OSAS The Truth

[Jesse]

Total depravity does allow for human kindness and human love..........which is evil or dung in Gods eyes.

Heb 5:13~~New American Standard Bible
But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

If you will notice, It takes solid food(Bible doctrine) and constant practice to SEE the difference from Good and evil.

From a human viewpoint or a infant(Just milk) in Christ viewpoint, good and evil are hard for us to discern.

Apart from God we can do nothing good(Divine Good)

An unbeliever can show kindness and help people, love his children,love his wife and live a very respectable life. And it is evil or dung in the sight of the Lord. He is totally depraved apart from God. And it is human good.

A believer who is out of fellowship with the Lord and not walking in the Spirit is doing evil.

Which brings us back to our subject. If a believer thinks they can lose their salvation(most of them are secure in theirs, its for the other guy) And are doing deeds to keep that salvation, they are operating from a human viewpoint and are doing human good(evil.) They are losing blessings and rewards and are missing the opportunity to operate in the Spirit and do Divine good for the Lord.

Total depravity is just that - totally depraved.

If the unbeliever WAS totally depraved, they could not show kindness or love, that doctrine is completely false.

Yes, I understand that all our works are as dung, yet we have non-believers who give MORE than believers, this is not total depravity, this is just someone who is showing kindness and love to their children - which would be IMPOSSIBLE of they were totally depraved.

 

[Jesse]

Jesse, I hear you loud and clear Buddy. Calvin's TULIP was not his idea, someone later gave it that nickname. I have studied the works of Calvin in his book "Institutes of the Christian Religion" of which I became very familiar with, and why he held to such a controversial doctrine. At first, I felt much like you. I only looked at the nickname and compared it to my Baptist heritage and was quite unsettled. It wasn't until I purchased the book and became familiar with his teaching, that I decided that he was right on, except "Limited Atonement".

For you to better understand this doctrine, I suggest that you purchase the book because Calvin backs up his theology with Scripture. I don't mean that he takes verses out of context, no, he validates everything he believes from passages, not just one verse. By not knowing why he believes what he believes, it's to easy to just take "pop shots" at his doctrine. It's almost as if folks who just take pop shots, they are judging the man, which I feel is not good Christian responses.

I actually don't know any Calvinists that abuse God's grace by living like the world and depending on that same grace to advance them to eternal life. Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

As a Calvinist, I myself am acutely aware of the danger of abusing God's Grace!

Actually, Jesus' death was for all mankind, but each one must make the decision to be born again, otherwise Jesus' death has no effect on that person. Remember, the remnant elect of God will saved because of Jesus' shed Blood, and also those who come to Christ thru the "General Call" of the Gospel. Calvin did not include anyone other than the elect to be saved. That is why I add the "General Call" Calvin, IMO, was so captivated with Ephesians 1:3-6 that he perhaps concentrated to much on that theme to the abandonment of those outside of the elect or remnant. Some call the elect, the Bride of Christ, of which I agree. Another good and important read beside the book that I have mentioned, which has 1059 pages, is a small paper back book called "The Five Points Of Calvinism by, David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas. which has only 95 pages.

I do wish you and others would read up on Calvin's works instead of so much criticism. I think that one of the reasons that Calvin was so negative towards people who were not of the elect was the Roman Catholic Church and its Pope. He knew spiritually, that the Pope and his Priests were not a choice of God for His remnant. Because he could find no room in Christendom for these imposter's, he threw out the baby with the bath water.

It is greasy grace for many, and I saw it first hand, 10's of 1,000's people saw it all around the world. My thought is that maybe God showed us the fallacy of this "elect" doctrine by what happened with the church. Many things have come out since. If a person realizes their salvation is sacred, I don't think he and others would have done what they did.

 

[gr8grace3]

Total depravity is just that - totally depraved.

If the unbeliever WAS totally depraved, they could not show kindness or love, that doctrine is completely false.

