OSAS The Truth

[smaller]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

My observation to you is that none of us can say we have no sin as a present tense matter. Sin indwells our flesh, as Paul duly noted.

Paul also said he had evil present with him and that he DID evil. (Romans 7) and that in his flesh he still served the law of sin. Few understand the reality and power of the O.T. LAW in relationship to showing and proving us all sinners.

So I'd suggest you only miss the obvious and inescapable reality Paul showed us all with your intended forumla.

In many ways scripture has provided us quick methods to sort out liars from truth tellers.

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
a person who turns from the truth, is likened to a sinner... he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.

Again, all of us are turned from the power of Satan upon belief. But that contention/contender never ceases his act

...from the truth means they were walking in the truth and turned away. Someone who turns them back to the truth saves this sinner from eternal death.

JLB

The first victory of Satan with any believer is getting them to LIE about being sinners.

The second victory is when they are then turned into hypocrites, double dealing the subject matter.

Who then has the problem? It is only the hypocrite who has been captured by lying about being a sinner, and prompted so by Satans devices, culminating in hatred of other sinners.

God has put us all in a very real position of weakness in this present life.

Light has been commanded to shine from the darkness. Not only with the Sun in the darkness of space, but of His Life in the midst of our own respective darkness.

 

[smaller]

A believer ostensibly believes his word. Otherwise he is not a believer.

A believer in what? You think it's mandatory belief that a christian MUST believe God might burn them alive forever in order to be saved?

I'd suggest that such are merely servants of saving their inexcusable HIDE.

smaller

Why make stuff up? 2 Cor. 12:7 isn't some new theology. Paul said he received a thorn in his flesh, a messenger of Satan in his flesh, that made him weak (no doubt from the countless beatings he received in prison and suffering without food and exposure) This was a constant reminder, a messenger of Satan in his flesh, lest he should boast of his strength. So he said, "If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness." and "I will not boast except of my weaknesses."

Paul flat out shows us that a messenger of Satan and temptation were in his flesh. What is it that you miss in that? You want to say Paul is a devil the same way you painted Judas?

This is consistent with what Jesus taught that we would suffer as he suffered.

Indeed. The suffering of ALL of us being planted in disobedience, weakness, corruption, partial sight, dishonor and the struggle between the flesh INFLUENCED by the god of this world, that would be SATAN, and the Spirit, does put us all in dire weakness.

Which is exactly where God takes all of us sooner or later when we come clean and understand that we ALL bear an evil conscience before Him.

It is at the point when HONESTY overtakes us that we are led fully into the facts of our own weaknesses and stop being enslaved hypocrites.

The churches have only sickened themselves by damning each others to possible hell while they trumpet that only they have 100% truth.

Fact is we are ALL in waiting for Perfection. That is, the Revealing of Christ IN US.

 

[JLB]

A believer in what? You think it's mandatory belief that a christian MUST believe God might burn them alive forever in order to be saved?

I'd suggest that such are merely servants of saving their inexcusable HIDE.



Paul flat out shows us that a messenger of Satan and temptation were in his flesh. What is it that you miss in that? You want to say Paul is a devil the same way you painted Judas?



Indeed. The suffering of ALL of us being planted in disobedience, weakness, corruption, partial sight, dishonor and the struggle between the flesh INFLUENCED by the god of this world, that would be SATAN, and the Spirit, does put us all in dire weakness.

Which is exactly where God takes all of us sooner or later when we come clean and understand that we ALL bear an evil conscience before Him.

It is at the point when HONESTY overtakes us that we are led fully into the facts of our own weaknesses and stop being enslaved hypocrites.

The churches have only sickened themselves by damning each others to possible hell while they trumpet that only they have 100% truth.

Fact is we are ALL in waiting for Perfection. That is, the Revealing of Christ IN US.

I really don't understand what your saying and how it applies to the scripture as it relates to this thread.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

James is speaking to Christians.

James is addressing Christian Brethren who have wandered from the truth.

a person who turns from the truth, is likened to a sinner... as it is written - he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.

Saving a sinner from death refers to eternal death, not physical death.


JLB

...from the truth means they were walking in the truth and turned away. Someone who turns them back to the truth saves this sinner from eternal death.

 

[smaller]

I really don't understand what your saying and how it applies to the scripture as it relates to this thread.

