OSAS The Truth

[chessman]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

Based on the above mentioned scripture, Please explain to this forum, how a person can be forgiven his sins if he no longer believes in Christ, as the Lamb who takes away sin?

...
How does this ex Christian now get his sins forgiven?

JLB

Based on the above Scripture, I couldn't find the ex Christian person you asked about even mentioned there. Could you repost the above mentioned verse, only this time underlining the ex-Christian (or no longer believing) person that's mentioned in the verse, please? It would help me out lot there.

Otherwise, I'm afraid I can't use the verse to answer your question and I'll just be left thinking you're reading ex-Christian into a verse that doesn't actually say anything about an ex-Christian or a person no longer believing in Christ.

 

[JLB]

Based on the above Scripture, I couldn't find the ex Christian person you asked about even mentioned there. Could you repost the above mentioned verse, only this time underlining the ex-Christian (or no longer believing) person that's mentioned in the verse, please? It would help me out lot there.

Otherwise, I'm afraid I can't use the verse to answer your question and I'll just be left thinking you're reading ex-Christian into a verse that doesn't actually say anything about an ex-Christian or a person no longer believing in Christ.

One more time


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

Based on the above mentioned scripture, Please explain to this forum, how a person can be forgiven his sins if he no longer believes in Christ, as the Lamb who takes away sin?


Example:

A person gets saved and believes in Christ for salvation for a few years, then decides to be a Buddhist.

How does this ex Christian now get his sins forgiven?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Irrevocable? In context your verse says this about being irrevocable.

Romans 11
25Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers:a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​

Who's gifts are irrevocable? Yisrael's. What will Messiah do? Who is the covenant made with 'that takes away Yisrael's sins'?

I see your quite adjusted to using verse out of context.

Nonsense. Paul clearly and specifically defined who the "called" are and what the "gifts" are. Before he wrote 11:29.

Please explain exactly what gifts were given to Israel? Their election?? Where in Scripture is the election of the nation of Israel ever called a "gift"?

Romans 6
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Context

John 3:15 ESV
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

• John 3:16 ESV
  [For God So Loved the World] "For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

• John 3:36 ESV
  Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

• John 5:24 ESV
  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

• John 6:47 ESV
  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

You say faith comes by God alone. So God creates puppets who either have the fuel(means) to succeed or not?

I never said faith comes by God alone. That's what Calvinists say. Which creates a puppet theology, for sure.

Let's see what the bible say about where faith comes from.

Romans 10
13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Eph 1
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
​

Faith comes by hearing the words of God. Yet, we can even believe the words of those who witnessed the words of God too.

John 17
20"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
​

So faith comes by the human function of hearing the word spoken from heaven, be it by Messiah himself, an angel, or those who witnessed these words spoken. Faith is not miraclously bestowed and maintained by God in our lives. We are responsible to 'listen' and 'repent'. Why else did Jesus continually say 'you are forgiven your sins, no go sin no more (repent)'?

Why do you think I believe that faith is from God? Faith in Christ is a choice. We either believe His promise or we don't.

Don't forget to cite all the verses that describe Israel's election as a gift. ;)

 

[FreeGrace]

Please share the scripture that states "God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable".

I'm happy to do it again. Please pay attention this time.

Rom 1:5,6,7 and 8:28,30 describe saved people as the "called". Rom 5:15,17 describes Christ's imputed righteousness as a gift and 6:23 describes eternal life as a gift.

Rom 11:29 says that God's calling (of believers) and gifts (imputed righteousness and eternal life) are irrevocable.

Now, since you keep rejecting my explanation, the burden is on you to prove that 11:29 is about Israel. Therefore, you must demonstrate from Scripture that Israel's election is described as a calling (good luck with that one) and that their election is described as a gift (good luck with that one, too).

I'll be waiting for your analysis.

Just to help you out, I'll point out that "calling" and "election" are totally separate issues. The first one is an invitation, and the second one is a choosing. No even related in meaning.

Now, good luck hunting.

ps: I don't believe in luck, but you're going to need a boatload in order to find any support for your theory.

 

[FreeGrace]

What is the difference between an unbeliever and an ex-believer? The unbeliever is better off in the end than the ex-believer.

Except that you don't understand what that means. It refers to one's life. The unbeliever isn't being judged during their life on earth, while the disobedient and unfaithful believer IS. Heb 12:5 says so.

For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Your unsubstantiated view has it worse in eternity for an ex-believer than an unbeliever. Yet you claim they end up in the same place. Have you ever really thought out your logic on this? It isn't making sense. At any level.

