OSAS The Truth

[Chopper]

And that is kinda why it's pointless to try to observe some of the finer points brought out.

I am firmly OSAS and you appear to be so as well, so on that count we'll just have to agree. I tried to observe the insufficiency of OSAS, and not to the detriment of believers. But the position itself is definitely FAULTY in it's views as delineated, even though I hold to the general premise of same as an overall sight of the believers fate.

As a similar example, I admire Calvins Tulip constructs, even though I recognize the fault lines that make it theologically unsustainable.

I am OSAS!! Calvin was a brilliant man of God. If you have ever studied his "Institutes of the Christian Religion" as I have, you would not make such statements putting yourself above this man of whom God used mightily aiding the great reformation. Actually I stand in awe of the mind of this man who gave a great revelation and instruction on the "elect" of God and the reasons for OSAS.

 

[Chopper]

John 14:15-17 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth


Jesus is talking about the moment a person is saved. The Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit given to the person in that moment the person believes, and the person believes because he/she LOVES Jesus.

I know this because I am telling my salvation story to you. There is NOTHING in the world to me that showed me what love is.............more than the person of Jesus.


Now, does this have anything to do with the subject of the thread here? Maybe. Because I am SAVED and know what scripture tells me.

Very good....

 

[smaller]

Jesus is talking about the moment a person is saved. The Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit given to the person in that moment the person believes, and the person believes because he/she LOVES Jesus.

I know this because I am telling my salvation story to you. There is NOTHING in the world to me that showed me what love is.............more than the person of Jesus.

I'll have to ditto that matter also as a 'real personal experience.' Though some do not come to faith in that same way. For me it was a tangible experience of Gods Love in Jesus Christ, literally within me. There really is no way to transfer that to another because we didn't give it to ourselves to begin with. It has to come from God in Christ. That doesn't mean however that those who do not 'feel' Gods Love in Christ in the same way are not of faith, haven't tried or are not saved for lack of this type of experience. For me it is impossible NOT to believe after the experience. When you 'meet' God in Christ in this way you are simply not the same person you were before. All forms of theology are relatively unimportant in the order of priorities compared to what we actually experience in our walks of faith. They are just frameworks we use to try to find understandings and knowledge of WHOM we are engaging.

Now, does this have anything to do with the subject of the thread here? Maybe. Because I am SAVED and know what scripture tells me.

I would hope that you know after experiencing Gods Love in Christ, that He will never leave you, abandon you or forsake you, regardless of the nay saying opponents if such a belief in and by faith does not fit the framework of any theological constructs. And yes, we do try to keep ourselves in the LOVE of God in Christ, and not to depart from same based on someone else trying to say or prove otherwise, as if that is even possible.

God in Christ has never stopped being within me, even though I have departed many false branches of those who claim to also be His. And no, I don't hold the views of others against them either. If they want to believe they can walk away, maybe they never arrived at the place to walk away from to begin with? I don't think it's possible myself because the encounter is forever imprinted within.

 

[smaller]

I am OSAS!! Calvin was a brilliant man of God. If you have ever studied his "Institutes of the Christian Religion" as I have, you would not make such statements putting yourself above this man of whom God used mightily aiding the great reformation. Actually I stand in awe of the mind of this man who gave a great revelation and instruction on the "elect" of God and the reasons for OSAS.

I could delineate many of the faults of Calvins construct.

Calvin logically was not OSAS and his own writings state as much as no one really knows until the end and they pass from here and are DEEMED as such by The Divine Sovereign. That is one of the logic faults of some Divine Sovereign camps. It is one thing to encounter the studies of Divine Sovereignty. It is quite another to hold ones self out as the definer of same. Do you understand this problem of logic?

 

[Gregg]

Salvation is wrought by believing.

Salvation was wrought on the cross when Christ was smitten by God, afflicted, wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities, chastised for our peace, wounded that we ourselves might be healed; when He was oppressed and sheared, cut off out of the land of the living, when the stroke was to Him, when the LORD was pleased to crushed Him and to make Him suffer.

