OSAS The Truth

[JLB]

I did not say that, nor will I say that.

Bending Scripture or my words does not change what is written or said.

But I say, and have always implied, that a man is not a co-agent of his Salvation. Having faith is not co-agency; as saving faith is a gift.

If you are a co-agent of your salvation, then that salvation is not a gift by God's grace, nor is that salvation of Him. You profess a salvation dependent in part upon upon yourself - not only for its inception, but also for its maintenance and future completion. That is totally foreign [even hostile] to the work of God that He accomplished in Christ.

A person must choose to exercise their free will to choose to obey the Gospel message and Repent and confess Jesus Christ as Lord, and believe God raised Him from the dead.

This is the very beginning of a person's faith.

A person must continue to believe to the end in order to be saved.

as it is written -

receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13



Otherwise you believe in universal reconciliation.

 

[gr8grace3]

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:21-22


if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

This is Client nation status. Israel was cut off from being Gods client Nation, and the Romans(gentiles) were grafted in. Some of the Romans were becoming arrogant(Anti-semitic, Gen 12:3) of this fact. Romans 11:19-20. And eventually,Rome was cut off, they lost their client nation status. USA, looks to be going in that direction? This is not about individual believers being cast into the LoF.

Israel was cut off. But......

Romans 11:1~~New American Standard Bible
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Romans 11:11~~New American Standard Bible
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

 

[Jesse]

Hi Jesse, thank you for your mature response. Calvin had only one theory of those who will be saved in the end. Those were the elect, period. For everyone else, he believes that God has not called to Salvation. In other words, God elects some to be saved and all others He does not call, only the elect. As for all believers being referred to as elect? No. God chooses the elect to be saved and non elect He chooses to be lost.

In the TULIP theory, Calvin' "L" stood for "limited atonement." In other words, the atoning work of Christ was only for the elect, no one outside of that group. That is what I reject because God is willing that none perish. It was this problem of God electing all other people to be lost that I had to examine all the Scriptures that dealt with "God is not willing that any perish" In Calvin's own words speaking about "predestination" "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whoever He wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation......we say that He (all people) has been predestined to life or to death."


For the answer to the children, I have not read anything about the fate of children in Calvin's writings.. I could be wrong. Children under the age of accountability, by the many men that I have either read of listened to all feel the same. I have heard some pretty lame teachings on where a child goes if they die young. So, I had to search the Scriptures and find a biblical answer. That is found in Romans 5:13 "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."You see, from Adam to Moses, there was a period of 1,500 years between when sin was introduced thru Adam to when the Law came thru Moses. Yet, during all those years, mans sins were not being recorded because God had not set down His Commandments. Men were sinning, it's just that there was no record of it.

Except for the blurb about how God was grieved for creating man because they were so miserably corrupt, then He sent a flood and killed all but 8 of them.

Do you hold onto all aspects of TULIP?

Total depravity would mean no one could do any good works at all. Depravity would mean having only evil thoughts, behavior would consistently be evil, any kind or thoughtful act would be impossible to accomplish. A mother who loved her child so much, she made a basket for him and floated him in the water to avoid he being killed and Pharaoh's wife taking Moses out of the basket in the water and caring for the child. Total depravity wouldn't allow for any kindness or love.

Now we come to children. The age of accountability varies with each child. For some it can be quite young, for a child who matures very quick. For others, it may be 13, when they are considered knowing right from wrong. I know people who are mentally challenged, who never mature and remain a child in his/her thinking. Since they all don't understand the Law of God, their sins are not being recorded therefore they go to heaven when they die.

In many things God is not partial, but I'll let you decide this statement in, Romans 9:10 "And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

These verses are what those who agree with Calvin and his theory of "Limited Atonement" believe on. I must say that those verses are quite convincing but do not satisfy that God is not willing that any person perish unless one believes that God means the elect.

When God said that no one shall perish, doesn't that mean "no one". When Jesus died for the whole world, does it mean, for the world, but not for every person?

A person ignores a lot of scripture when they support Calvinism. I also can see how people who claim Calvinism and then abuse God's grace because they believe their salvation is firm.

 

[veryberry]

A person must choose to exercise their free will to choose to obey the Gospel message and Repent and confess Jesus Christ as Lord, and believe God raised Him from the dead.

This is the very beginning of a person's faith.

A person must continue to believe to the end in order to be saved.

as it is written -

receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13



Otherwise you believe in universal reconciliation.

Will Jesus Christ have to suffer, and endure to the end of the 7 year tribulation(Time of Jacobs Trouble)? If not, why?

 

[JLB]

Will Jesus Christ have to suffer, and endure to the end of the 7 year tribulation(Time of Jacobs Trouble)? If not, why?

