OSAS The Truth

[smaller]

I am not mature enough in Christ to see what you are saying. What I see from my perspective is this:

1. You are not responsible for your sin.

No matter how responsible Paul was Paul was never responsible enough to make the messenger of Satan in his own flesh any less the sinning entity that it was/is unto eternal damnation.

2. All will be saved because it is not really our fault.

Obviously the party in Red will not and can not be saved for any reason, period.

If I am wrong, could you please revert to layman's terms.

I am merely observing the layman's theological nightmare of blindness to you in failing to account for the reality of the party in RED, the devil and his messengers.

Jesus dealt with these parties IN M A N K I N D on nearly every page of the N.T. Gospels. A believer would have to be blind to miss this fact wouldn't they?

Years ago, after engaging in a 10 or 12 year intensive study of Law and Grace I received what I call a breakthrough on the subject matter when 'sharing' my frustrations with another believer.

The conversation went kind of like this:

Who is the law for?

I: Sinners and the lawless (1 Tim. 1:9) But all of us are and remain sinners, so the law must apply to us as lawless sinners.

Would you consider the devil and his messengers as lawless?

I: Undoubtedly

Where are the devil and his messengers located?

I: DING!

Problem solved.

Jesus gave us the first INSIDE look at this matter here:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

There are no exemptions after salvation. We all still sin, even if in mind and that SIN is in fact of the DEVIL.

And yes, even temptation is sin of the devil that transpires within believers.

None of us are turned from the power of Satan as a one time event, even though our initial turning is GOOD for an eternity in heaven. It is a continual internal wrestling match as long as we remain on earth.

 

[gr8grace3]

No matter how responsible Paul was Paul was never responsible enough to make the messenger of Satan in his own flesh any less the sinning entity that it was/is unto eternal damnation.



Obviously the party in Red will not and can not be saved for any reason, period.



I am merely observing the layman's theological nightmare of blindness to you in failing to account for the reality of the party in RED, the devil and his messengers.

Jesus dealt with these parties IN M A N K I N D on nearly every page of the N.T. Gospels. A believer would have to be blind to miss this fact wouldn't they?

Years ago, after engaging in a 10 or 12 year intensive study of Law and Grace I received what I call a breakthrough on the subject matter when 'sharing' my frustrations with another believer.

The conversation went kind of like this:

Who is the law for?

I: Sinners and the lawless (1 Tim. 1:9) But all of us are and remain sinners, so the law must apply to us as lawless sinners.

Would you consider the devil and his messengers as lawless?

I: Undoubtedly

Where are the devil and his messengers located?

I: DING!

Problem solved.

Jesus gave us the first INSIDE look at this matter here:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

There are no exemptions after salvation. We all still sin, even if in mind and that SIN is in fact of the DEVIL.

And yes, even temptation is sin of the devil that transpires within believers.

None of us are turned from the power of Satan as a one time event, even though our initial turning is GOOD for an eternity in heaven. It is a continual internal wrestling match as long as we remain on earth.

Believers are not indwelt by demons or satan. And this goes back to some of our previous conversations. You fail to see the new creature in Christ. How can a Christian not see this fact?

You only see the red and blue creatures and fail to see the Pure White creature in Christ.

 

[smaller]

Believers are not indwelt by demons or Satan. And this goes back to some of our previous conversations. You fail to see the new creature in Christ. How can a Christian not see this fact?

You only see the red and blue creatures and fail to see the Pure White creature in Christ.

I believe Paul wrote truthfully. My bad. And as to your fairytale there, I have not derided any believer's eternal fate either. So please keep in mind we are in the same camp, except I don't spread eternal salvation one bit futher than the believer and NOT to the messengers of Satan in believers flesh.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

 

[Deborah13]

Scripture does not ever describe Israel as "called". In fact, they were chosen; a huge difference. And what supposed gift do you have in mind if 11:29 did refer to Israel?

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Israel = type the Messiah = anti-type

I don't see how the Messiah being the fulfillment changes the fact that God called Israel out of Egypt. Both are true. But the important thing is that scripture says that the prophecy was fulfilled.
The Messiah/Israel, The gifts and callings are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternal life and eternal damnation in hell applied as a fact in one simple lesson:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

It's never as easy as it appears on the surface my friends. Paul was eternally saved. Within Paul's flesh he carried an entity that was eternally damned.

Neither side of this petty OSAS vs NON debate has even gotten close to Paul on this matter.

I'd say that you still haven't been clear as to your point. And Paul never said anything about "carrying an entity" that was eternally damned. There was a messenger of Satan to buffet him, but where do you get the idea that Paul carried that messenger IN his flesh???

