OSAS The Truth

[FreeGrace]

So you ignore the very words that teach us that Grace is not of yourselves, it is a gift?

Rather, I UNDERSTAND what Eph 2:8 is saying. The gift in 2:8 is salvation, not grace, and not faith.

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard , and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Colossians 1:23

What is the "if" connected to? v.23 requires v.22 in order to understand the 'if". Regardless, where in v.23 do you find the words "loss of salvation"? It isn't there.

Those who endure to the end, will be saved. Matthew 24:13
Context, my friend. This is ONLY about the Tribulation.

Why didn't Paul quote this to the jailer who asked him "sirs, what must I do to be SAVED?" Why would Paul say "believe" in the aorist tense, if one must endure to the end in order to be saved?

You see, your view cannot be defended by any Scripture. Every verse you provide has been shown to NOT support your view.

Besides, the gift of eternal life is irrevocable. Which you have not disproven. Which you cannot do since it is God's Word.

 

[FreeGrace]

15 That whosoeverbelieveth in him should not perish , but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begottenSon, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , buthave everlasting life. John 3:15-16

Believes in Him is the key.

Believe for a while then stop believing in Him, then you have become an unbeliever.

No, they become an apostate. One who believed for a while. And you continue to reject the truth that God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

 

[smaller]

And there is no question that this messenger of Satan is irrelevant to the discussion on eternal security. None of them have any relevance to the believer's eternal security. I still have no idea why you've brought it up.

It's directly applicable 'because' the application of OSAS assuredly never extended to the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.

It's one of the more simple observations of theology positions in application.

 

[smaller]

btw, no one was ever "born a vessel of wrath". Rom 9:22 does not say that. Here is what it does say: "What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

All people are born blinded to the Gospel. They are blinded to the Gospel by the 'god of this world' who blinds their minds and remains blinding their minds (2 Cor. 4:4). Therefore the wrath of God abides on every blinded person, again, because the 'god of this world' is present with them in their minds, blinding them.

And yes, the 'god of this world' is fitted to destruction, wrath and perpetual resistance from God and from the 'god of this world' toward God.

It's never been a question of just the person.

A more simple observation is to asses the reality of internal/mind temptations in relationship to the tempter. That shows both the presence and the location of the tempter.

 

[smaller]

No we are not INDWELT by demons or satan. Only that we can fall prey to his devices and need to keep our eyes on Jesus and Him risen.

The entity class termed the devil and his messengers DO have access to the minds and hearts of mankind.

Jesus showed this as a principle here:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

It's only odd when believers don't understand that the tempter tempts internally, in mind. But it is a well established principle in the text. Most discount it by falsely equating it with Hollywood movie types of possession when that really isn't the equivalent comparison whatsoever.

Not every thought is our own.

Believers are the first ones in the line of attacks. That is why we are to be armed with the facts.

 

[smaller]

What did Calvin teach about the two kinds of vessels? One vessel being born elect, chosen and the other being born a vessel of wrath, not chosen, fit only for eternal wrath?

Calvin's premise of total depravity is void of facts, but a very close hit. Mankind is totally depraved because of the influences of Satan and his messengers. Calvin just missed that part when he 'immunized' believers from temptation of the other party and blamed it all on mankind alone. Therefore Calvin was deceived himself.

 

[smaller]

Smaller,

Please site the Scripture verse and word Paul used to convey that He "carried" that messenger.

The verse I refer to states it directly that a messenger (angel) of Satan was in his own flesh.

OSAS could not have possibly been extended to that agent. The exact opposite position would apply to that party that was with Paul.

I know this throws a bit of monkey wrench into the subject. Paul himself was assuredly OSAS. But any person can be REtaken by spiritual blindness induced by the other party in the forms of temptations and deceptions. We can observe this as a simple fact amongst all believers. This doesn't mean that the person/believer is no longer saved.

It means that they have been removed from the spiritual battles by the enemy and have been defeated in this present life. They will however still be saved. The other party, not so much.

