OSAS The Truth

[FreeGrace]

Then why did Messiah say this?

John 6
40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”​

1. Because He meant it.
2. Because all who believe receive eternal life, which is a gift (Rom 6:23) which is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Any other reasons?

 

[FreeGrace]

If a person Believes in Christ for Salvation and confesses Him as Lord, then under the threat of death by beheading, from say, a group like ISIS, he renounces his belief in Christ and converts to Islam and confesses Allah as Lord, this person who was a believer has now become an unbeliever.

I wish you had paid some attention to the previous posts. Such a one is now an EX-believer, not an UN-believer.

A woman who gets a divorce from her husband is now an EX-wife, not, as you think, an UN-wife.

And a woman who's husband dies is NOT an UN-wife, but a widow.

This is exactly what Jesus meant when He spoke to John, these words - Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

This is an eternal reward, not salvation.

10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." ' Revelation 2:10-11JLB

So you think the gift of eternal life is revocable, huh. But you'd be quite wrong. There is NOTHING in those 2 verses (or any other verses) that says that anyone can lose salvation. Z.E.R.O.

 

[FreeGrace]

It may not appear that way to you and appear that way to me. God has determined to save as indicated by OSAS. No use playing semantics about it.

God doesn't determine to save as "indicated" by anthing. He is pleased to save those who believe - 1 Cor 1:21. btw, God determines to save all believers. That isn't the meaning of determinism. Please review the definition.

If you say Jesus doesn't save by people experiencing His Love, you are simply wrong.

That should be quite easy to prove, if I'm wrong. So, what verse tells us that loving Jesus brings salvation/eternal life?

I understand that you think only you or your group are 100% correct. I don't buy that angle from anyone inclusive of myself. We all see ONLY in part. That eliminates 100% right folk.

Since I never came close to saying or implying this, your comment is irrelevant and meaningless.

The non-OSAS camp has LEGITIMATE scripture to prove that one can fall away in this present life.

Since you believe OSAS, it is clear that you think the Bible is totally contradictory. Sad.

So perhaps that's an important distinction? Some OSAS believers even go so far as to say those who are non-OSAS are not believers as well. Maybe that's you?

Nope. Once one puts their trust in Christ for eternal life, they have it eternally. Regardless of what occurs in the future, per Rom 8:38.

 

[FreeGrace]

No faith, No salvation! Period!

Is that clear?JLB

Sure. And I agree totally. But you CANNOT provide ANY Scripture that teaches that one can lose their salvation. All you have are verses that you "believe" mean loss of salvation, but there are NONE that clearly and unambiguously say it.

OTOH, I have given you THE verse that refutes your view. God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

Irrefutable.

 

[FreeGrace]

My factual recount of your position isn't a snark, but a fact. Belief is a work of God that can't be thwarted.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Seems that your view is quite reformed. If you read the previous verse, you would know that the crowd asked Jesus what works the Father requires. Jesus did NOT suggest or say that the action of believing is a work of God.

God requires faith. That was Jesus' point.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes!

Those who promote OSAS have really come up with some great new excuses though.

The latest one is -

A person who believes for a while, then no longer believes is not an unbeliever but an ex believer.

You were given an excellent example of WHY they are called that.

I guess an ex believer is different that an unbeliever. JLB

Exactly.

Just as a wife is different than an EX-wife. No one calls an EX-wife an UN-wife. But that's the kind of "logic" you are trying to use. A woman no longer married to the one she married is an EX-wife. Or a FORMER wife.

So, a believer who ceases to believe is a FORMER believer, or an EX-believer.

An UN-believer is one who NEVER believed.

But these obvious terms refutes your position and removes your argument. So you have to reject them.

 

[FreeGrace]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

Based on the above mentioned scripture, Please explain to this forum, how a person can be forgiven his sins if he no longer believes in Christ, as the Lamb who takes away sin?

A person gets saved and believes in Christ for salvation for a few years, then decides to be a Buddhist.

How does this ex Christian now get his sins forgiven?