- - -

"and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us, the believing ones, according to the working of His mighty strength which He worked in Christ in raising Him from the dead; yea, He seated Him at His right hand in the heavenlies," (Eph 1:19-20).

We are believing ones according to the working of God; as Paul goes on to say that we are saved by God's grace through faith, a gift which must be received; Christ Himself which must be received.

The non-OSAS doctrine makes believing a work of man - how contrary to the Spirit of Grace, and to God's Gift, and the price Christ paid.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

No doubt!

Those who believe for a while, and then depart, have become unbelievers.

An unbeliever can not become an unbeliever. However, a believer that has been born from above will always remain a believer because He has been born from above, a work of God in Christ Jesus His Son.

If someone stops believing that Jesus is the Messiah, the Lamb of God that takes away sins, then how will there sins that they commit be forgiven, seeing they no longer believe.

Believing that Jesus is the Messiah does not guarantee salvation. Many Pharisees knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus was the LORD's Christ.

Who will forgive them of their sins if they no longer believe in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross?

If only non-believers might ask this question. So, let's tell them how their sins can be forgiven!

But I guarantee this, that when you witness to a non-believer . . . you yourself would never think to tell them that their salvation can be lost by them at some point in the future. You have said as much in another post.

 

[gr8grace3]

I am OSAS!! Calvin was a brilliant man of God. If you have ever studied his "Institutes of the Christian Religion" as I have, you would not make such statements putting yourself above this man of whom God used mightily aiding the great reformation. Actually I stand in awe of the mind of this man who gave a great revelation and instruction on the "elect" of God and the reasons for OSAS.

I thought you said that there are 2 kinds of believers. The elect and then some kind of "non-elect" believers that may choose to believe and that these 2nd "type" of believers can lose their salvation. Have you changed that position? And if not, you consider yourself the "elect" kind of believer that can't lose salvation.

Calvin did not believe in eternal security or OSAS. He held to perseverance of the saints. Perseverance of the saints is a works based salvation.....If you didn't persevere, you really weren't saved. Its the same thing as.....If you don't persevere, you will lose your salvation.

 

[Gregg]

Yer preachin to the choir in the above, but none of that addresses the matters I've referenced from scripture in my prior posts.

I though you were in the non-OSAS camp. What 'credible explanation' are you asking for, or have never heard?

 

[Gary]

I'd like for you to understand a few facts about me that might help you see where I'm coming from....First, I'm just an old country preacher. It is obvious to me that you are much more educated than me of which you have made me aware of. I rely, not on academia for my knowledge, but on the wisdom of God imparted to me by His Spirit because of my constant prayer for such.

In other words, you and I don't mesh. The way you question me, is not really a question, it is more of a critique of which I really don't appreciate. I actually don't learn anything from your comments like I do from others. Therefore I'm going to ignore you and your posts....My advise to you is for you to take Pro 16:18 "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall" to heart.

......................

 

[smaller]

I though you were in the non-OSAS camp. What 'credible explanation' are you asking for, or have never heard?

I've never denied the assured security to eternal salvation of believers. And I don't consider it a wait and see matter either, as the 'endure to the end' slant.

Assured salvation is a here and now matter. We are meant to know that we are assured deployed by many present tense terms in the scriptures themselves.

What I am also saying however is that the position of OSAS is insufficient to handle the subject matter, as previously delineated in brief in my posts in this thread. It's a bit more complicated than the one sided slant that OSAS camps try to employ, and therefore OSAS is fine as a concept for handling parts of the subject matter, but certainly insufficient for credible engagements as a blanket statement.

 

[smaller]

Calvin did not believe in eternal security or OSAS. He held to perseverance of the saints. Perseverance of the saints is a works based salvation.....If you didn't persevere, you really weren't saved. Its the same thing as.....If you don't persevere, you will lose your salvation.

Ah, somebody else gets it!

 

[LovethroughDove]

All forms of theology are relatively unimportant in the order of priorities compared to what we actually experience in our walks of faith. They are just frameworks we use to try to find understandings and knowledge of WHOM we are engaging.