 

[smaller]

The messenger is an angel of Satan, no doubt. But it is not indwelling Paul.
1 Corinthians 6:19–20 (NASB95)
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body

"It's far less painful to not acknowledge faulty logic."
(T. Durden/ZeroHedge)

It is even more painful to disregard statements of fact regarding this particular matter.

The body dies because of sin.

Sin is of the DEVIL.

 

[gr8grace3]

So you ignore the very words that teach us that Grace is not of yourselves, it is a gift?

New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
grace~~χάριτι/chariti and Gift~~δῶρον/dōron are not the same Greek words.

And Actually I do say that the Grace is a gift and I believe the Greek language tells us this.

Grace and faith are both in the feminine gender. notice that Semi- colon in the sentence? That is a break in the original language. Right after that Semi-colon we have the near demonstrative pronoun "and that" and it is in the neuter gender,so it does not refer back to grace or faith. "That" would be in the feminine gender if "that" was referring back to grace and faith. "That" refers back to the entire realm of salvation. The Grace,the Faith and salvation is the gift of God.
Here is the catch with the faith concerning all men. Our personal freewill mustard seed of faith does not save us. The Holy Spirit steps in and makes our weak,human freewill faith effectual for salvation(a gift). We do not make it effectual for salvation.2 Cor 6:2 NASB

Grace is obtained through faith.

Like the irrevocable gift of eternal life, you completely ignore the aorist tense of believe in Acts 16:31

 

[gr8grace3]

It is even more painful to disregard statements of fact regarding this particular matter.

The body dies because of sin.

Sin is of the DEVIL.

Ok then. eternal security does not extend to satan or his angels.
Thank you.

 

[smaller]

More simple observations:

Anyone who has been a believer for any length of time in the hunt to eradicate SIN, which is a perpetual and divinely noble endeavor, will eventually come to realize that our battle is internal.

Here in Hebrews we have a picture of this internal contention:

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

There is little use coming before God as a liar by falsely thinking we do not come before Him without NEED to overcome our evil conscience.

It's sourcing it that presents the biggest issue.

No amount of OSAS is going to 'save' the evil conscience.

No amount of performances of any sort are going to eradicate the evil conscience either. The evil conscience just a fact of human existence that we all perpetually contend with.

Source it properly and it's actually much easier to divide from.

That is why we MUST lay every thought open and exposed, and TAKE it into captivity in order to RULE over the evil conscience.

Paul lays out this need here:

2 Corinthians 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

We should not expect our 'evil conscience' to cooperate. Condemnation and damnation to such EVIL thoughts are the only avenue of approach, as anyone who has dealt with their own evil conscience knows.

 

[smaller]

Ok then. eternal security does not extend to satan or his angels.
Thank you.

Yeah, you're gradually getting the picture.

Personal exemption to the fact of having an evil conscience is the first step into deceptions. The second step is to falsely think that evil thoughts are not demonic in nature.

 

[Deborah13]

The entity class termed the devil and his messengers DO have access to the minds and hearts of mankind.

Jesus showed this as a principle here:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

It's only odd when believers don't understand that the tempter tempts internally, in mind. But it is a well established principle in the text. Most discount it by falsely equating it with Hollywood movie types of possession when that really isn't the equivalent comparison whatsoever.

Not every thought is our own.

Believers are the first ones in the line of attacks. That is why we are to be armed with the facts.

Agreed. This is what I said in post 737.
"satan and his demons can still tempt this old man mainly through our thoughts and sometimes the new man doesn't win over the desires of the old man.
The old man is not holy material, only the new man is holy."
I'm not an 'old man' teacher, he was crucified with Christ. But neither am I so foolish as to think that my mind was totally cleansed of garbage that was before new birth or that my mind is suddenly going to only take in holy information.

I have had thoughts pop into my head that set me back on my heels. Whoa! Where did that come from?! A thought that was so totally out of character for me or anything I have ever thought about in reference to myself or my life choices.
BUT then I look at what I have been reading or heard and I know that my mind has stored that information and satan can use that. So he uses what we have already consumed to tempt us or to terrorize us. Fear is a powerful weapon.
Once we realize that he or his friends can cause all types of things, thoughts, circumstances, even physical manifestations, we can be prepared to not have fear and give him a swift kick in the backside.
We are told to put on the full armour of God, for a reason. We are told to renew our minds by the Word of God, for a reason. We are told to mediate on only holy thoughts, for a reason. They are our weapons against the fury darts coming against us.