Yes, I understand that all our works are as dung, yet we have non-believers who give MORE than believers, this is not total depravity, this is just someone who is showing kindness and love to their children - which would be IMPOSSIBLE of they were totally depraved.

No, we are totally depraved in and of ourselves. Our Kindness apart from God is still evil compared to Him who is perfectly Holy.
Calvinism takes it to the point that we are totally UNABLE to choose God(and if the Cross didn't come we would still not be able to choose God) and have rendered the Cross strictly to salvation. The Cross did so much more than that. It opened the way for mankind to come back to God to name one.
John12:32~~New American Standard Bible
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

 

[be-thankful-Col-3:15]

Total depravity is just that - totally depraved.

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (1 Corinthians 3:5) So . . . even as Christians, we are not sufficient of our own selves; but "it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:13) So, we all need how God in us works in our wills and doing. To me, this means our own willing effort can be an ego thing and therefore does fail.

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

So, yes we are dependent on God, even if we now are no longer depraved.

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, our assurance of salvation is how God's love has changed our nature so "as He is, so are we in this world."

 

[be-thankful-Col-3:15]

If the unbeliever WAS totally depraved, they could not show kindness or love, that doctrine is completely false.

Yes, I understand that all our works are as dung, yet we have non-believers who give MORE than believers, this is not total depravity, this is just someone who is showing kindness and love to their children - which would be IMPOSSIBLE of they were totally depraved.

I offer . . . Jesus has clearly said, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46) So, if parents love only their children, this is not being truly kind; it can be a way of showing the children that they don't need God, because the parents are so good without God. So, by showing their "kindness", in order to show they can be good without God, they are living a lie! And their loving is favoritistic, not all-loving; so their example is not kind, at all . . . not helping their children to discover how to be all-loving with Jesus. In their selfish love, they are weak so they keep on deeply suffering and staying hurt and unforgiving; so their favoritistic loving is in truth a very unkind example.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

So . . . in their selfish and favoritistic loving they can be in weakness so they can keep on suffering torments in their personality. They can be possessive, not really loving. And the Bible does say,

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

 

[gr8grace3]

It is greasy grace for many, and I saw it first hand, 10's of 1,000's people saw it all around the world. My thought is that maybe God showed us the fallacy of this "elect" doctrine by what happened with the church. Many things have come out since. If a person realizes their salvation is sacred, I don't think he and others would have done what they did.

The doctrine of election is not fallacy. Calvinisms interpretation of election is fallacy.

Election is for the believer only and it is what the believer is elected to. It is not election for salvation or eternal damnation.

 

[Deborah13]

I was using the word "called" in the same sense that church age believers are. And no, Israel was never described as "the called". That was my point.

And, since your only verse was about God calling out Israel from Egypt, that single episode had already occurred way back in time, so why would Paul be thinking of that "call" in 11:29 when he wrote that God's calling is irrevocable.

As if God could revoke leading the Jews out of Egypt or something.

You're are not understanding what I am saying and I can't think how to explain it any better. Other than I think you are focused on the natural not the spiritual.

Do you agree or disagree?

I'd like to believe that a believer could never reject Christ, That God would never allow that to happen.But some of the scriptures seem to say something different. So I just keep listening.

Romans 11:29 is a powerful scripture. I do think it is talking about the Jewish people. But when it says that His call and gifts are irrevocable that means that the ones He has given to those who are not Jews, as well.

 

[Jesse]

I offer . . . Jesus has clearly said, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46) So, if parents love only their children, this is not being truly kind; it can be a way of showing the children that they don't need God, because the parents are so good without God. So, by showing their "kindness", in order to show they can be good without God, they are living a lie! And their loving is favoritistic, not all-loving; so their example is not kind, at all . . . not helping their children to discover how to be all-loving with Jesus. In their selfish love, they are weak so they keep on deeply suffering and staying hurt and unforgiving; so their favoritistic loving is in truth a very unkind example.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

So . . . in their selfish and favoritistic loving they can be in weakness so they can keep on suffering torments in their personality. They can be possessive, not really loving. And the Bible does say,

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

That is a point, but it still doesn't prove that people are totally depraved.