I would hope that you know after experiencing Gods Love in Christ, that He will never leave you, abandon you or forsake you, regardless of the nay saying opponents if such a belief

I agree that most theological disagreements are not important.....including this one. The only theological debate that matters in eternal salvation is the "person of Jesus".

.

I don't think it's possible myself because the encounter is forever imprinted within.

I would have to agree personally with this, but I just wouldn't label it as true for everyone. Lots of scripture tests and test a person's heart if they are in line with the gospel.

But, I really do think this is one of those theological debates that doesn't have to go anywhere. Some people do better with knowing they are sealed forever and some do better with a possible salvation loss if they let's say.........cheat or murder.

 

[gr8grace3]

But I guarantee this, that when you witness to a non-believer . . . you yourself would never think to tell them that their salvation can be lost by them at some point in the future. You have said as much in another post.

What a witness that would be huh?

Let me tell you the Good News of Christ.

1.You may perish. John 10:28~~and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

2.You may be snatched out of His Hand. John 10:28~~and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

3.You may come under His Wrath. 1 Thess. 5:9~~For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

4. You may face Judgement. John 5:24~~"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

5. You may be condemned. Romans 8:1 NASB~~Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

6. You may not get eternal life. John 3:15~~so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

So you need to decide, there is a small chance that your life as a believer in Christ would be better than what you have as an unbeliever.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What a witness that would be huh?

Let me tell you the Good News of Christ.

1.You may perish. John 10:28~~and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

2.You may be snatched out of His Hand. John 10:28~~and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

3.You may come under His Wrath. 1 Thess. 5:9~~For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

4. You may face Judgement. John 5:24~~"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

5. You may be condemned. Romans 8:1 NASB~~Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

6. You may not get eternal life. John 3:15~~so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

So you need to decide, there is a small chance that your life as a believer in Christ would be better than what you have as an unbeliever.

Well said.

 

[smaller]

I would have to agree personally with this, but I just wouldn't label it as true for everyone. Lots of scripture tests and test a person's heart if they are in line with the gospel.

But, I really do think this is one of those theological debates that doesn't have to go anywhere. Some people do better with knowing they are sealed forever and some do better with a possible salvation loss if they let's say.........cheat or murder.

And I'd agree with that as well. Some believers need to believe they can be lost just to keep their own internal sin wolves at bay. I know a former meth addict ex-con, now a believer (yeah, jailhouse convert,) who I think benefits from that form of thinking, and if and when Gods ready, he'll be moved past that to a more secure place. It keeps his very real demons in check for now. But that hell stick can be a very bad blunt instrument deployed upon other believers, and many abuse the blunt instrument, as many others of us have witnessed (and left them behind.)

I personally won't tolerate the teaching in my home or with my family.

 

[JLB]

Salvation was wrought on the cross when Christ was smitten by God, afflicted, wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities, chastised for our peace, wounded that we ourselves might be healed; when He was oppressed and sheared, cut off out of the land of the living, when the stroke was to Him, when the LORD was pleased to crushed Him and to make Him suffer.

- - -

"and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us, the believing ones, according to the working of His mighty strength which He worked in Christ in raising Him from the dead; yea, He seated Him at His right hand in the heavenlies," (Eph 1:19-20).

We are believing ones according to the working of God; as Paul goes on to say that we are saved by God's grace through faith, a gift which must be received; Christ Himself which must be received.

The non-OSAS doctrine makes believing a work of man - how contrary to the Spirit of Grace, and to God's Gift, and the price Christ paid.


No doubt!


An unbeliever can not become an unbeliever. However, a believer that has been born from above will always remain a believer because He has been born from above, a work of God in Christ Jesus His Son.



Believing that Jesus is the Messiah does not guarantee salvation. Many Pharisees knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus was the LORD's Christ.


If only non-believers might ask this question. So, let's tell them how their sins can be forgiven!

But I guarantee this, that when you witness to a non-believer . . . you yourself would never think to tell them that their salvation can be lost by them at some point in the future. You have said as much in another post.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


Those who believe for a while then fall away... are no longer believers.