JLB

All sins were paid for at the cross. When a believer ceases to believe, his sins aren't being forgiven. But Acts 10:43 says that forgiveness is based on faith. That isn't ongoing faith, but WHEN one believes.

Further, God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable. Face it. Embrace it.

 

[Gregg]

Gregg, by the exchange your having I take it you hold to OSAS? My question to you is why does revelation mention churches that need to repent or their lampstand will be removed?

Ephesus had fallen from their first love (Rev 2:4), and from this they were given the imperative to repent, else the LORD "will remove your lampstand from its place" (Rev 2:5). No other church was told that their lampstand would be removed from its place. I think it is interesting that the LORD called the Church at Ephesus "your lampstand" rather than "My lampstand" (Rev 2:5).

But specific to your question, I believe salvation is individual and not collective. The Lord's call for repentance was not aimed at unbelief but towards their falling from their first love. The state of salvation for their individual members did not change, only the state of their love. Falling out of love does not equate with falling out of grace or salvation. Perhaps their failing love was becoming so widespread that their entire Church would be rendered ineffective, even counter productive.

Five out of seven churches are mentioned as doing things against the Lord. Each time the message is 'repent'. IF NOT death. Each church was in need of repentance. Each church was told that if it did not repent it would be removed.

Jezebel's children were to be killed with death (Rev 2:23). The Gk. words used here for "kill" and "death" are not used elsewhere in the 7 letters in the Rev. Christ mentions His coming like a thief, and His coming to them [to many individuals]; but if death is implied in those instances . . . is He talking about physical death, spiritual death, or something else?

Logic dictates then that members of the churches would loose eternal life IF they did NOT repent. Where is the eternal security doctrine in these verses?

The LORD mentions the "one overcoming" in each of the 7 letters. When a man believes in the LORD, he has at that moment overcome. "Overcoming" is a present active participle implying a present continuing state of being, that of their salvation. The rewards for overcoming mentioned in the 7 letters apply to all believers. They are in order of the letters:

life in the presence of God.
life eternal having been resurrected in Christ, unaffected by a second death.
hidden manna [knowing the true Arc of the Covenant, Jesus], a white stone [proclaimed innocent].
rule with the Son of God, in truth.
clothed with God's righteousness, name written in the book of life, known by God.
permanent member of Christ's body, of God's temple, a citizen of God's city, named [owned] by God.
to sit with Christ.
​

The believer is given these things upon overcoming, upon believing into Christ. These things are realized immediately.

​

 

[Shimshon]

1. Because He meant it.
2. Because all who believe receive eternal life, which is a gift (Rom 6:23) which is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Any other reasons?

Irrevocable? In context your verse says this about being irrevocable.

Romans 11
25Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers:a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​

Who's gifts are irrevocable? Yisrael's. What will Messiah do? Who is the covenant made with 'that takes away Yisrael's sins'?

I see your quite adjusted to using verse out of context.

Romans 6
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Context

John 3:15 ESV
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

• John 3:16 ESV
  [For God So Loved the World] "For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

• John 3:36 ESV
  Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

• John 5:24 ESV
  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

• John 6:47 ESV
  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

You say faith comes by God alone. So God creates puppets who either have the fuel(means) to succeed or not? Let's see what the bible say about where faith comes from.

Romans 10
13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Eph 1
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
​

Faith comes by hearing the words of God. Yet, we can even believe the words of those who witnessed the words of God too.

John 17
20"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
​

So faith comes by the human function of hearing the word spoken from heaven, be it by Messiah himself, an angel, or those who witnessed these words spoken. Faith is not miraclously bestowed and maintained by God in our lives. We are responsible to 'listen' and 'repent'. Why else did Jesus continually say 'you are forgiven your sins, no go sin no more (repent)'?

 

[Shimshon]

The believer is given these things upon overcoming, upon believing into Christ. These things are realized immediately.

Thank you for your response, I appreciate it. But I don't think we are understanding each other. You said the call to repent was not in regards to salvation. I disagree. Each church was told they have something that is 'against' the Lord, and each church was told to repent of it or they will be rejected.