And what's the point anyway?

 

[JLB]

Thanks for the very clear demonstration of your complete misunderstanding of the meaning of grace. Which has been evident all along, given your views and posts. But at least now you've really come out of the closet.

Your statement means that man helps God in their salvation. Totally wrong. But at least we understand where your error comes from.


This in no way makes man a "co-agent" in their salvation.

Do you understand the mechanics of giving a gift? The giver has a gift and offers it to someone we'll call the givee. If the givee receives the gift, how does that make the givee a "co-agent" of the giver? It does NOT. In any way.

Only if the givee had gone to the store with the giver and helped pick out the gift (decide what the gift would be), or helped the giver wrap the gift, could you say the givee was a "co-agent" of the giver.

But since your understanding of grace is completely flawed, it is no wonder why you come up with these erroneous ideas.


What verse teaches this? You keep repeating it but have not provided any Scripture to support your notion.


It's easy to pick and choose whatever verses you want to quote. But because you ignore context, you are mixing apples and oranges. Matt 24:13 is in the context of the Tribulation, and only applies to those going through it.

Grace is God's gift to us.

It is accessed by faith. Faith comes by hearing the spoken word of God.

For a person's faith to be "alive" they must obey the word of God they hear.


If we hear the Gospel, and receive the faith that comes by hearing the Gospel, but we don't exercise our free will to obey the Gospel by Repent, confess Jesus as Lord, and believe God raised Him from the dead, then we won't be saved.


God does not do our believing for us.

God does not do our obeying for us.


8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-10



Paul who wrote to the Ephesians -

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

also went on to warn these same Ephesians -

Believers are not indwelt by demons or satan. And this goes back to some of our previous conversations. You fail to see the new creature in Christ. How can a Christian not see this fact?

You only see the red and blue creatures and fail to see the Pure White creature in Christ.

Christians are the only people on earth, that have the right to have the devil cast out of them.

Those who don't belong to Christ are the property of Satan.

CHRISTIANS have the right to BECOME sons of God through the process of transformation.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Has the 70 weeks been fulfilled or does something still need to happen for it's fulfillment? It is my understanding that the Time of Jacobs Trouble is the last week of Daniel's seventy weeks. Do you believe this as well? Would Jesus have to suffer and endure to the end of this time?

The prince who is to come will confirm a covenant with the Jews for 7 years.

In the middle of the 7 year period he, the prince who is to come, will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

That's mean there will be a Temple built again, which is underway and going support.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Looking at Paul every last one of you fails to see the PARTY IN RED as a party other than Paul, and it's attendant eternal fate.

It is pointless to see just Paul in blue just as it is equally pointless to consider the state of the fallen believers apart from the RED PARTY.

It would be very helpful if you'd just come out and tell us what your point is. Who is this "party in red" and so what? What's the point?

The debate still has a very long way to travel just to get all parties drawn out for viewing.

Until you start drawing, no one will have any idea of what your point is.

And this is part of the proof present reality of the phenomenon.

"proof present reality of the phenomenon"??? Huh?

Only those 'in Truth' can pinpoint the PARTY IN RED as being applicable to themSELVES.

OK, I think I'm beginning to understand where you're coming from. The problem is that this messenger from Satan was sent to buffet Paul from being puffed up because of the "surpassingly great revelations" (2 Cor 12:7) when he was "caught up to the third heaven" (2 Cor 12:2).

This "phenomenon" doesn't happen to everyone, as it seems you are saying. So it doesn't apply to ourselves.

Have you been caught up to the 3rd heaven and seen surpassingly great revelations lately? Unless you have, you have no claim on having what Paul had; a messenger from Satan to buffet you about.

I will raise my hand and point to this fact for me as I am a sinner and my sin is assuredly of the DEVIL who entered, blinded and tempted me to do so, even if only by thought.

Wrong. Your sin comes from 3 sources; lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life. 1 Jn 2:16. Don't blame Satan for your sins. James tells us where sin comes from; internal temptation. "by his own evil desire", James 1:14

And the instant I conceded to that entry as a fact of reality, it was no longer a question of ME only in any theological premise.

So you think this so-called buffeting messenger has something to do with your theological premise???

 

[FreeGrace]

No matter how responsible Paul was Paul was never responsible enough to make the messenger of Satan in his own flesh any less the sinning entity that it was/is unto eternal damnation.

Could you please explain this in laymans's terms?

Obviously the party in Red will not and can not be saved for any reason, period.

So what? Why do you think Paul would be responsible in any way for this buffeting messenger from Satan???

Years ago, after engaging in a 10 or 12 year intensive study of Law and Grace I received what I call a breakthrough on the subject matter when 'sharing' my frustrations with another believer.