 

[smaller]

Agreed. This is what I said in post 737.
"satan and his demons can still tempt this old man mainly through our thoughts and sometimes the new man doesn't win over the desires of the old man.
The old man is not holy material, only the new man is holy."
I'm not an 'old man' teacher, he was crucified with Christ. But neither am I so foolish as to think that my mind was totally cleansed of garbage that was before new birth or that my mind is suddenly going to only take in holy information.

I have had thoughts pop into my head that set me back on my heels. Whoa! Where did that come from?! A thought that was so totally out of character for me or anything I have ever thought about in reference to myself or my life choices.
BUT then I look at what I have been reading or heard and I know that my mind has stored that information and satan can use that. So he uses what we have already consumed to tempt us or to terrorize us. Fear is a powerful weapon.
Once we realize that he or his friends can cause all types of things, thoughts, circumstances, even physical manifestations, we can be prepared to not have fear and give him a swift kick in the backside.
We are told to put on the full armour of God, for no reason. We are told to renew our minds by the Word of God, for a reason. We are told to mediate on only holy thoughts, for a reason. They are our weapons against the fury darts coming against us.

Yeah, I think you get the picture pretty well.

It is impossible for OSAS to be extended to the tempting/deceiving parties. That's all I'm saying.

OSAS does apply to every believer. But it does not extend to the evil conscience or the 'cause party' that assuredly works against all of us 'within.'

It is just as useless on the other side of this debate, from the non-OSAS side to think that by any course of actions the evil conscience prompted within by the tempter will be able to be saved either.

That's why the entire space needs a simple upgrade to the believers wetware across the board as the general debate is fruitless.

 

[gr8grace3]

Yeah, you're gradually getting the picture.

Personal exemption to the fact of having an evil conscience is the first step into deceptions. The second step is to falsely think that evil thoughts are not demonic in nature.

Smaller, in my opinion you do not believe in eternal security and are slick with words.

The power of Christ and his abilities to keep the believer safe are not mentioned in any of your posts. His role and functions in the believers life are not mentioned by you. And your lack of understanding of the new creature in Christ makes me think that you have ulterior motives here. This is just my opinion and I ask that you leave me alone.

 

[Deborah13]

Calvin's premise of total depravity is void of facts, but a very close hit. Mankind is totally depraved because of the influences of Satan and his messengers. Calvin just missed that part when he 'immunized' believers from temptation of the other party and blamed it all on mankind alone. Therefore Calvin was deceived himself.

I wasn't addressing Calvin's teaching total depravity.
I was asking what Calvin taught about God creating two kinds of people.
1)One that is doomed to be lost and there is nothing they can do about it, vessel of wrath, God will never call them to be saved.
2)The other kind of person is created by God to be saved, elect, chosen and there is nothing they can do about it, vessel of obedience (?) perseverance (?), they are the only ones that God will draw to Himself.

 

[smaller]

Smaller, in my opinion you do not believe in eternal security and are slick with words.

There is little use in resorting to such tactics. I've never threatened your eternal security. I just don't extend that position to the evil conscience of any believer and I recognize the very simple fact that evil thoughts are demonic in nature and source, and that I'm not exempt from that happening, NOR is anyone else.

The power of Christ and his abilities to keep the believer safe are not mentioned in any of your posts.

Then you haven't been reading very closely. I hold to OSAS for the believer. But that is not ALL that goes on within any believer.

We can fully expect the tempter to resist at every opportunity and that resistance is INTERNAL.

While we as believers always seek to cooperate with God in Christ, simultaneously the evil conscience prompted by the tempter will ALWAYS do the exact opposite.

Paul is quite good at delineating this matter showing that while he desired to do good, as a reality he also found that evil was for a fact, present with him also.

His role and functions in the believers life are not mentioned by you. And your lack of understanding of the new creature in Christ makes me think that you have ulterior motives here. This is just my opinion and I ask that you leave me alone.