I like to point out the scriptural factual conditions of Paul in these matters as a measure for all of our mutual conditions.

Your intended basis is to damn sinners for sin. That has already been sufficiently done for all of us:

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That part of the equation is done and settled and NONE escape that conclusion or condemnation of their OWN sin in the flesh after salvation.

It might however appear that some think they DO escape the conclusions of facts regarding sin.

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

James is speaking to Christians.

James (3) also said this:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.


15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

James is addressing Christian Brethren who have wandered from the truth.

a person who turns from the truth, is likened to a sinner... as it is written - he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.

Saving a sinner from death refers to eternal death, not physical death.

...from the truth means they were walking in the truth and turned away. Someone who turns them back to the truth saves this sinner from eternal death.

What truth is it that you are commanding believers must believe in order to save themselves? That we MUST believe God might burn us alive forever for sin or sinning? Is this your mandatory belief?

If you suppose to believe in a Savior who CAN'T save, I'd suggest that sight is at basic odds with A Savior.

Your alternative is to believe that believers save themselves. And that they are their own saviors.

God CAN'T SAVE unless YOU save yourself? Is this your good news?

Seems rather misdirected.

 

[Gregg]

If you have a scripture that you would like to discuss, then please write out the scripture, and let's discuss it, and what it actually says.


There are many wonderful promises from God to us concerning eternal life, for He is merciful and loving and desires that all should come to repentance, and be saved.

Perhaps one's doctrine doesn't agree with their personal experience. Let's look at what scripture says about justification regarding the believer, not what you say "it actually says."

"Then being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom 5:1 LITV).

"Much more then, being justified now by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Rom 5:9 LITV).

"that being justified by His grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life" (Tit 3:7 LITV).​

The verb "justified" in these verses are all aorist passive participles. What does that indicate to you?

 

[JLB]

I like to point out the scriptural factual conditions of Paul in these matters as a measure for all of our mutual conditions.

Your intended basis is to damn sinners for sin. That has already been sufficiently done for all of us:

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That part of the equation is done and settled and NONE escape that conclusion or condemnation of their OWN sin in the flesh after salvation.

It might however appear that some think they DO escape the conclusions of facts regarding sin.



James (3) also said this:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.


15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.


What truth is it that you are commanding believers must believe in order to save themselves? That we MUST believe God might burn us alive forever for sin or sinning? Is this your mandatory belief?

If you suppose to believe in a Savior who CAN'T save, I'd suggest that sight is at basic odds with A Savior.

Your alternative is to believe that believers save themselves. And that they are their own saviors.

God CAN'T SAVE unless YOU save yourself? Is this your good news?

Seems rather misdirected.

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.


Which one of the following bullet point statements from James 5:19-20 do you disagree with?

• James is speaking to Christians.

• James is addressing Christian Brethren who have wandered [turned] from the truth.

• a person who turns from the truth, is likened to a sinner... as it is written - he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.

• Saving a sinner from death refers to eternal death, not physical death.

• ...from the truth means they were walking in the truth and turned away.

JLB

 

[smaller]

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Which one of the following bullet point statements from James 5:19-20 do you disagree with?

• James is speaking to Christians.

• James is addressing Christian Brethren who have wandered [turned] from the truth.

• a person who turns from the truth, is likened to a sinner... as it is written - he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.

• Saving a sinner from death refers to eternal death, not physical death.

• ...from the truth means they were walking in the truth and turned away.

JLB

You've still failed to provide or describe your 'continuing belief' criteria.

 

[MarkT]

Paul flat out shows us that a messenger of Satan and temptation were in his flesh. What is it that you miss in that? You want to say Paul is a devil the same way you painted Judas?

For heaven sakes. He doesn't say any anything about temptation. Paul was beaten. The beatings he suffered left him in pain (a thorn in his flesh) as a result of the beatings he received at their hands.

The authorities who beat him are Satan (the devil is the ruler of this world). When Paul says Satan he means the authorities, as he said in another letter, 'deliver this man up to Satan to be burned' 1 Cor. 5:5, and 'whom I have delivered to Satan.' 1 Tim. 1:20

The messenger is the weakness (perhaps the beatings left him crippled). This was a reminder of the beatings he received at the hands of the authorities in his flesh - a message from the authorities ie. Satan. Now he continues - this weakness keeps him from being too elated by the abundance of revelations of the Lord he receives. Hard to be elated when you are in constant pain. And he asked the Lord to remove it. And the Lord said, "my power is made perfect in weakness."