 

[JLB]

Except that you don't understand what that means. It refers to one's life. The unbeliever isn't being judged during their life on earth, while the disobedient and unfaithful believer IS. Heb 12:5 says so.


Your unsubstantiated view has it worse in eternity for an ex-believer than an unbeliever. Yet you claim they end up in the same place. Have you ever really thought out your logic on this? It isn't making sense. At any level.

Here is what the word of God clearly states -

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21

• For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, = an unsaved person.

• than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. = an ex-believer

JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm happy to do it again. Please pay attention this time.

Rom 1:5,6,7 and 8:28,30 describe saved people as the "called". Rom 5:15,17 describes Christ's imputed righteousness as a gift and 6:23 describes eternal life as a gift.

Rom 11:29 says that God's calling (of believers) and gifts (imputed righteousness and eternal life) are irrevocable.

Now, since you keep rejecting my explanation, the burden is on you to prove that 11:29 is about Israel. Therefore, you must demonstrate from Scripture that Israel's election is described as a calling (good luck with that one) and that their election is described as a gift (good luck with that one, too).

I'll be waiting for your analysis.

Just to help you out, I'll point out that "calling" and "election" are totally separate issues. The first one is an invitation, and the second one is a choosing. No even related in meaning.

Now, good luck hunting.

ps: I don't believe in luck, but you're going to need a boatload in order to find any support for your theory.

Any post's that are your opinion, "tagged" with a scripture reference will be ignored.


Example: - Rom 11:29 says that God's calling (of believers) and gifts (imputed righteousness and eternal life) are irrevocable.


All you did is state your opinion and posted a scripture "tag" [Rom 11:29] without ever writing out the scripture and discussing what the scripture actually says.


For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

This scripture does not mention imputed righteousness and eternal life.


Furthermore if you back up to verse 23, you will find this statement by Paul -

And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:23


Believing is the key to salvation.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


...lest they should believe and be saved

Believe = saved


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Believe for a while = saved for awhile.


20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21


...they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.


...the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.


...worse for them than the beginning.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is what the word of God clearly states -

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21

• For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, = an unsaved person.

• than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. = an ex-believer

JLB

Your analysis is seriously flawed. An ex-believer still has eternal life and Christ's imputed righteousness, which I've proven. You've provided no refutation of my view.

 

[JLB]

Your analysis is seriously flawed. An ex-believer still has eternal life and Christ's imputed righteousness, which I've proven. You've provided no refutation of my view.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21

• For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, = an unsaved person.

• than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. = an ex-believer

..they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.


...the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.


...worse for them than the beginning.


Where in this phrase - ...the latter end is worse for them than the beginning, do you see an ex believer still has eternal life?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Any post's that are your opinion, "tagged" with a scripture reference will be ignored.

"loose translation": I will ignore any Scripture that refutes my position.

Example: - Rom 11:29 says that God's calling (of believers) and gifts (imputed righteousness and eternal life) are irrevocable.

All you did is state your opinion and posted a scripture "tag" [Rom 11:29] without ever writing out the scripture and discussing what the scripture actually says.

That is exactly what I did; discuss what the Scriture actually says. And I proved it with CONTEXTUAL verses within the SAME EPISTLE using the SAME WORDS as found in 11:29. Where is your "analysis" of 11:29?

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

This scripture does not mention imputed righteousness and eternal life.

I gave the verses that DO: Rom 5:15,17 and 6:23. Which you continue to ignore, or worse, reject.

Furthermore if you back up to verse 23, you will find this statement by Paul -

And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:23

How does this relate to God's calling or gifts? It doesn't.

Believing is the key to salvation.

Of course. And salvation is a gift. And it isn't revocable.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


...lest they should believe and be saved

Believe = saved

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Believe for a while = saved for awhile.

Totally out of context for Rom 11:29, for one. And, secondly, you are only assuming that believing for a while means or equals being saved for a while. You have FAILED to prove your assumption with Scripture.

...they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

...the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

...worse for them than the beginning.JLB

I've already explained what this means. Just repeating yourself doesn't prove anything, nor provide support for your view.

All you do is give verses that you think support your assumption; no explanations. I've provided an explanation that demonstrates your misunderstanding of the verses in question.

If the gifts and calling in Rom 11:29 refer to Israel, please specify exactly where in Scripture is Israel described as the "called", and what gifts, specifically, are described as being Israel's.

If you can't do that, you have no point.