It seems you're causing a lot of frustrations in your confusing posts.

The conversation went kind of like this:

Who is the law for?

I: Sinners and the lawless (1 Tim. 1:9) But all of us are and remain sinners, so the law must apply to us as lawless sinners.

Would you consider the devil and his messengers as lawless?

I: Undoubtedly

Where are the devil and his messengers located?

I: DING!

Problem solved.

"Ding"? Where is that? What planet? I've never heard of a location called "ding" before. Please explain.

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe Paul wrote truthfully. My bad. And as to your fairytale there, I have not derided any believer's eternal fate either. So please keep in mind we are in the same camp, except I don't spread eternal salvation one bit futher than the believer and NOT to the messengers of Satan in believers flesh.

Why in the world would any of this be relevant to anything? Who cares about Satan or his messengers regarding eternal salvation? They aren't even in the picture.

Get the picture?

 

[JLB]

Why in the world would any of this be relevant to anything? Who cares about Satan or his messengers regarding eternal salvation? They aren't even in the picture.

Get the picture?

If you repent and turn from Satan as your Lord, and confess Jesus as Lord, then proceed to obey Satan and practice the works of the flesh, then you are a hypocrite and will end up in the same place as Satan whom you obeyed.

The everlasting fires of hell,

 

[FreeGrace]

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Can you apply this to Rom 11:29? No. This is a specific reference to God leading Israel out of Egypt. This has nothing to do with what Paul was talking about in Romans. How could an event that occurred so long ago even be considered to be revocable anyway?? Paul was not speaking of God leading the Jews out of Egypt in Rom 11:29. Esp since he repeatedly used the term "called" of the Roman believers. 1:45,6,7, 8:28,30.

Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

What does this have to do with Rom 11:29? Are you suggesting that the LORD "called" Israel "My firstborn"?? Even so, that can't be revoked either. Once a child, always a child. You're not making your point.

Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

This is a specific reference to God calling His Son back from Egypt. Again, this has nothing to do with Rom 11:29.

Israel = type the Messiah = anti-type

I don't see how the Messiah being the fulfillment changes the fact that God called Israel out of Egypt. Both are true. But the important thing is that scripture says that the prophecy was fulfilled.
The Messiah/Israel, The gifts and callings are irrevocable.

You haven't yet shown any gift to Isael. What were they? And the "callings" you've cited have nothing to do with Romans.

Specifically, Paul defined imputed righteousness as a gift in 5:15,17 and eternal life as a gift in 6:23. That is the context for 11:29.

But nice try anyhoo.

 

[gr8grace3]

I believe Paul wrote truthfully. My bad. And as to your fairytale there, I have not derided any believer's eternal fate either. So please keep in mind we are in the same camp, except I don't spread eternal salvation one bit futher than the believer and NOT to the messengers of Satan in believers flesh.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit,Jesus Christ and God the Father. He shares His home with the messengers of Satan? No. And the Greek will correct your understanding if you are willing.

To Buffet~~verb~~KOLAPHIZW~~strike with a fist,beat or punch someone. It is the same word used in Mt 26:67 for what the roman soldiers did to our Lord after His arrest. It is an external source causing pain in the flesh. And the present tense is an iterative present. And is a current event that happens at different times, but not constantly.
Paul was not indwelt with a messenger of satan.

It is NO fairytale that a believer cannot be indwelt by a demon.

It is NO fairy tale that a believer becomes a new creature in Christ.

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.

 

[FreeGrace]

Grace is God's gift to us.

Do you have a verse to support that? Paul was very specific about the gifts he described: imputed righteousness in 5:15 and 17 and eternal life in 6:23. And he said that God's giftS were irrevocable. iow, both imputed righteousness and eternal life are irrevocable. You've not shown otherwise.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.

The "it" in the phrase "it is the gift of God" refers back to "have been saved", or a reference to our salvation. That is the gift. Not grace. There are no verses that tell us that grace is a gift.

CHRISTIANS have the right to BECOME sons of God through the process of transformation.

In fact, we have the right to become sons of God through faith in Christ. Not transformation.

Jn 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

We receive when we believe. That's how we become the sons of God.

Certainly not by transformation.

 

[FreeGrace]

If you repent and turn from Satan as your Lord, and confess Jesus as Lord, then proceed to obey Satan and practice the works of the flesh, then you are a hypocrite and will end up in the same place as Satan whom you obeyed.

The everlasting fires of hell,

Do you have a verse to support this supposition??

And, eternal life is a gift that is irrevocable. So what you suppose cannot occur.