 

[gr8grace3]

Perhaps one's doctrine doesn't agree with their personal experience. Let's look at what scripture says about justification regarding the believer, not what you say "it actually says."

"Then being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom 5:1 LITV).

"Much more then, being justified now by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Rom 5:9 LITV).

"that being justified by His grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life" (Tit 3:7 LITV).​

The verb "justified" in these verses are all aorist passive participles. What does that indicate to you?

It actually indicates that there is no debate. Paul even goes a little farther in Rom 5:9 with his logic.

"Much more then, being justified(aorist,passive) now by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Rom 5:9 LITV).

"Much more then" is Paul introducing "a fortiori." If Christ did the "much more then" of justifying us through His death, He is completely capable of doing "the less then" thing of saving us from His wrath.

The a fortiori system of logical argument is this: If someone can do the more difficult, then it follows with stronger reason that that same person can do the easier thing. Or, if someone can do the greater, then they can do the less.

 

[smaller]

For heaven sakes. He doesn't say any anything about temptation.

Oh?

Galatians 4:14
And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Paul was beaten. The beatings he suffered left him in pain (a thorn in his flesh) as a result of the beatings he received at their hands.

The authorities who beat him are Satan (the devil is the ruler of this world). When Paul says Satan he means the authorities, as he said in another letter, 'deliver this man up to Satan to be burned' 1 Cor. 5:5, and 'whom I have delivered to Satan.' 1 Tim. 1:20

Yes, I think we've discovered that in your version of theology there is no Satan but people.

The messenger is the weakness (perhaps the beatings left him crippled).

Satan is physical weakness too huh?

Always amazes me to see believers disregard Satan or his messengers in a myriad of ways, trying to make Satan or his angels into anything but evil wicked thieving lying deceiving messengers.

Satan is people, illness and physical weakness?

Apparently in such schemes, when Satan tempted Jesus, there was a person there doing the tempting? Or perhaps an illness or Jesus physical weakness?

And the god of this world that blinds minds to the Gospel really is nothing but a physical malady?

smh

 

[JLB]

You've still failed to provide or describe your 'continuing belief' criteria.

Ok, let's try it this way.

Which one of the following bullet point statements do you agree with?

Which one of the following bullet point statements do you disagree with?


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

• James is speaking to Christians. Agree or Disagree?

• James is addressing Christian Brethren who have wandered [turned] from the truth. Agree or Disagree?

• a person who turns from the truth, is likened to a sinner... as it is written - he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death. Agree or Disagree?

• Saving a sinner from death refers to eternal death, not physical death. Agree or Disagree?

• ...from the truth means they were walking in the truth and turned away. Agree or Disagree?

JLB

 

[smaller]

Ok, let's try it this way.

Which one of the following bullet point statements do you agree with?

Which one of the following bullet point statements do you disagree with?

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

• James is speaking to Christians. Agree or Disagree?

• James is addressing Christian Brethren who have wandered [turned] from the truth. Agree or Disagree?

• a person who turns from the truth, is likened to a sinner... as it is written - he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death. Agree or Disagree?

• Saving a sinner from death refers to eternal death, not physical death. Agree or Disagree?

• ...from the truth means they were walking in the truth and turned away. Agree or Disagree?

JLB

Bullet points 1 and 2, definite disagree.

All scripture pertains to every man, not just christians. All scripture also provokes and invokes the active resistance of Satan and his messengers as well.

It's not as simple as James or any scripture only speaking to christians whatsoever, as that is assuredly not the case. The application of scripture has a much broader reach, even to resisting parties that are engaged to resist.

Bullet point 3 still doesn't address the reality that all have sin and sin is of the devil.

Bullet point 4 doesn't do the messenger of Satan in the flesh of Paul a single iota of good, nor will it apply in that direction. That messenger of Satan remained under wrath and condemnation. There is no way to avoid that conclusion for that party in Paul's flesh. So again it's just a limited sight of the subject matter on your part.

Bullet point 5 provides my continuing question to you of defining 'the truth' that you are referring to.

