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Paul was not indwelt with a messenger of satan.

I'd suggest that your account of Paul is quite different than Paul's own very clear statement and that focus on the term buffet isn't going to change the messenger of Satan in 2 Cor. 12:7 into Jimmy Buffet.
It is NO fairytale that a believer cannot be indwelt by a demon.

According to Paul you would be mistaken. Paul also stated he had evil present with him in Romans 7:21. A messenger of Satan certainly accounts for that unless you want to jump theological ship and say only Paul was evil? I don't have to by reading what Paul stated in 2 Cor. 12:7 as that nails the evil present and makes it NOT PAUL.
It is NO fairy tale that a believer becomes a new creature in Christ.

It's a position of partial grant in this present life UNTIL we put off corruption, dishonor, weakness and the natural body.

Our life is presently HID.
 
Except for the blurb about how God was grieved for creating man because they were so miserably corrupt, then He sent a flood and killed all but 8 of them.

Do you hold onto all aspects of TULIP?

Total depravity would mean no one could do any good works at all. Depravity would mean having only evil thoughts, behavior would consistently be evil, any kind or thoughtful act would be impossible to accomplish. A mother who loved her child so much, she made a basket for him and floated him in the water to avoid he being killed and Pharaoh's wife taking Moses out of the basket in the water and caring for the child. Total depravity wouldn't allow for any kindness or love.


When God said that no one shall perish, doesn't that mean "no one". When Jesus died for the whole world, does it mean, for the world, but not for every person?

A person ignores a lot of scripture when they support Calvinism. I also can see how people who claim Calvinism and then abuse God's grace because they believe their salvation is firm.
Jesse, I hear you loud and clear Buddy. Calvin's TULIP was not his idea, someone later gave it that nickname. I have studied the works of Calvin in his book "Institutes of the Christian Religion" of which I became very familiar with, and why he held to such a controversial doctrine. At first, I felt much like you. I only looked at the nickname and compared it to my Baptist heritage and was quite unsettled. It wasn't until I purchased the book and became familiar with his teaching, that I decided that he was right on, except "Limited Atonement".

For you to better understand this doctrine, I suggest that you purchase the book because Calvin backs up his theology with Scripture. I don't mean that he takes verses out of context, no, he validates everything he believes from passages, not just one verse. By not knowing why he believes what he believes, it's to easy to just take "pop shots" at his doctrine. It's almost as if folks who just take pop shots, they are judging the man, which I feel is not good Christian responses.

I actually don't know any Calvinists that abuse God's grace by living like the world and depending on that same grace to advance them to eternal life. Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."


As a Calvinist, I myself am acutely aware of the danger of abusing God's Grace!

Actually, Jesus' death was for all mankind, but each one must make the decision to be born again, otherwise Jesus' death has no effect on that person. Remember, the remnant elect of God will saved because of Jesus' shed Blood, and also those who come to Christ thru the "General Call" of the Gospel. Calvin did not include anyone other than the elect to be saved. That is why I add the "General Call" Calvin, IMO, was so captivated with Ephesians 1:3-6 that he perhaps concentrated to much on that theme to the abandonment of those outside of the elect or remnant. Some call the elect, the Bride of Christ, of which I agree. Another good and important read beside the book that I have mentioned, which has 1059 pages, is a small paper back book called "The Five Points Of Calvinism by, David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas. which has only 95 pages.

I do wish you and others would read up on Calvin's works instead of so much criticism. I think that one of the reasons that Calvin was so negative towards people who were not of the elect was the Roman Catholic Church and its Pope. He knew spiritually, that the Pope and his Priests were not a choice of God for His remnant. Because he could find no room in Christendom for these imposter's, he threw out the baby with the bath water.
 
I'd suggest that your account of Paul is quite different than Paul's own very clear statement and that focus on the term buffet isn't going to change the messenger of Satan in 2 Cor. 12:7 into Jimmy Buffet.
The messenger is an angel of Satan, no doubt. But it is not indwelling Paul.
1 Corinthians 6:19–20 (NASB95)
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body

"It's far less painful to not acknowledge faulty logic."
(T. Durden/ZeroHedge)
 
Abraham's act of faith, his believing in the LORD, was accounted to him as righteousness (Gen 15:6, Rom 4:3, Rom 4:22, Gal 3:6); where God's righteousness is accounted to(ward) those who believe in Christ through faith (Rom 3:22, 2Cor 5:21, Php 3:9, 2Pet 1:1).

