OSAS The Truth

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Regardless of your terms, they still HAVE eternal life, which is irrevocable, and you haven't shown otherwise."

And your reply:

The Root of the OSAS Gospel. Universalism.

No, the root of OSAS is Scripture. Which has been proven.

If you don't have to believe then all people will be saved!

I never even suggested such nonsense. Of course one MUST believe in order to be saved. What I said was, that your act of believing has no power. All power is in God, who does the saving. It is God who saves the believer.

The Truth is you do in fact have to be saved.

Of course.

11

"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe and be saved!

Believing = salvation.

So far, you are correct.

OSAS teaches us that those by the wayside are saved, because apparently accord to FreeGrace we don't even have to believe to be saved.

So sad that you cannot comprehend my post. One DOES have to believe to be saved. But you cannot show the reverse; that if one ceases to believe, they lose salvation. Why do you believe what you cannot find in Scripture?

13

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

The same would hold for the second group, as these only believed for a while.

Not believing, or believing for awhile, then no longer believing, is still rewarded with eternal life, according to Gospel of OSAS.

The reason is so simple; because God's Word SAYS that the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

Do you believe that one who possesses eternal life can end up in the second death???? If so, based on what clear verse?

 

[FreeGrace]

Uh, you. If you are OSAS that makes you a determinist.

That is just plain WRONG. I gave you the definition of determinism. There is nothing about OSAS that is "determinist".

[/QUOTE]I started in the freewill/you can lose your salvation camp. Born into the Lutheran faith, converted to RCC and eventually was born again in May of 1981 after a deeply moving personal experience with Jesus Christ. Spent the first few years after conversion studying basic christian matters from history such as the Trinity and from popular teachers in the charismatic realm. I've also had a 3 decade love of study of allegory/parable/similitude to try to open up those parts of scripture, which is the most difficult arena in the entire realm of studies.[/QUOTE]
That's all very nice.

I didn't even know OSAS existed as a studied position as there were no reformed or Calvinists groups where I lived and there was no internet to engage with then.

After discussion of the subject matter with my home church pastor, a deeply sincere man of God to this day, he was in the freewill/possible loss of salvation camp. His wife, also a Godly woman, was OSAS. It really made me think how 2 people in the same household, both very devoted to Christ could come to such opposite conclusions. I knew I had to study it out for myself so I would know. I picked up an older read on the subject matter from Lewis Sperry Chafer called GRACE. Chafer used to lead the Dallas Theological Seminary, a reformed camp.

Actually, wrong again. Dallas was never in the reformed camp.

It's probably important to note that people who have born again experiences don't know ANYTHING about 'doctrines.' It ALL has to be brought to your attentions and as such it demands studies for determinations of truth. But none of us who were saved via 'experience' with God in Christ came there by knowledge.

Actually, no one is born again via "experience with God". That's just emotional stuff. One is born again when one believes that Jesus Christ provides eternal life to those who trust in Him for it. No other way to be saved.

People of other 'brands' of christianity are never 100% right or wrong. The non-OSAS camps do have legitimate scriptural proof sets for their position as well.

Wrong again!! If that were true, then Scripture is contradictory. How wrong!!

They just don't understand that there are other legitimate avenues of understanding that can handle both sides of this particular subject BETTER.

The non OSAS camp isn't handling the issue of eternal security at all correctly. It isn't about being "better", it's about being either right or wrong.

And that is why we have people like JLB who get pooled in ridiculous circular engagements trying to handle the OSAS proof texts, thinking it makes sense when it doesn't, like Christ doesn't leave us but we leave Him, meaning Christ left. Crazy logic. But to them they think it works.

His largest error is to think that just because when one believes they are saved, that if one ceases to believe, they are unsaved. But he can't provide any verse that actually says what he thinks.

 

[FreeGrace]

A woman who is married, and runs off with another man is called an ADULTRESS!

Way to miss his point. When she CEASES to be married to a man, she IS an ex-wife. But you tried to dodge that one. But trying to distract from Chessman's point is useless. You need to heed his point, because it's valid.

[/QUOTE]A woman whose husband dies is officially UNMARRIED.JLB[/QUOTE]
No. Wrong again. She is officially a WIDOW. Unmarried suggests never married. But it's these points that you are vigorously trying to evade and avoid.