They would be incapable of any kindness to their children at all.

 

[Jesse]

The doctrine of election is not fallacy. Calvinisms interpretation of election is fallacy.

Election is for the believer only and it is what the believer is elected to. It is not election for salvation or eternal damnation.

My post was to Chopper and he does believe eternal security is for the elected, that these elected are only a remnant.

 

[be-thankful-Col-3:15]

About "believers" > just because people say they are believers, this does not make it necessarily so (2 Corinthians 13:5, 1 Corinthians 6:17)). To me, it seems that some number of "once saved, always saved" people do not believe how God's love with almighty power cures us of the torments of our personality (1 John 4:18, 2 Timothy 1:7, Philippians 4:6-7).

Ones have said a prayer or gotten baptized or spoken without knowing what words they are saying, but they do not claim Isaiah 55:11 applies for all that God's word says. Isaiah 55:11 guarantees that all God's word "shall accomplish what I please" and "shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."

So, this would mean that every commandment will do all God means, in us and our lives. So, if we are only claiming a few verses for salvation but leaving out all commandments succeeding in us, we can get into a lot of problems. God in us does not only keep us for Heaven, but He succeeds in us to fulfill all of His word, including "in this world", we have in 1 John 4:17. And also He commands how we with Him succeed "in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" (in Philippians 2:14-16) < this comes right after our Apostle Paul says "it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:13).

But correction, then, is included > how Hebrews 12:7-11 clearly says God succeeds in us.

 

[be-thankful-Col-3:15]

But no we are not perfectly without sin. We see how "even" Peter so messed up, even after He had ministered the Holy Spirit to the Gentiles > Galatians 2:11-13; but he was corrected. And John fell down to worship an angel, we see in Revelation 19:9-10. But he was corrected.

So, our Father's correction is included in our guarantee, so we "become partakers of His holiness" and have His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness" (Hebrews 11:7-11).

Therefore, there is "once saved, always saved" which does not go far enough, about saying God's word means what He says. Not only are we guaranteed Heaven, but we are guaranteed how God in us will succeed in having us live all His word means to Him . . . not merely what it means to our limited understanding, as I find Isaiah 55:11 clearly does say.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths."
(Proverbs 3:6-7)

And we have this guarantee > "The LORD will guide you continually," in Isaiah 58:11. So, at all times our Father is guiding our "paths" . . . paths of our thinking, heart's desires, feelings, emotions, speaking, and actions . . . all of His love > "Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14) In His love, we have His personal guiding, all the time.

But there are ones who only say they are sure of Heaven, no matter if they sin until they die. And they say not a word about how God's word guarantees He shares with each of us personally in our hearts (Romans 5:5) while effectively correcting us (Hebrews 11:7-11) and personally guiding us (Romans 8:14), all the time > including how He has us obeying how He rules us with His own peace (Colossians 3:15).

Therefore, I think that certain but not all "once saved, always saved" people do not go "far enough", about really claiming how God's word does mean all that He means and does succeed at doing with us "who first trusted in Christ" (Ephesians 2:12).

 

[Jesse]

About "believers" > just because people say they are believers, this does not make it necessarily so (2 Corinthians 13:5, 1 Corinthians 6:17)). To me, it seems that some number of "once saved, always saved" people do not believe how God's love with almighty power cures us of the torments of our personality (1 John 4:18, 2 Timothy 1:7, Philippians 4:6-7).

Ones have said a prayer or gotten baptized or spoken without knowing what words they are saying, but they do not claim Isaiah 55:11 applies for all that God's word says. Isaiah 55:11 guarantees that all God's word "shall accomplish what I please" and "shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."