Sorry to point out the obvious flaws in OSAS.

There are much better avenues to walk in.

 

[smaller]

I wasn't addressing Calvin's teaching total depravity.
I was asking what Calvin taught about God creating two kinds of people.

I only object to Calvins obvious void of insulating himself or other believers from the evil conscience, which is a demonic working and source. If that party is factored in then Calvin's constructs would actually be much much better. But Calvin, like most believers, practiced personal exemption.

If the 'god of this world' blinds the minds of the unbeliever, then it is not just the MAN that is totally depraved, but the captor IS. Calvin makes little to no account of the other party.

1)One that is doomed to be lost and there is nothing they can do about it, vessel of wrath, God will never call them to be saved.

Calvinism in some camps DO recognize that the god of this world blinds the minds of believers and they rightfully see that as an allowance of Divine Sovereignty.

It really is only a miracle that any of us see or believe, and I account that to Divine Sovereignty as The Source. Without God 'allowing' the blinding party to be pulled back in order for us to see, none of us would see.

2)The other kind of person is created by God to be saved, elect, chosen and there is nothing they can do about it, vessel of obedience (?) perseverance (?), they are the only ones that God will draw to Himself.

Romans 11:25-32 drives a Mack Semi Truck through Calvin's postulations. In Romans 11 Paul shows us that Israel was intentionally blinded by Gods placement of another spirit upon them, one of stupor/slumber so they could not see or hear, in behalf of us Gentiles, and that those who were thusly blinded will be saved anyway, even the enemies of the Gospel. But most believers eyes gloss over that fact when they read it for some odd reason. There is a natural tendency that we all carry that just can't get there. I personally stared at that chain of text for nearly 20 years before I was 'allowed' to get the picture. Til then it was like it was never there. There is a resisting spiritual phenomena that all of us engage with when we encounter the Living Word, and yes, it's VERY real.

 

[Deborah13]

I only object to Calvins obvious void of insulating himself or other believers from the evil conscience, which is a demonic working and source. If that party is factored in then Calvin's constructs would actually be much much better. But Calvin, like most believers, practiced personal exemption.

If the 'god of this world' blinds the minds of the unbeliever, then it is not just the MAN that is totally depraved, but the captor IS. Calvin makes little to no account of the other party.



Calvinism in some camps DO recognize that the god of this world blinds the minds of believers and they rightfully see that as an allowance of Divine Sovereignty.

It really is only a miracle that any of us see or believe, and I account that to Divine Sovereignty as The Source. Without God 'allowing' the blinding party to be pulled back in order for us to see, none of us would see.



Romans 11:25-32 drives a Mack Semi Truck through Calvin's postulations. In Romans 11 Paul shows us that Israel was intentionally blinded by Gods placement of another spirit upon them, one of stupor/slumber so they could not see or hear, in behalf of us Gentiles, and that those who were thusly blinded will be saved anyway, even the enemies of the Gospel. But most believers eyes gloss over that fact when they read it for some odd reason. There is a natural tendency that we all carry that just can't get there. I personally stared at that chain of text for nearly 20 years before I was 'allowed' to get the picture. Til then it was like it was never there. There is a resisting spiritual phenomena that all of us engage with when we encounter the Living Word, and yes, it's VERY real.

Well, I still struggle with those verses. I can't seem to get the clear picture into my mind, I battle with what my heart says about God.
Then there is the scripture that says, "in times past, God winked". God winked? Just what does that mean?

 

[smaller]

Well, I still struggle with those verses. I can't seem to get the clear picture into my mind, I battle with what my heart says about God.

God is very predictable. He is in behalf of good and against evil. Yet He presently tolerates evil. That's a hard issue for any of us to get our heads around. Theodicy is a lifelong study.

"Theodicy (/θiːˈɒdɪsi/), in its most common form, is the attempt to answer the question of why a good God permits the manifestation of evil."

Then there is the scripture that says, "in times past, God winked". God winked? Just what does that mean?

I like how Paul used that on Mars Hill in Acts 17. Paul was saying God was tolerating their "ignorance," but said it in a nice way.