Ephesus - If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
Pergamum - war against them with the sword of my mouth.
Thyatira - Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works,23and I will strike her children dead.
Sardis - If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.
Laodicea - So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

 

[MarkT]

An unfortunate oversight on your part as prior noted.

You have to have an appreciation of the term: One of you is a devil. Had Jesus said Judas explicitly you'd have a point. And even noting it regarding Judas as John did, it remains that 'one' of Judas was a devil, and that would be SATAN.

I consider it adequate baiting on the subject by the construct by the scripture to 'allow' people to stumble into that dead theology hole, that people are devils, and to completely IGNORE the fact we know, that Satan 'entered' Judas.

Satan is not a devil. Satan is 'the' devil.

Jesus chose the twelve, knowing Judas was a devil. He said as much - 'one of you is a devil.' He wasn't talking about Satan. He was not calling Satan a devil (Satan is the father). He was talking about Judas. I'm not ignoring the fact Satan put it into his heart to betray Jesus. I'm saying Judas was by nature a devil, disposed to doing Satan's desire.

The Bible doesn't say Judas was just some poor schmo, an innocent man chosen by God to betray Jesus. No. Judas was a devil. He was raised by God to betray Jesus.

 

[JLB]

All sins were paid for at the cross. When a believer ceases to believe, his sins aren't being forgiven. But Acts 10:43 says that forgiveness is based on faith. That isn't ongoing faith, but WHEN one believes.

Further, God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable. Face it. Embrace it.

Please share the scripture that states "God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable".

 

[JLB]

You were given an excellent example of WHY they are called that.


Exactly.

Just as a wife is different than an EX-wife. No one calls an EX-wife an UN-wife. But that's the kind of "logic" you are trying to use. A woman no longer married to the one she married is an EX-wife. Or a FORMER wife.

So, a believer who ceases to believe is a FORMER believer, or an EX-believer.

An UN-believer is one who NEVER believed.

But these obvious terms refutes your position and removes your argument. So you have to reject them.

What is the difference between an unbeliever and an ex-believer? The unbeliever is better off in the end than the ex-believer.


For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21



JLB

 

[dadof10]

Dear dadof10,
It's good to hear from you again.
I agree with smaller, his use of John 6:29 is legitimate.
Rather than confront his rebuttal, you change the subject.
So I'll answer for you, apostasy is best seen and explained with Judas Iscariot.
I'll debate all day that he was never saved.

And please dadof10, it's not right to jump in after 1000 posts and excuse someone of being snark.

So lemme see if I've got this straight. I ask you a question, someone else throws up a verse that is totally off topic, I ask that person to answer the question posed, then you ignore the question and accuse me of "changing the subject" because I won't address the off topic verse? Lol...Okay. If you can't answer the question about how James relates to OSAS, just say so...

 

[dadof10]

Yes!

Those who promote OSAS have really come up with some great new excuses though.

The latest one is -

A person who believes for a while, then no longer believes is not an unbeliever but an ex believer.

I guess an ex believer is different that an unbeliever.


JLB

Is there such a thing as an "exbeliever" to a OSAS person? Doesn't "ex" anything assume the thing was, then isn't anymore?

 

[dadof10]

I wish you had paid some attention to the previous posts. Such a one is now an EX-believer, not an UN-believer.

A woman who gets a divorce from her husband is now an EX-wife, not, as you think, an UN-wife.

And a woman who's husband dies is NOT an UN-wife, but a widow.


This is an eternal reward, not salvation.


So you think the gift of eternal life is revocable, huh. But you'd be quite wrong. There is NOTHING in those 2 verses (or any other verses) that says that anyone can lose salvation. Z.E.R.O.

Doesn't "ex" anything mean that something was, then isn't anymore? If a person is an "ex believer" doesn't that mean he was a believer, then isn't one anymore?

 

[MarkT]

There is a very long list of theological weaknesses when making people devils. The instant you do that for example you eliminate every such person from the possibility of salvation. Jesus didn't come to save devils, period. No devil will be saved.

