been trying to make.

And that is kinda why it's pointless to try to observe some of the finer points brought out.

I am firmly OSAS and you appear to be so as well, so on that count we'll just have to agree. I tried to observe the insufficiency of OSAS, and not to the detriment of believers. But the position itself is definitely FAULTY in it's views as delineated, even though I hold to the general premise of same as an overall sight of the believers fate.

As a similar example, I admire Calvins Tulip constructs, even though I recognize the fault lines that make it theologically unsustainable.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'd like for you to understand a few facts about me that might help you see where I'm coming from....First, I'm just an old country preacher. It is obvious to me that you are much more educated than me of which you have made me aware of. I rely, not on academia for my knowledge, but on the wisdom of God imparted to me by His Spirit because of my constant prayer for such.

My knowledge is based entirely on what I read in the Bible. I don't quote commentaries, etc. I quote clear Scripture.

In other words, you and I don't mesh.

Sorry you feel that way.

The way you question me, is not really a question, it is more of a critique of which I really don't appreciate.

Again, sorry you feel that way. My questions are direct. They are not a critique, though you have taken them that way. Is it possible that my questions are difficult for you to answer, and you've taken that as though I somehow know that and am pointing that out? Because my questions are designed to give me more information about another poster.

I actually don't learn anything from your comments like I do from others.

Again, sorry you feel that way. So my frequent quoting of 1 Jn 5:11, Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29 don't teach anything???

[QUTOE] Therefore I'm going to ignore you and your posts....My advise to you is for you to take Pro 16:18 "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall" to heart.[/QUOTE]
Again, sorry you feel that way. And it's sad that you've judged me in the way that you have. I've provided clear Scripture to the nonOSASers and they have just ignored it.

The fact is irrefutable: God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable. If you take that as a criticism of your differing view, ok.

 

[FreeGrace]

John 14:15-17 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth.

Jesus was talking to those already saved. You haven't provided any verse that says that salvation is based on love.

It is based on faith in Christ. Here's some solid evidence for that:

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.


Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

 

[FreeGrace]

And that is kinda why it's pointless to try to observe some of the finer points brought out.

I am firmly OSAS and you appear to be so as well, so on that count we'll just have to agree. I tried to observe the insufficiency of OSAS, and not to the detriment of believers.

Why do you hold firmly to a doctrine that you call 'insufficient' and which is a "detriment of believers"??

But the position itself is definitely FAULTY in it's views as delineated, even though I hold to the general premise of same as an overall sight of the believers fate.

This doesn't make sense to me. If it's faulty, it cannot be correct. If the Bible teaches it, it is NOT faulty.

As a similar example, I admire Calvins Tulip constructs, even though I recognize the fault lines that make it theologically unsustainable.

It's internally logical, sure. But it cannot be supported by Scripture.

 

[gr8grace3]

As I said, you're free to call them whatever you desire. Doesn't matter.

Here is what's crystal clear: God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE (Rom 11:29). And eternal life is given by God (1 Jn 5:11), and is called a gift by Paul in Rom 6:23.

John 14:27~~New American Standard Bible
"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

Most people are still using "worldly" standards when it pertains to His Gifts.

 

[Chopper]

There is a charismatic definition for this:
Revelation Knowledge: Direct non-mental reception of Scriptural truths. Given by the Holy Spirit to the human spirit. Revelation does not come by study, it is spontaneous, (like a light bulb coming on over a cartoon characters head). These revelations do not have to conform to any previous sound doctrines held by the Church. They are seldom questioned depending on who received them. If Kenny Copeland says he got it by revelation of the Spirit, then by-Jimmy, that settles that!


Transference arrogance. Disguised by a false humility.

2 Tim 4:3~~New American Standard Bible
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

Could you please define who you mean by "arrogance, disguised by false humility. So that you don't mention someone's name, it it me or someone else?

 

[smaller]

Why do you hold firmly to a doctrine that you call 'insufficient' and which is a "detriment of believers"??

I specifically stated that my observations of facts were "NOT" to the detriment of believers assured eternal security.

This doesn't make sense to me. If it's faulty, it cannot be correct. If the Bible teaches it, it is NOT faulty.

The premise of OSAS as it relates to the believer is a sound premise, but it is not capable of a blanket covering of the subject matter, which seems to be elusive for you to take hold of.

It's internally logical, sure. But it cannot be supported by Scripture.

Calvin's TULIP brought out some neglected areas that were left unattended by prior theologians and are the groundwork from whence OSAS sprang. Therefore I admire his work, still knowing it was faulty, but also knowing that the arenas he delved into deserved delving into to the detriment of early orthodoxy understandings.

Theology is meant to be moved forward to the end.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Jesus was talking to those already saved. You haven't provided any verse that says that salvation is based on love.

It is based on faith in Christ. Here's some solid evidence for that:

John 14:15-17 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth


Jesus is talking about the moment a person is saved. The Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit given to the person in that moment the person believes, and the person believes because he/she LOVES Jesus.

I know this because I am telling my salvation story to you. There is NOTHING in the world to me that showed me what love is.............more than the person of Jesus.


Now, does this have anything to do with the subject of the thread here? Maybe. Because I am SAVED and know what scripture tells me.