That is not to say that God's righteousness was not, or never will be, accounted to the OT saints through Christ. As the OT saints looked forward to the same righteousness of GOD to be accounted to them (Isa 45:24, Jer 23:6, Dan 9:24).

Even [one of] God's name is the LORD our Righteousness יהוה צדקנו.
Good supporting scriptures, Greg.
 
Actually, it is the doctrine of man that has set out to prove OSAS is wrong, and that does nothing to edify the body of Christ.

OSAS leads many into a false sense of security, I know because I was there. It's not a Biblical doctrine. I has it's origins in the Reformation era.
 
Jesse, I hear you loud and clear Buddy. Calvin's TULIP was not his idea, someone later gave it that nickname. I have studied the works of Calvin in his book "Institutes of the Christian Religion" of which I became very familiar with, and why he held to such a controversial doctrine. At first, I felt much like you. I only looked at the nickname and compared it to my Baptist heritage and was quite unsettled. It wasn't until I purchased the book and became familiar with his teaching, that I decided that he was right on, except "Limited Atonement".

For you to better understand this doctrine, I suggest that you purchase the book because Calvin backs up his theology with Scripture. I don't mean that he takes verses out of context, no, he validates everything he believes from passages, not just one verse. By not knowing why he believes what he believes, it's to easy to just take "pop shots" at his doctrine. It's almost as if folks who just take pop shots, they are judging the man, which I feel is not good Christian responses.

I actually don't know any Calvinists that abuse God's grace by living like the world and depending on that same grace to advance them to eternal life. Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."


As a Calvinist, I myself am acutely aware of the danger of abusing God's Grace!

Actually, Jesus' death was for all mankind, but each one must make the decision to be born again, otherwise Jesus' death has no effect on that person. Remember, the remnant elect of God will saved because of Jesus' shed Blood, and also those who come to Christ thru the "General Call" of the Gospel. Calvin did not include anyone other than the elect to be saved. That is why I add the "General Call" Calvin, IMO, was so captivated with Ephesians 1:3-6 that he perhaps concentrated to much on that theme to the abandonment of those outside of the elect or remnant. Some call the elect, the Bride of Christ, of which I agree. Another good and important read beside the book that I have mentioned, which has 1059 pages, is a small paper back book called "The Five Points Of Calvinism by, David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas. which has only 95 pages.

I do wish you and others would read up on Calvin's works instead of so much criticism. I think that one of the reasons that Calvin was so negative towards people who were not of the elect was the Roman Catholic Church and its Pope. He knew spiritually, that the Pope and his Priests were not a choice of God for His remnant. Because he could find no room in Christendom for these imposter's, he threw out the baby with the bath water.
What did Calvin teach about the two kinds of vessels? One vessel being born elect, chosen and the other being born a vessel of wrath, not chosen, fit only for eternal wrath?
 
Paul refutes your view:
Eph 1:13,14, 4:30
2 Cor 1:22, 5:5

When a person believes on Christ, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, as a promise, or pledge FOR the day of redemption. That is a guarantee.

We've already been down this road.
 
It is basically the same thing I believe, we still have the flesh to contend with. But I wholly disagree with believers being indwelt by demons.

But Here is the main rub with me Deb:

Loss of salvation~~~ The Thread is replete with creature credit and the power of man in salvation. Christ/Grace/mercy/gift/His power is a very distant second.

Now look at the thread. Along comes satan and his power in it.

Christ gets lost if salvation can be lost.

If we can lose salvation,by any means, Christ failed. Not us.
No we are not INDWELT by demons or satan. Only that we can fall prey to his devices and need to keep our eyes on Jesus and Him risen.
 
.
He knew spiritually, that the Pope and his Priests were not a choice of God for His remnant.

I don't recommend Calvins teaching to anyone.

But Chopper, could you please address 2 things for me.

You told Jesse that no one knows who the elect are. How did Calvin know about the Pope or the Priests?

And this~~
First of all, if a man expresses his position as part of the elect that was called before the foundation of the world, he probably is not! That IMO is a huge boast and desire to sin and still be counted as elect.

Calvin expressed his position as part of the elect.
 