No one starts out as a devil and is then converted into a child of God. To do that means demonic/satanic salvation. A position found nowhere in the text.

In addition there is a very large issue about ALL of Israel who are stated in the scriptures to be Gods children. Judas was Israelite. This [your false sight] makes children of God into devils.

The list of issues can go on at length. Part of the reason it's a difficult subject matter is because 'devils' DO have access to people's flesh, inclusive of their MIND through the avenue of internal THEFT/SIN of Word sown and of temptation, which is of the Tempter, Satan, and his minions. It's an important principle to understand that we do not war against people, as they are not devils. We do ALL still war against the other parties, who are the captors of every person who is not saved and even within our selves when the struggles with temptation are put upon us by the Tempter.

Therefore a turning against that power and a division from that power of Satan is mandatory for salvation.

People are not our enemies, but that is not the only party in play with anyone inclusive of ourselves when we are forced into dealing with internal temptation of the Tempter.

Being tempted of the Tempter makes you or I no more of a devil than it made Judas in his own slaveship to same.

Yet God used Judas AND the Tempter to His Own Ends to fulfill the fate of God in the flesh, Jesus Christ. Therefore THEY BOTH served God to fulfill the scriptures regarding Jesus.

The betrayal of Judas was written of long before Judas showed up in the flesh to betray him. Judas had NO CHOICE but to have Satan enter him to fulfill the scriptures.

He had no more choice in that matter than any of have when we are born into spiritual death, blinded by the god of this world in our own minds.

Every person who is saved is saved by being turned from that power of Satan that previously blinded their minds and hearts.

Some are devils. So what? The enemy has sown weeds among the wheat. So no devil will be saved. Are all men devils? No. But we know with assurance that the Pharisees who came out to question Jesus were vipers and sons of the Serpent. We know the Jews who had believed in Jesus and who now wanted to kill him were devils. Jesus said it. "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44

 

[LovethroughDove]

I think this scripture will be VERY CLEAR.

John 15:5-8 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

Jesus is the "Word" and he has given his "Word". He gives himself to believers............what a believer does with him/his word is up to the believer.

 

[JLB]

I think this scripture will be VERY CLEAR.

John 15:5-8 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

Jesus is the "Word" and he has given his "Word". He gives himself to believers............what a believer does with him/his word is up to the believer.

:amen

 

[Gregg]

Thank you for your response, I appreciate it. But I don't think we are understanding each other. You said the call to repent was not in regards to salvation. I disagree. Each church was told they have something that is 'against' the Lord, and each church was told to repent of it or they will be rejected.

The call to repentance at Ephesus was not in regards to their salvation, but to return to their first love; the love that they had for the LORD when they were first saved.

The LORD will not reject those who have believed into Him [those that are born from above, genuine members of Christ's body].

Ephesus - If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Regarding Ephesus: remove from its place . . . perhaps to a less prominent place. But this is not about a loss of salvation. Remove lampstand, not individual members out of the body of Christ.

Pergamum - war against them with the sword of my mouth.

They have people who hold to the teaching of Balaam and the Nicolaitans. Pergamum was allowing false teachers and leaders to co-exist among their fellowship. Balaam taught Balak by example how to defile Israel. Balaam and the Nicolaitans were not Christians, but were allowed to fellowship among the Christians and lead them astray.

The LORD did not say 'I have people there who . . .' But the LORD did say He will war against those who teach things of Balaam and the Nicolaitans; not war against the true Church at Pergamum, but "against those . . ."​

Thyatira - Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works,23and I will strike her children dead.

Jezebel - bed of sickness
her children - death [physical, or spiritual?]
men who commit adultery with her suffer intensely

How do any of these equate to loss of salvation? The righteous may be punished, but not forsaken.​

Sardis - If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.

Not all were dead, as there are others clothed in Christ's righteousness, those born from above.

Laodicea - So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

Yes, spit out, never having been taken into His body. Never saved. The unsaved can not lose a salvation that they never possessed.​