So, this would mean that every commandment will do all God means, in us and our lives. So, if we are only claiming a few verses for salvation but leaving out all commandments succeeding in us, we can get into a lot of problems. God in us does not only keep us for Heaven, but He succeeds in us to fulfill all of His word, including "in this world", we have in 1 John 4:17. And also He commands how we with Him succeed "in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" (in Philippians 2:14-16) < this comes right after our Apostle Paul says "it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:13).

But correction, then, is included > how Hebrews 12:7-11 clearly says God succeeds in us.

It's a checklist for some people, accept - check, baptized - check, give some money - check, and they never enter into the life changing relationship with Christ. They don't have to though because they've been told they are eternally saved.

It's why this doctrine - and Calvinism - is fallacy.

 

[JLB]

Do you have a verse to support that? Paul was very specific about the gifts he described: imputed righteousness in 5:15 and 17 and eternal life in 6:23. And he said that God's giftS were irrevocable. iow, both imputed righteousness and eternal life are irrevocable. You've not shown otherwise.




In fact, we have the right to become sons of God through faith in Christ. Not transformation.

Jn 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


Certainly not by transformation.

We receive when we believe. That's how we become the sons of God.

When we believe for a while then turn away, we lose what we obtained by believing.

The "it" in the phrase "it is the gift of God" refers back to "have been saved", or a reference to our salvation. That is the gift. Not grace. There are no verses that tell us that grace is a gift.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

The grace is what is "not of yourselves", and therefore is the gift.

Grace and gift are of the same GREEK word.


JLB

 

[reba]

It's a checklist for some people, accept - check, baptized - check, give some money - check, and they never enter into the life changing relationship with Christ. They don't have to though because they've been told they are eternally saved.

It's why this doctrine - and Calvinism - is fallacy.

Slightly off topic ... Jesse you are wise beyond your years.. Keep your head/heart in the Word.. the hard part is growing in that wisdom as you age

 

[gr8grace3]

When we believe for a while then turn away, we lose what we obtained by believing.




8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

The grace is what is "not of yourselves", and therefore is the gift.

Grace and gift are of the same GREEK word.


JLB

Speaking of the Greek~~"Have been saved"~~~Is a periphrastic perfect tense, it is made up of two verbs:
The perfect passive participle of sozo[saved] and the present active indicative of eimi [has been]. The periphrasis is carried over from the Attic Greek and indicates that the writer cannot get all the details into one verbal form. Therefore, he uses two verbal forms to provide a more forceful expression. Nothing is more forceful than the expression of eternal security for the believer as stated in this periphrastic perfect. The periphrasis is one of the most powerful and most forceful of all expressions in any language! In the Greek it is so strong and powerful that it has no loopholes or leaks of any kind. It indicates that we are tied into eternal life forever, simply by the few seconds it takes to believe in the salvation work of Christ on the cross.
The first verb is a perfect passive participle, sesomenoi, meaning salvation. The intensive perfect of sesomenoi emphasizes the present state from a past action. The present tense refers to the fact that the person is saved, while the past action refers to faith in Christ. This indicates the completion of an action at the moment of faith in Jesus Christ with an emphasis on the existing results; in other words, once saved, always saved.

http://gbible.org/index.php?proc=d4d&sf=rea&did=23

 

[chessman]

?

If you are asking me for clarification as to why I asked you those questions, here goes: note, It might be helpful to follow the links back to your reply post, where your error in logic occured.

A member had made a truth claim ("OSAS is true") then listed a Scripture he believed suported that claim (which it does, BTW), then he said why he felt it supported his truth claim. All perfectly reasonable, logical and within what A&T is about. So far, so good.

You disagred, however, with his claim:

NO, OSAS isn't truth,

and provided the following reason for your disagreement:

it's a doctrine of man

To which I asked you two simple questions intended to get you thinking about your evidence/logic for believing his argument isn't valid:

Are you suggesting all man-made doctrines are false?