What do you call someone who believes, then after a while stops believing?


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

And I'd agree with that as well. Some believers need to believe they can be lost just to keep their own internal sin wolves at bay. I know a former meth addict ex-con, now a believer (yeah, jailhouse convert,) who I think benefits from that form of thinking, and if and when Gods ready, he'll be moved past that to a more secure place. It keeps his very real demons in check for now. But that hell stick can be a very bad blunt instrument deployed upon other believers, and many abuse the blunt instrument, as many others of us have witnessed (and left them behind.)

I personally won't tolerate the teaching in my home or with my family.

All believers just need the truth. We may need different tactics for different folks, but never a different message for different folks. That Meth addict needs the truth of the Son and sound bible doctrine. He may need a drill sergeant for the message, but the message should be the same as the passive pastor.

The more we teach about the Son, the less we sin. And eternal security is about the Son and His immutable character and nature. His irrevocable gifts. His power to keep us. His promises. His Grace. His mercy. His Justice/righteousness. Teach this to hungry christians and we can show them the secure place they are in.....Christ. It is to their advantage, then their motivation is right and they will grow in grace and knowledge. If we teach some that they can lose their salvation, we are teaching them false doctrine and motives that are not to their advantage......fear. And most important, we take the Glory that is rightfully Christs to keep ALL believers.

 

[smaller]

All believers just need the truth. We may need different tactics for different folks, but never a different message for different folks. That Meth addict needs the truth of the Son and sound bible doctrine. He may need a drill sergeant for the message, but the message should be the same as the passive pastor.

The more we teach about the Son, the less we sin. And eternal security is about the Son and His immutable character and nature. His irrevocable gifts. His power to keep us. His promises. His Grace. His mercy. His Justice/righteousness. Teach this to hungry christians and we can show them the secure place they are in.....Christ. It is to their advantage, then their motivation is right and they will grow in grace and knowledge. If we teach some that they can lose their salvation, we are teaching them false doctrine and motives that are not to their advantage......fear. And most important, we take the Glory that is rightfully Christs to keep ALL believers.

There is a certain form of untouchable arrogance that can be bred from OSAS as well. That is partly why I say the position itself doesn't encompass the subject matter as well as it could. (and have given adequate and suitable examples in this thread that seem to be difficult to grasp.)

And I agree that some can fall away in this present life, though I do not account that to loss of salvation in the eternal sense. OSAS will write these off as never having been saved when there may well be numerous reasons they abandoned certain camps of understandings and such may not have fallen away from anything but bad theology positions.

 

[FreeGrace]

The premise of OSAS as it relates to the believer is a sound premise, but it is not capable of a blanket covering of the subject matter, which seems to be elusive for you to take hold of.

Yes, your posts have been quite elusive.

 

[FreeGrace]

I've never denied the assured security to eternal salvation of believers. And I don't consider it a wait and see matter either, as the 'endure to the end' slant.

Assured salvation is a here and now matter. We are meant to know that we are assured deployed by many present tense terms in the scriptures themselves.

What I am also saying however is that the position of OSAS is insufficient to handle the subject matter, as previously delineated in brief in my posts in this thread. It's a bit more complicated than the one sided slant that OSAS camps try to employ, and therefore OSAS is fine as a concept for handling parts of the subject matter, but certainly insufficient for credible engagements as a blanket statement.

Either one is eternally secure at the moment of faith, or not. So yes, blanket statements do fit here.

Could you please spell out what you're trying to say? I'm not sure at this point what you mean by "the subject matter". Please remove the vague comments. How is OSAS "insufficient" in any way? And be specific, not make general or vague comments.

 

[FreeGrace]

And I'd agree with that as well. Some believers need to believe they can be lost just to keep their own internal sin wolves at bay.

That's an extremely poor motivator. And false doctrine at the same time. How sad.

What's so wrong with teaching what the Bible teaches; eternal reward for obedience and discipline in time (very painful) and loss of eternal rewards? Those are true motivators.