Are you suggesting that those who put their faith in the Rock before the cross didn't receive the same gift of righteousness of the Christ or the same gift of eternal life as those after the cross?
Yes, of course they did. Which is my point. That is the gift that Paul wrote about in Rom 11:29, which is that the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

Are you saying that Abraham's faith, which was accounted to him as righteousness, is not the same as our faith being accounted as righteousness?
Of course it's the same. Which again supports my point; that Rom 11:29 is referring to eternal life. iow, those who have been given that gift cannot lose it. It is irrevocable.

As for the OT scriptures that I posted being revealed in NT scriptures, well that is how I see it and yes, I see it applied to Romans 11:29 as well as others.
Those verses have nothing to do with eternal life. When Paul wrote 11:29, the context is found within the letter. Paul specifically noted that imputed righteousness is a gift in 5:15 and 17 and eternal life as a gift in 6:23.

The point remains: God's gifts (imputed righteousness and eternal life) are irrevocable.

Irrefutable.
 
There is no question about messengers of Satan being eternally damned.
And there is no question that this messenger of Satan is irrelevant to the discussion on eternal security. None of them have any relevance to the believer's eternal security. I still have no idea why you've brought it up.
 
OSAS leads many into a false sense of security, I know because I was there. It's not a Biblical doctrine. I has it's origins in the Reformation era.
Nope. It is a Biblical doctrine. Please Read Romans 1:5,6,7 and 8:28 and 30 about who are referred to as the "called".

Then read Rom 5:15 and 17 and 6:23 about what is described as a gift of God.

Then read Rom 11:29. Irrevocable, and irrefutable.
 
Yes, of course they did. Which is my point. That is the gift that Paul wrote about in Rom 11:29, which is that the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.


Of course it's the same. Which again supports my point; that Rom 11:29 is referring to eternal life. iow, those who have been given that gift cannot lose it. It is irrevocable.


Those verses have nothing to do with eternal life. When Paul wrote 11:29, the context is found within the letter. Paul specifically noted that imputed righteousness is a gift in 5:15 and 17 and eternal life as a gift in 6:23.

The point remains: God's gifts (imputed righteousness and eternal life) are irrevocable.

Irrefutable.
You had said you did know anywhere in scripture where it said that Israel had been 'called'. I was showing that they had been called and how that related to the fulfillment coming in the Messiah. :)

So we see that they were/are called and given gifts.
 
What did Calvin teach about the two kinds of vessels? One vessel being born elect, chosen and the other being born a vessel of wrath, not chosen, fit only for eternal wrath?
btw, no one was ever "born a vessel of wrath". Rom 9:22 does not say that. Here is what it does say: "What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

The word for "fitted" is: katartizō

1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete
1a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair
1a1) to complete
1b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust
1b1) to fit or frame for one’s self, prepare
1c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one whathe ought to be

Nothing close to "born". Regarding points 1), 1a) and 1b), I think a good modern word would be "retrofit".

The real question is whether Paul meant the passive or middle voice, since we cannot tell from the word itself, since the tense used has the same form for both the middle and passive voice.
 
You had said you did know anywhere in scripture where it said that Israel had been 'called'. I was showing that they had been called and how that related to the fulfillment coming in the Messiah. :)
I was using the word "called" in the same sense that church age believers are. And no, Israel was never described as "the called". That was my point.

And, since your only verse was about God calling out Israel from Egypt, that single episode had already occurred way back in time, so why would Paul be thinking of that "call" in 11:29 when he wrote that God's calling is irrevocable.

As if God could revoke leading the Jews out of Egypt or something. :nono

So we see that they were/are called and given gifts.
No they weren't called as used by Paul in Rom 1:5,6,7 and 8:28 and 30.

And what gifts are you referring to regarding Israel? There is contextual support for both imputed righteousness (5:15,17) and eternal life (6:23) as what Paul was referring to in 11:29. Not some gifts to Israel.

Bottom line is that Rom 11:29 nails the issue of eternal security. God's gifts and calling are irrevocable. Do you agree or disagree?
 
Nope. It is a Biblical doctrine. Please Read Romans 1:5,6,7 and 8:28 and 30 about who are referred to as the "called".

Then read Rom 5:15 and 17 and 6:23 about what is described as a gift of God.

Then read Rom 11:29. Irrevocable, and irrefutable.

I've read them all and not one says salvation can't be lost.
 
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