Unbeliever is one who never believed. An unmarried woman is one who never married.

After a woman marries, if she divorces, she is an ex-wife to her ex-husband, and will ALWAYS be his ex-wife.

If her husband dies, she is a widow; one who WAS married, but now isn't because her husband died.

It is easy to see that you are not aware of such terminology.

 

[FreeGrace]

Of course saved people will be eternally secure. That was never in question.

What I addressed is this statement -
"Actually, believing accomplishes nothing. Do you think the act of believing has any power?? Well, it doesn't."

This says that we don't have to believe to be saved, because believing accomplishes nothing.

Obviously you need to get straightend out. My point, which you are evading, is that your act of believing does NOT save you. God saves you. If you don't grasp the meaning of this, please ask.

You continue to evade Rom 11:29 which says that God's gifts are irrevocable. In fact, you are trampling all over this truth.

You cannot demonstrate from Scripture that one who ceases to believe becomes UNsaved. So why do you believe it?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Actually, believing accomplishes nothing. Do you think the act of believing has any power?? Well, it doesn't."

Not sure who came up with this aphorism, but whoever it is, does not know the Scriptures nor the power of God. For God, believing is the only thing that men can do. "The just shall live by faith".

Let's be clear, ok? One's ACT of believing does NOT save that one. God saves that one. Is that clear?

If one's act of believing did the saving, then we'd be saving ourselves by our own acts. That is nonsense.

We are saved BY grace, THROUGH faith. We are not saved by faith. If our act of believing causes salvation, then we've done it ourselves.

 

[Shimshon]

I said this:
"Actually, believing accomplishes nothing. Do you think the act of believing has any power?? Well, it doesn't."

Let's be clear, ok? One's ACT of believing does NOT save that one. God saves that one. Is that clear?

If one's act of believing did the saving, then we'd be saving ourselves by our own acts. That is nonsense.

We are saved BY grace, THROUGH faith. We are not saved by faith. If our act of believing causes salvation, then we've done it ourselves.

Then why did Messiah say this?

John 6
40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”​

 

[JLB]

Rollo,

I have brought this subject up on other threads and have, frankly, been disappointed with the responses from the OSAS side. It seems to me that if you believe the word "justified" in James means "shown, proved or demonstrated to be righteous", then it's possible that a person can prove he is saved by his actions. According to James, this "proof" seems to be as benign as simply feeding a hungry person, out of Christian charity, of course. The VAST majority of Christian converts (from no belief to some form of Christianity) do at least this. In fact, I don't know of one "born again" Christian who has not fed the hungry, and done MUCH more to "show" or "demonstrate" that the faith he has is not a "shown" faith, but a "saving" faith. There have been many examples throughout history of people like these who apostatize, many from very recent history.

My question is, if a "born again" Christian proves his faith is a saving faith by his actions, then apostatizes, doesn't that necessarily prove OSAS is false? The standard line concerning apostates is that "they were never saved in the first place". If James says we can PROVE our "true faith" by our actions, then this excuse is rendered mute.

Well said.

If a person Believes in Christ for Salvation and confesses Him as Lord, then under the threat of death by beheading, from say, a group like ISIS, he renounces his belief in Christ and converts to Islam and confesses Allah as Lord, this person who was a believer has now become an unbeliever.


This is exactly what Jesus meant when He spoke to John, these words - Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." ' Revelation 2:10-11


JLB

 

[smaller]

That is just plain WRONG. I gave you the definition of determinism. There is nothing about OSAS that is "determinist".

It may not appear that way to you and appear that way to me. God has determined to save as indicated by OSAS. No use playing semantics about it.

Actually, wrong again. Dallas was never in the reformed camp.

I was told that by someone. Never examined it. Didn't make any difference to me. The witness of the scriptures with good exposition was sufficient for the task.

I also understand that others may not be led to the same conclusions on this particular subject. Many great theologians and many countless millions more believers went to their graves NON-OSAS. I don't consider the matter vital to salvation.

Actually, no one is born again via "experience with God". That's just emotional stuff. One is born again when one believes that Jesus Christ provides eternal life to those who trust in Him for it. No other way to be saved.