 

[Deborah13]

Can you apply this to Rom 11:29? No. This is a specific reference to God leading Israel out of Egypt. This has nothing to do with what Paul was talking about in Romans. How could an event that occurred so long ago even be considered to be revocable anyway?? Paul was not speaking of God leading the Jews out of Egypt in Rom 11:29. Esp since he repeatedly used the term "called" of the Roman believers. 1:45,6,7, 8:28,30.


What does this have to do with Rom 11:29? Are you suggesting that the LORD "called" Israel "My firstborn"?? Even so, that can't be revoked either. Once a child, always a child. You're not making your point.


This is a specific reference to God calling His Son back from Egypt. Again, this has nothing to do with Rom 11:29.


You haven't yet shown any gift to Isael. What were they? And the "callings" you've cited have nothing to do with Romans.

Specifically, Paul defined imputed righteousness as a gift in 5:15,17 and eternal life as a gift in 6:23. That is the context for 11:29.

But nice try anyhoo.

Are you suggesting that those who put their faith in the Rock before the cross didn't receive the same gift of righteousness of the Christ or the same gift of eternal life as those after the cross? Are you saying that Abraham's faith, which was accounted to him as righteousness, is not the same as our faith being accounted as righteousness?
As for the OT scriptures that I posted being revealed in NT scriptures, well that is how I see it and yes, I see it applied to Romans 11:29 as well as others.

 

[Deborah13]

Believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit,Jesus Christ and God the Father. He shares His home with the messengers of Satan? No. And the Greek will correct your understanding if you are willing.

To Buffet~~verb~~KOLAPHIZW~~strike with a fist,beat or punch someone. It is the same word used in Mt 26:67 for what the roman soldiers did to our Lord after His arrest. It is an external source causing pain in the flesh. And the present tense is an iterative present. And is a current event that happens at different times, but not constantly.
Paul was not indwelt with a messenger of satan.

It is NO fairytale that a believer cannot be indwelt by a demon.

It is NO fairy tale that a believer becomes a new creature in Christ.

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.

I not saying that I understand smaller but what he is saying is not that different then most Christians believe. Namely that until we are resurrected in perfection we still have the old man living in our flesh, who will prefer to follow in the ways of satan, pride being the main culprit. satan and his demons can still tempt this old man mainly through our thoughts and sometimes the new man doesn't win over the desires of the old man.
The old man is not holy material, only the new man is holy.

 

[gr8grace3]

I not saying that I understand smaller but what he is saying is not that different then most Christians believe. Namely that until we are resurrected in perfection we still have the old man living in our flesh, who will prefer to follow in the ways of satan, pride being the main culprit. satan and his demons can still tempt this old man mainly through our thoughts and sometimes the new man doesn't win over the desires of the old man.
The old man is not holy material, only the new man is holy.

It is basically the same thing I believe, we still have the flesh to contend with. But I wholly disagree with believers being indwelt by demons.

But Here is the main rub with me Deb:

Loss of salvation~~~ The Thread is replete with creature credit and the power of man in salvation. Christ/Grace/mercy/gift/His power is a very distant second.

Now look at the thread. Along comes satan and his power in it.

Christ gets lost if salvation can be lost.

If we can lose salvation,by any means, Christ failed. Not us.

 

[Gregg]

Are you suggesting that those who put their faith in the Rock before the cross didn't receive the same gift of righteousness of the Christ or the same gift of eternal life as those after the cross? Are you saying that Abraham's faith, which was accounted to him as righteousness, is not the same as our faith being accounted as righteousness?
As for the OT scriptures that I posted being revealed in NT scriptures, well that is how I see it and yes, I see it applied to Romans 11:29 as well as others.

Abraham's act of faith, his believing in the LORD, was accounted to him as righteousness (Gen 15:6, Rom 4:3, Rom 4:22, Gal 3:6); where God's righteousness is accounted to(ward) those who believe in Christ through faith (Rom 3:22, 2Cor 5:21, Php 3:9, 2Pet 1:1).

That is not to say that God's righteousness was not, or never will be, accounted to the OT saints through Christ. As the OT saints looked forward to the same righteousness of GOD to be accounted to them (Isa 45:24, Jer 23:6, Dan 9:24).

Even [one of] God's name is the LORD our Righteousness יהוה צדקנו.

 

[smaller]

I'd say that you still haven't been clear as to your point. And Paul never said anything about "carrying an entity" that was eternally damned.

There is no question about messengers of Satan being eternally damned.

There was a messenger of Satan to buffet him, but where do you get the idea that Paul carried that messenger IN his flesh???

Uh, because that is what Paul stated.

And what's the point anyway?

Reading comprehension in relationship to applicability of theological premise.