No such thing as a 7 year Tribulation.

Jesus was cut off, and the Temple was destroyed in verse 26 before the 70th week ever starts in verse 27.

In other words, Jesus was crucified "outside" of the 70 week time frame.

The Temple and city was destroyed "outside" of the 70 week time frame.


JLB

 

[veryberry]

No such thing as a 7 year Tribulation.

Jesus was cut off, and the Temple was destroyed in verse 26 before the 70th week ever starts in verse 27.

In other words, Jesus was crucified "outside" of the 70 week time frame.

The Temple and city was destroyed "outside" of the 70 week time frame.


JLB

Has the 70 weeks been fulfilled or does something still need to happen for it's fulfillment? It is my understanding that the Time of Jacobs Trouble is the last week of Daniel's seventy weeks. Do you believe this as well? Would Jesus have to suffer and endure to the end of this time?

 

[Nintentacle]

Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:27-29)

 

[FreeGrace]

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29
Is this the scripture that you believe that teaches us eternal life is irrevocable?
If so, that would mean that every single Natural Israelite are saved.
LOL!!! That's very funny.
JLB

I wish you would explain yourself, but what you've posted makes no sense and does not relate to my post in the least.

Apparently you think 11:29 is about Israel. What brings you to that conclusion? I mean, what verses can you provide that shows that the gifts and calling were for Israel?

In fact, the nation of Israel is never referred to as "called". In fact, they were chosen, not invited, which is the meaning of the word for "called". Do you understand the huge difference between being invited and being chosen? Apparently not.

Second, where are the verses about the nation Israel receiving gifts from God? What are those gifts?

I provided the context for 11:29. And you in typical fashion, ignored all of it.

How about providing an explanation of what 11:29 means to you. That would be a start.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's interesting to note that the same folks who say "eternal life is life without end", also say eternal punishment in the eternal fires of hell, doesn't mean forever.

Not me. Please quit making such broad brushed comments that aren't true. Eternal means exactly that; whether being with God forever, or in the LoF forever.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

Yep. Eternally.

Those people who reject the Gospel will be tormented day and night forever and ever, right.

That's what the Bible says. Do you believe it?

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Knowing God is eternal life.

If a person believes for a while, and departs from the Living God, they no longer know God.

How silly. Certainly you know Santa Claus, even thought you do not believe in him. Your logic continues to be quite fuzzy.

As long as we continue to believe and turn to Him when we stumble and fall, He will never leave us, and no one can snatch us from His hand.

How come you have failed to provide any verse about the need to "continue to believe"? Because there aren't any.

 

[FreeGrace]

A person is a co-agent with God in their salvation.

Thanks for the very clear demonstration of your complete misunderstanding of the meaning of grace. Which has been evident all along, given your views and posts. But at least now you've really come out of the closet.

Your statement means that man helps God in their salvation. Totally wrong. But at least we understand where your error comes from.

A person must choose to exercise their free will to choose to obey the Gospel message and Repent and confess Jesus Christ as Lord, and believe God raised Him from the dead.

This in no way makes man a "co-agent" in their salvation.

Do you understand the mechanics of giving a gift? The giver has a gift and offers it to someone we'll call the givee. If the givee receives the gift, how does that make the givee a "co-agent" of the giver? It does NOT. In any way.

Only if the givee had gone to the store with the giver and helped pick out the gift (decide what the gift would be), or helped the giver wrap the gift, could you say the givee was a "co-agent" of the giver.

But since your understanding of grace is completely flawed, it is no wonder why you come up with these erroneous ideas.

A person must continue to believe to the end in order to be saved.

What verse teaches this? You keep repeating it but have not provided any Scripture to support your notion.

as it is written -

receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

It's easy to pick and choose whatever verses you want to quote. But because you ignore context, you are mixing apples and oranges. Matt 24:13 is in the context of the Tribulation, and only applies to those going through it.

 

[FreeGrace]

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:21-22


if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Please prove that this refers to hell. From context.

 

[JLB]

Please prove that this refers to hell. From context.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

 

[FreeGrace]

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Where is the reference to hell here? You have not proven or even shown any evidence that this verse indicates loss of salvation.

Jesus used an agricultural metaphor. What farmers do to branches that are unuseful; they discard them. Jesus' point was that those believers who weren't abiding in Him aren't useful to Him. And He casts them aside, just as a farmer burns unproductive branches.

There is nothing here about eternal fire, such as is clearly stated in Jude 1:7 - Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The word "fire" is used frequently in Scripture for a variety of reasons. Only when clearly indicated that the fire goes on forever should you take it as hell.

So the verse doesn't support your notion and doesn't mean what you want it to mean.