It's your story. Tell it like you want. If you say Jesus doesn't save by people experiencing His Love, you are simply wrong. There are many 'taught' and 'birth' believers as well, so they tend to diminish the reality of 'experience' and never had a light bulb moment with Jesus Christ.

Wrong again!! If that were true, then Scripture is contradictory. How wrong!!

I understand that you think only you or your group are 100% correct. I don't buy that angle from anyone inclusive of myself. We all see ONLY in part. That eliminates 100% right folk.

The non OSAS camp isn't handling the issue of eternal security at all correctly. It isn't about being "better", it's about being either right or wrong.

I reject manipulators even if they are somewhat right because NONE are 100% spot on with anything. Including me. Many only trumpet for their LESS THAN 100% perfect pet positions, not necessarily for Christ.

The non-OSAS camp has LEGITIMATE scripture to prove that one can fall away in this present life. This does not auto-equate to eternal damnation as that is not presented anywhere. Believers waylaid are even handed over to Satan for learning and in order to save their souls. That doesn't mean that Satan is their Savior either.

His largest error is to think that just because when one believes they are saved, that if one ceases to believe, they are unsaved. But he can't provide any verse that actually says what he thinks.

When examining this subject I noted before that the criteria for disbelieving is more of a question of disbelieving WHAT or WHOM? I reject many forms of psuedo presentations of Christ. For example I reject the RCC version of God in Christ on many counts. Does that mean I no longer believe? No. It only means I no longer believe the Pope or his magisterium on some matters. (well, actually a LOT of matters.) But most of us realize that we DO also believe a LOT of what comes from the early orthodox camps and it's just foolish to say otherwise.

So perhaps that's an important distinction? Some OSAS believers even go so far as to say those who are non-OSAS are not believers as well. Maybe that's you?

I've pointed out from the outset that the dialog is a little more interesting and complicated than either camp can handle suitably. I'd say the same things about law vs. grace and freewill vs. determinism.

None of them are as simple as the postulations that are proposed.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"Actually, believing accomplishes nothing. Do you think the act of believing has any power?? Well, it doesn't."

Let's be clear, ok? One's ACT of believing does NOT save that one. God saves that one. Is that clear?

If one's act of believing did the saving, then we'd be saving ourselves by our own acts. That is nonsense.

We are saved BY grace, THROUGH faith. We are not saved by faith. If our act of believing causes salvation, then we've done it ourselves.

No faith, No salvation! Period!

Is that clear?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Smaller said -

It may not appear that way to you and appear that way to me. God has determined to save as indicated by OSAS. No use playing semantics about it.

God has determined to save the person who believes, and believes to the end.

Those who endure to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13


...receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

the reality of the salvation of your soul comes at the end of your faith, not the beginning.

At the beginning of your faith, you have the "substance" of the thing you are hoping for, not the reality of it.

The reality comes at the end of your faith, the salvation that you have been hoping for.



JLB

 

[dadof10]

Well said.

If a person Believes in Christ for Salvation and confesses Him as Lord, then under the threat of death by beheading, from say, a group like ISIS, he renounces his belief in Christ and converts to Islam and confesses Allah as Lord, this person who was a believer has now become an unbeliever.


This is exactly what Jesus meant when He spoke to John, these words - Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." ' Revelation 2:10-11


JLB

What this interpretation of James does is remove the lame excuse that "they were never saved in the first place". This is so laughable that it's a wonder that any serious theologians take it seriously. But....They do...

 

[smaller]

What this interpretation of James does is remove the lame excuse that "they were never saved in the first place". This is so laughable that it's a wonder that any serious theologians take it seriously. But....They do...

Yes, I think we all know that you are from the 'you might be saved if you do works' camp. But you don't really know one way or the other. You hope it works out.

 

[dadof10]

Yes, I think we all know that you are from the 'you might be saved if you do works' camp. But you don't really know one way or the other. You hope it works out.

I do know, but that's not the point of my question here. There is an inconsistency in OSAS thought IF a person holds the standard interpretation of James. Why don't you respond to my point instead of making snarky comments?

 

[smaller]

I do know, but that's not the point of my question here. There is an inconsistency in OSAS thought IF a person holds the standard interpretation of James. Why don't you respond to my point instead of making snarky comments?