If you so no to this question, then your reason is not a good/logical reason to reject his argument.
If you say yes (and really mean it), then I'm not sure how you survive.

man has formulated all kinds of doctrines that seem true to life (or death) Some are about the Bible, some are not.
Doctrine:

1. A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.
   
   
2. A rule or principle of law, especially when established by precedent.
   
   For example gravity is a man-made doctrine. A true one! So I asked:

You believe in the doctrine of gravity?

Saying yes means you're smart enough to see why your reason for rejecting his argument is not valid.

Saying no means you're likely to fall off a cliff one day and die.

Which logically proves your reason for rejecting the original claim (OSAS is true) is a very, very dangerous reason to use in life.

 

[Malachi]

For example gravity is a man-made doctrine.

Some observations for clarity:
1. All natural laws (physics, chemistry, biology, etc) were put in place by the Almighty Creator -- they are definitely NOT man-made.
2. The Law of Gravity operates by the power of Christ (Heb 1:3).
3. Natural laws would not be classified as doctrines
4. OSAS is not a doctrine of man but a Gospel truth
5. The simplest proof of OSAS is John 3:16.
6. OSAS is a poor way of expressing this truth. The correct way would be "the eternal security of the believer", not "the perseverance of the saints".
7. Those who reject this truth do not have a clear understanding of salvation.

 

[JLB]

Speaking of the Greek~~"Have been saved"~~~Is a periphrastic perfect tense, it is made up of two verbs:
The perfect passive participle of sozo[saved] and the present active indicative of eimi [has been]. The periphrasis is carried over from the Attic Greek and indicates that the writer cannot get all the details into one verbal form. Therefore, he uses two verbal forms to provide a more forceful expression. Nothing is more forceful than the expression of eternal security for the believer as stated in this periphrastic perfect. The periphrasis is one of the most powerful and most forceful of all expressions in any language! In the Greek it is so strong and powerful that it has no loopholes or leaks of any kind. It indicates that we are tied into eternal life forever, simply by the few seconds it takes to believe in the salvation work of Christ on the cross.
The first verb is a perfect passive participle, sesomenoi, meaning salvation. The intensive perfect of sesomenoi emphasizes the present state from a past action. The present tense refers to the fact that the person is saved, while the past action refers to faith in Christ. This indicates the completion of an action at the moment of faith in Jesus Christ with an emphasis on the existing results; in other words, once saved, always saved.

http://gbible.org/index.php?proc=d4d&sf=rea&did=23

So you ignore the very words that teach us that Grace is not of yourselves, it is a gift?

Grace is obtained through faith.

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard , and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Colossians 1:23


Those who endure to the end, will be saved. Matthew 24:13


JLB

 

[JLB]

Some observations for clarity:
1. All natural laws (physics, chemistry, biology, etc) were put in place by the Almighty Creator -- they are definitely NOT man-made.
2. The Law of Gravity operates by the power of Christ (Heb 1:3).
3. Natural laws would not be classified as doctrines
4. OSAS is not a doctrine of man but a Gospel truth
5. The simplest proof of OSAS is John 3:16.
6. OSAS is a poor way of expressing this truth. The correct way would be "the eternal security of the believer", not "the perseverance of the saints".
7. Those who reject this truth do not have a clear understanding of salvation.

15 That whosoeverbelieveth in him should not perish , but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begottenSon, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , buthave everlasting life. John 3:15-16

Believes in Him is the key.

Believe for a while then stop believing in Him, then you have become an unbeliever.

Let's discuss what the word says about those who no longer believe and are unbelieving.

James says it this way -

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:17-20


Jesus said it this way -

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41-46


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I've read them all and not one says salvation can't be lost.

Aapparently you are admitting here that you do not understand what "irrevocable" means. It means something that won't be taken back. And it is God's gifts that won't be taken back. And Paul defined what God's are: imputed righteousness in Rom 5:15,17 and eternal life in 6:23.

What verse plainly tells you that salvation CAN be lost? There aren't any.