And again, God's gifts and calling are irrevocable. You've not proven that Paul was referring to Israel in Rom 11:29. And I showed the context throughout his epistle where he defines both calling and gifts before he wrote 11:29.

When God gifts eternal life to a believer, that gift is irrevocable. Your denial has no effect on the truth of it.

Scripture does not ever describe Israel as "called". In fact, they were chosen; a huge difference. And what supposed gift do you have in mind if 11:29 did refer to Israel?

 

[gr8grace3]

Total depravity wouldn't allow for any kindness or love.

Total depravity does allow for human kindness and human love..........which is evil or dung in Gods eyes.

Heb 5:13~~New American Standard Bible
But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

If you will notice, It takes solid food(Bible doctrine) and constant practice to SEE the difference from Good and evil.

From a human viewpoint or a infant(Just milk) in Christ viewpoint, good and evil are hard for us to discern.

Apart from God we can do nothing good(Divine Good)

An unbeliever can show kindness and help people, love his children,love his wife and live a very respectable life. And it is evil or dung in the sight of the Lord. He is totally depraved apart from God. And it is human good.

A believer who is out of fellowship with the Lord and not walking in the Spirit is doing evil.

Which brings us back to our subject. If a believer thinks they can lose their salvation(most of them are secure in theirs, its for the other guy) And are doing deeds to keep that salvation, they are operating from a human viewpoint and are doing human good(evil.) They are losing blessings and rewards and are missing the opportunity to operate in the Spirit and do Divine good for the Lord.

 

[reba]

Hey guys lets remember we are Brothers and Sisters in the Lord,, we are not them against us...

2.4: Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[smaller]

Eternal life and eternal damnation in hell applied as a fact in one simple lesson:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

It's never as easy as it appears on the surface my friends. Paul was eternally saved. Within Paul's flesh he carried an entity that was eternally damned.

Neither side of this petty OSAS vs NON debate has even gotten close to Paul on this matter.

 

[gr8grace3]

Eternal life and eternal damnation in hell applied as a fact in one simple lesson:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

It's never as easy as it appears on the surface my friends. Paul was eternally saved. Within Paul's flesh he carried an entity that was eternally damned.

Neither side of this petty OSAS vs NON debate has even gotten close to Paul on this matter.

It is not petty.
As Christians, our greatest hope and confidence lies in the fact that at the moment of salvation we have eternal life.

Salvation is the result of a single non-meritorious act of faith on our part and relies totally upon the grace of God.

And if you read through this debate there are a lot of people who deny this. There may be souls at stake. It is not petty.

 

[smaller]

Total depravity does allow for human kindness and human love..........which is evil or dung in Gods eyes.

One of Calvin's more blatant flaws in theo-logic in all it's resplendent lapsarian covers.

 

[smaller]

It is not petty.
As Christians, our greatest hope and confidence lies in the fact that at the moment of salvation we have eternal life.

Salvation is the result of a single non-meritorious act of faith on our part and relies totally upon the grace of God.

And if you read through this debate there are a lot of people who deny this. There may be souls at stake. It is not petty.

Looking at Paul every last one of you fails to see the PARTY IN RED as a party other than Paul, and it's attendant eternal fate.

It is pointless to see just Paul in blue just as it is equally pointless to consider the state of the fallen believers apart from the RED PARTY.

The debate still has a very long way to travel just to get all parties drawn out for viewing.

And this is part of the proof present reality of the phenomenon.

Only those 'in Truth' can pinpoint the PARTY IN RED as being applicable to themSELVES.

I will raise my hand and point to this fact for me as I am a sinner and my sin is assuredly of the DEVIL who entered, blinded and tempted me to do so, even if only by thought.

And the instant I conceded to that entry as a fact of reality, it was no longer a question of ME only in any theological premise.

 

[gr8grace3]

Looking at Paul every last one of you fails to see the PARTY IN RED as a party other than Paul, and it's attendant eternal fate.

It is pointless to see just Paul in blue just as it is equally pointless to consider the state of the fallen believers apart from the RED PARTY.

The debate still has a very long way to travel just to get all parties drawn out for viewing.

And this is part of the proof present reality of the phenomenon.

Only those 'in Truth' can pinpoint the PARTY IN RED as being applicable to themSELVES.

I will raise my hand and point to this fact for me as I am a sinner and my sin is assuredly of the DEVIL who entered, blinded and tempted me to do so, even if only by thought.

And the instant I conceded to that entry as a fact of reality, it was no longer a question of ME only in any theological premise.

I am not mature enough in Christ to see what you are saying. What I see from my perspective is this:

1. You are not responsible for your sin.

2. All will be saved because it is not really our fault.

If I am wrong, could you please revert to layman's terms.