My factual recount of your position isn't a snark, but a fact. Belief is a work of God that can't be thwarted.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[dadof10]

My factual recount of your position isn't a snark, but a fact. Belief is a work of God that can't be thwarted.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Then simply explain how a person can apostatize after "showing" that their faith is a "saving faith".

 

[WIP]

I agree that God does the saving but it does seem to me that God doesn't just save individuals at random; that we must take that first step of faith.

 

[chessman]

See post # 981 by Freegrace.

JLB

Then see why he said what he did. his reply was a reply to this inaccurate statement of yours:

The work of Christ and the benefits to us, from His work of the cross is accomplished by believing.

JLB

Which almost sounds like you're implying that our continuing to believe is continuing Christ's work on the cross.

What? The work of Christ is accomplished by our believing?

Umm, wrong. No wonder FreeGrace said what he did.

Christ accomplished His work literally ~2,000 years ago and within the mind of God it was accomplished since before the foundation of the world.

Your belief (or lack thereof) cannot change the work of Christ one bit.

Hebrews 4:3, 10 (LEB) For we who have believed enter into rest, just as he has said,“

And yet these works have been accomplished from the foundation of the world. [way before you or I were born]

For the one who has entered into his rest has also himself rested from his works, just as God did from his own works. ​

Did you catch that? The one who has entered into His rest (i.e. the "we who have believed" from verse 3 and are thusly saved) has done so JUST AS God has rested. Wow! That's quite a comparison.

Has God un-rested Himself from creation within His seventh day rest? Umm, no.

So I ask (myself); can a believer who has already entered His rest by believing in Christ (that is believing in Christ's work) then hypothetically later 'un-rest' (un-save) himself? Umm, no.

That is if Hebrew's 4:3-10 is making an accurate "JUST AS" comparison, he can't.

Else, his rest (the person's rest/salvation) is not really JUST AS His rest (God's rest) now is it?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Then simply explain how a person can apostatize after "showing" that their faith is a "saving faith".

Dear dadof10,
It's good to hear from you again.
I agree with smaller, his use of John 6:29 is legitimate.
Rather than confront his rebuttal, you change the subject.
So I'll answer for you, apostasy is best seen and explained with Judas Iscariot.
I'll debate all day that he was never saved.

And please dadof10, it's not right to jump in after 1000 posts and excuse someone of being snark.

 

[JLB]

What this interpretation of James does is remove the lame excuse that "they were never saved in the first place". This is so laughable that it's a wonder that any serious theologians take it seriously. But....They do...

Yes!

Those who promote OSAS have really come up with some great new excuses though.

The latest one is -

A person who believes for a while, then no longer believes is not an unbeliever but an ex believer.

I guess an ex believer is different that an unbeliever.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Then see why he said what he did. his reply was a reply to this inaccurate statement of yours:


Which almost sounds like you're implying that our continuing to believe is continuing Christ's work on the cross.

What? The work of Christ is accomplished by our believing?

Umm, wrong. No wonder FreeGrace said what he did.

Christ accomplished His work literally ~2,000 years ago and within the mind of God it was accomplished since before the foundation of the world.

Your belief (or lack thereof) cannot change the work of Christ one bit.

Hebrews 4:3, 10 (LEB) For we who have believed enter into rest, just as he has said,“

And yet these works have been accomplished from the foundation of the world. [way before you or I were born]

For the one who has entered into his rest has also himself rested from his works, just as God did from his own works. ​

Did you catch that? The one who has entered into His rest (i.e. the "we who have believed" from verse 3 and are thusly saved) has done so JUST AS God has rested. Wow! That's quite a comparison.

Has God un-rested Himself from creation within His seventh day rest? Umm, no.

So I ask (myself); can a believer who has already entered His rest by believing in Christ (that is believing in Christ's work) then hypothetically later 'un-rest' (un-save) himself? Umm, no.

That is if Hebrew's 4:3-10 is making an accurate "JUST AS" comparison, he can't.

Else, his rest (the person's rest/salvation) is not really JUST AS His rest (God's rest) now is it?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

Based on the above mentioned scripture, Please explain to this forum, how a person can be forgiven his sins if he no longer believes in Christ, as the Lamb who takes away sin?

A person gets saved and believes in Christ for salvation for a few years, then decides to be a Buddhist.

How does this ex Christian now get his sins forgiven?


JLB