 

[FreeGrace]

Where in this phrase - ...the latter end is worse for them than the beginning, do you see an ex believer still has eternal life?

The legitimate question is this: where in that phrase do you see that an ex believer doesn't have eternal life?

I'm tired of your endless assumptions. Which are faulty.

 

[JLB]

"loose translation": I will ignore any Scripture that refutes my position.


That is exactly what I did; discuss what the Scriture actually says. And I proved it with CONTEXTUAL verses within the SAME EPISTLE using the SAME WORDS as found in 11:29. Where is your "analysis" of 11:29?


I gave the verses that DO: Rom 5:15,17 and 6:23. Which you continue to ignore, or worse, reject.


How does this relate to God's calling or gifts? It doesn't.


Of course. And salvation is a gift. And it isn't revocable.


Totally out of context for Rom 11:29, for one. And, secondly, you are only assuming that believing for a while means or equals being saved for a while. You have FAILED to prove your assumption with Scripture.


I've already explained what this means. Just repeating yourself doesn't prove anything, nor provide support for your view.

All you do is give verses that you think support your assumption; no explanations. I've provided an explanation that demonstrates your misunderstanding of the verses in question.

If the gifts and calling in Rom 11:29 refer to Israel, please specify exactly where in Scripture is Israel described as the "called", and what gifts, specifically, are described as being Israel's.

If you can't do that, you have no point.

When your "explanation" opposes what the scripture says, then you should rethink your "explanation.

If the gifts and calling in Rom 11:29 refer to Israel, please specify exactly where in Scripture is Israel described as the "called", and what gifts, specifically, are described as being Israel's.

This scripture does not mention imputed righteousness and eternal life.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29


You "added" the irrevocable gift of eternal life, to this verse.

That makes "your explanation" completely invalid.

Of course. And salvation is a gift. And it isn't revocable.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8

Gift - Strong's Number: 1435 - Doron
a gift, present

1. gifts offered in expression of honour
   1. of sacrifices and other gifts offered to God
   2. of money cast into the treasury for the purposes of the temple and for the support of the poor

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29


Gifts - Strong's Number: 5486 - Charisma

grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit


These verses do not share the same Greek word for gift.

You, on the other hand, have acted as if they are the same Greek word.


You have misrepresented the word of God in favor of your pet doctrine, and have not taken into account the whole counsel of God that all the scriptures teach.


No where in God's word does it say "God gives us the irrevocable gift of eternal life".



JLB

 

[smaller]

Some are devils. So what? The enemy has sown weeds among the wheat. So no devil will be saved. Are all men devils? No. But we know with assurance that the Pharisees who came out to question Jesus were vipers and sons of the Serpent. We know the Jews who had believed in Jesus and who now wanted to kill him were devils. Jesus said it. "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44

you: people are devils

me: devils are devils

I think we've delineated sufficiently

 

[smaller]

Then simply explain how a person can apostatize after "showing" that their faith is a "saving faith".

Read my post #96 in the thread. Scripture shows us as it pertains to Paul that it was not just Paul in his flesh. There was also a messenger of Satan, that would be a wicked evil angel, in his flesh.

Paul was saved, OSAS.

The messenger of Satan, uh, the exact opposite.

Who reigns over who is really the only question.

As it pertains to OSAS two entirely different and opposed positions would apply to Paul and the messenger of Satan.

Was Paul entirely OSAS? No. In his flesh there was an entity that was not Paul as well who was/is/remains eternally damned and whom God opposed/opposes.

Now go sort out the chips.

 

[smaller]

God has determined to save the person who believes, and believes to the end.
JLB

So in your view if a person believes once they are saved, they are saved does it really make any difference if they don't believe like you?

 

[smaller]

I agree that God does the saving but it does seem to me that God doesn't just save individuals at random; that we must take that first step of faith.

No one would believe unless God allows them to believe. Until then the god of this world blinds their minds to the Gospel.

People are saved only because God allows them to believe.

God drew out and raised an entire nation of people called Israelites and blinded them to Jesus, on purpose, with Divine Purposes.

Every person of Israel over the age of 20 who came out of Egypt except for 2 people, even after witnessing Divine Deliverance and a massive number of miracles, still died in the desert because of what?

Unbelief.

Does that mean then that God is going to burn them all in eternal fires of endless hell?

Never. To even think that requires Moses to be in hell.

 

[Deborah13]

One more time


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

Based on the above mentioned scripture, Please explain to this forum, how a person can be forgiven his sins if he no longer believes in Christ, as the Lamb who takes away sin?


Example:

A person gets saved and believes in Christ for salvation for a few years, then decides to be a Buddhist.

How does this ex Christian now get his sins forgiven?


JLB

It is the covering of the Blood of Christ that both justifies and sanctifies. That shed blood covers all your sin.

These verses were not spoken to the believers in the group who had recognized they had sinned against God, repented, and received the true Gospel.
John begins speaking to the believers in the group in John 2.

 

[Shimshon]

Nonsense. Paul clearly and specifically defined who the "called" are and what the "gifts" are. Before he wrote 11:29.

Yes, the text is staring you in the face. Care to post the verse Paul clearl and specifically defined who the called are?

Please explain exactly what gifts were given to Israel? Their election?? Where in Scripture is the election of the nation of Israel ever called a "gift"?

There is a hint in the very text you called nonsense.

The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins
​

Clue, who is the Deliverer? Where does he come from? What does he do?

Hint; Messiah.

Messiah came from Zion and will banish ungodliness from Jacob and will make a covenant with Yisrael that takes our sins away. What gifts? It is a tree of life for those who grasp it, happy are they who hold it fast. Length of days is on it's right and glory on it's left. It's ways are pleasantness and it's roads are peace.

​

 

[Shimshon]

Don't forget to cite all the verses that describe Israel's election as a gift. ;)

Sure, open your mind and say it with me...... inheritance.

A people more numerous than the stars and the sand, a land flowing with milk and honey, a Word (Torah) spoken from heaven an instruction that brings life, a Messiah that redeems us from sins (the life promised Yisrael through the Torah). What gifts has God given Yisrael?? Have you not read the bible?

Genesis 15
1 Some time later the word of ADONAI came to Avram in a vision: "Don't be afraid, Avram. I am your protector; your reward will be very great." 2 Avram replied, "ADONAI, God, what good will your gifts be to me if I continue childless; and Eli'ezer from Dammesek inherits my possessions? 3 You haven't given me a child," Avram continued, "so someone born in my house will be my heir." 4 But the word of ADONAI came to him: "This man will not be your heir. No, your heir will be a child from your own body." 5 Then he brought him outside and said, "Look up at the sky, and count the stars - if you can count them! Your descendants will be that many!" 6 He believed in ADONAI, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Genesis 22:17 CJB
I will most certainly bless you; and I will most certainly increase your descendants to as many as there are stars in the sky or grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants will possess the cities of their enemies, 18 and by your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed - because you obeyed my order."

Exodus 6:7 CJB
I will take you as my people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am ADONAI your God, who freed you from the forced labor of the Egyptians.

Leviticus 26:12 CJB
but I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people.

Deuteronomy 4:20 CJB
No, you ADONAI has taken and brought out of the smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of inheritance for him, as you are today.

Deuteronomy 9:29 CJB
But in fact they are your people, your inheritance, whom you brought out by your great power and your outstretched arm.'

Exodus 6:8 CJB
I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Avraham, Yitz'chak and Ya'akov - I will give it to you as your inheritance. I am ADONAI.'"

Deuteronomy 4:38 CJB
in order to drive out ahead of you nations greater and stronger than you, so that he could bring you in and give you their land as an inheritance, as is the case today;

Deuteronomy 15:4 CJB
In spite of this, there will be no one needy among you; because ADONAI will certainly bless you in the land which ADONAI your God is giving you as an inheritance to possess -

Deuteronomy 18:2 CJB
They will have no inheritance with their brothers, because ADONAI is their inheritance - as he has said to them.

Deuteronomy 19:10 CJB
so that innocent blood will not be shed in the land ADONAI your God is giving you as an inheritance, and thus blood guilt be on you.

Deuteronomy 19:14 CJB
"You are not to move your neighbor's boundary marker from the place where people put it long ago, in the inheritance soon to be yours in the land ADONAI your God is giving you to possess.

Deuteronomy 6:17 CJB
17 Observe diligently the mitzvot of ADONAI your God, and his instructions and laws which he has given you. 18 You are to do what is right and good in the sight of ADONAI, so that things will go well with you, and you will enter and possess the good land ADONAI swore to your ancestors, 19 expelling all your enemies ahead of you, as ADONAI said.
20 "Some day your child will ask you, 'What is the meaning of the instructions, laws and rulings which ADONAI our God has laid down for you?' 21 Then you will tell your child, 'We were slaves to Pharaoh in Egypt, and ADONAI brought us out of Egypt with a strong hand. 22 ADONAI worked great and terrible signs and wonders against Egypt, Pharaoh and all his household, before our very eyes. 23 He brought us out from there in order to bring us to the land he had sworn to our ancestors that he would give us. 24 ADONAI ordered us to observe all these laws, to fear ADONAI our God, always for our own good, so that he might keep us alive, as we are today.
25 It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to obey all these mitzvot before ADONAI our God, just as he ordered us to do.'"​

So we see that God swore to gift Abraham that he would make his phyisical seed more numerous than the stars and sand in response to Abraham asking about his 'inheritance'. As well as giving Abraham's inheritance the land. He also gave Yisrael his instructions in love so that by observing all it says, namely that the righteous will live by faith, it would bring us life, in the from of our savior and redeemer Yeshua the Messiah, the holy one of Yisrael, the savior of Yisrael and the world.

What gifts did he give us? Your salvation for one. Salvation is of the Jews, have you not heard?

John 4
21 Yeshua said, "Lady, believe me, the time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Yerushalayim. 22 You people don't know what you are worshipping; we worship what we do know, because salvation comes from the Jews. 23 But the time is coming -- indeed, it's here now -- when the true worshippers will worship the Father spiritually and truly, for these are the kind of people the Father wants worshipping him. 24 God is spirit; and worshippers must worship him spiritually and truly." 25 The woman replied, "I know that Mashiach is coming" (that is, "the one who has been anointed"). "When he comes, he will tell us everything." 26 Yeshua said to her, "I, the person speaking to you, am he."

John 1:45 CJB
Philip found Natan'el and told him, "We've found the one that Moshe wrote about in the Torah, also the Prophets -- it's Yeshua Ben-Yosef from Natzeret!"​

Without the blessings of God upon Yisrael the nations of the world would never know salvation. Thank God for the gifts he gave to Yisrael! They are your salvation, He is your salvation. The Jesus you attempt to worship and understand is the ultimate gift of God to the world. He came through Yisrael, who was blessed with a promise to forever be the people of God who dwell in a physical land, observing all the words that come out of the mouth of God, made clean and blameless as Messiah lives and rules from within us. And the world is blessed by this.

Ezekiel 37
28 Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”​

 

[smaller]

Yes!

Those who promote OSAS have really come up with some great new excuses though.

The latest one is -

A person who believes for a while, then no longer believes is not an unbeliever but an ex believer.

I guess an ex believer is different that an unbeliever.


JLB

You've consistently failed to provide what criteria constitutes belief. I've given several examples of non-belief for myself. I don't believe some of what the Roman catholics present about God in Christ. Does that make me an unbeliever? In their eyes, yes. I just reject their version of God in Christ on several counts because it is a conscription of sinning men. And those sinning religious men went down a really long dark evil, really evil tube called the Inquisition. Probably the worst example of christianity on the face of the planet In the name of their version of God in Christ they committed horrific atrocities. I wouldn't believe them or their system on that basis alone.

I am in UNbelief when it comes to God in Christ and the Roman catholic dictates of what that mandates.

And more than likely so are you and most who post here. Are we unbelievers?

It's always a question of what is it that a person DOESN'T believe more than a question of UNbelief.

A lot of people reject the christian church "social life" altogether. That doesn't mean they don't believe. Most of them just don't believe your version or any countless numbers of other versions of God in Christ. And they see them for what they really are. Some sinners dictates.

I can't tell you how many 'believers' I've encountered in my life who's sole purpose was to damn me to burn alive forever for not believing 'like them.' I lost count after my first few years of belief.

We're it only for them I'd have quit believing a long time ago. They are evil in heart beyond any doubt to me. Yet I still will see them as saved. Sorely deceived? Indeed. Yet I believe Gods Mercy and Grace will overcome ALL such ill will born between us all 'in the Name of God in Christ.'

I couldn't get along with anyone, yet alone love them as myself, if I had to believe 'like you.' Demanding that believers who don't believe 'like you' are going to burn alive forever.

When I witness of God in Christ I tell people they already KNOW Jesus, they just don't know it.

How can that be they ask?

Here is where I draw them ALL in and it's very effective:

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

How many people do you want to toss out of heaven Mr. Pharisee? (not addressing you JLB, but readers in general)

I believe that God IS Love and that GOD Himself LOVES and LIVES in those who LOVE.

Does that make me an unbeliever? In most of your eyes that would be YES because I didn't apply your particular forms of Jesus paint to the equation.

Jesus is NOT against Love. He IS Love.