Still waiting for you to define your 'continuing belief or truth' criteria.

So far your presentation has revolved around sin being the measure of non-salvation, or moreso, that the condition of sinlessness must be attained to be saved. Or 'sin less' perhaps?

I've shown that in Paul's own flesh he bore a messenger of Satan that is slated for eternal damnation regardless of what Paul did or didn't do. There is no avoiding that conclusion for the messenger of Satan based on any performance or lack of same by Paul.

 

[JLB]

Which one of the following bullet point statements do you agree with?

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

• James is speaking to Christians. Agree or Disagree?

• James is addressing Christian Brethren who have wandered [turned] from the truth. Agree or Disagree?

• a person who turns from the truth, is likened to a sinner... as it is written - he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death. Agree or Disagree?

• Saving a sinner from death refers to eternal death, not physical death. Agree or Disagree?

• ...from the truth means they were walking in the truth and turned away. Agree or Disagree?

smaller said -

Bullet points 1 and 2, definite disagree.

By saying "Brethren", and "among you" James is addressing Christian brethren, and especially adding the phrase "wandered from the truth", it is crystal clear that James is addressing brothers who were walking in the truth, and have departed from or turned from the truth.

How could you possibly think James is addressing unsaved sinners in his letter, that uses these words and phrases?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Are you born from above?

If so, after being born from above, have you at any time either lost or given up your salvation?

Good question for JLB. Also, having been born from above, does he think a believer aborts himself by ceasing to believe?

 

[FreeGrace]

If you have a scripture that you would like to discuss, then please write out the scripture, and let's discuss it, and what it actually says.

Why haven't you done that with me? I showed that the Greek word for "gift" is the SAME WORD in both Rom 6:23 where eternal life is described as a gift, and in Rom 11:29 where God's gifts are irrevocable. You haven't discussed the significance of this. Why? You ask others to do what you yourself have not, and will not do.

How is that honorable?

 

[FreeGrace]

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Brethren - Christians

among you - Christians

from the truth - heretic

a person who turns from the truth, is likened to a sinner... he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.JLB

Please look up the word for "soul" here. It was the common way to speak of physical life at that time in history. Every 1st Century Greek speaker would understand this verse in James to be speaking about saving from physical death. Certainly not eternal death.

Your position clearly vascillates between ceasing to believe or continuing in sin as how one loses salvation. Is it both? Or which one, actually?

More importantly, why haven't you provided ANY Scripture that says either thing?

Most importantly, why do you believe what you cannot find clearly stated in Scripture?

I believe that God's gift, eternal life (charisma) is irrevocable. I've given the verses that prove that.

Why do you reject what the Bible very clearly states?

 

[smaller]

How could you possibly think James is addressing unsaved sinners in his letter, that uses these words and phrases?

JLB

All scripture is God Breathed and applies to every man and ALSO makes/forces every devil to resist.

You have merely employed a non-applicable limited sense of the deployment of Gods Words.

Where any Apostle uttered their God Inspired words, resistance is guaranteed to follow.

 

[JLB]

Please look up the word for "soul" here. It was the common way to speak of physical life at that time in history. Every 1st Century Greek speaker would understand this verse in James to be speaking about saving from physical death. Certainly not eternal death.

Your position clearly vascillates between ceasing to believe or continuing in sin as how one loses salvation. Is it both? Or which one, actually?

More importantly, why haven't you provided ANY Scripture that says either thing?

Most importantly, why do you believe what you cannot find clearly stated in Scripture?

I believe that God's gift, eternal life (charisma) is irrevocable. I've given the verses that prove that.

Why do you reject what the Bible very clearly states?

let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.

Its self explanatory. Everyone knows what the fate of sinners are, as their soul will be sent to the lake of fire.

Death of a sinner = an eternity of torment in the lake of fire.


Case closed! Your "explanation" is not needed.

The plain words are clear for all who desire the truth.

...he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death...


The context is clear!


JLB

 

[JLB]

All scripture is God Breathed and applies to every man and ALSO makes/forces every devil to resist.

You have merely employed a non-applicable limited sense of the deployment of Gods Words.

Where any Apostle uttered their God Inspired words, resistance is guaranteed to follow.

... let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.


This phrase can't be explained away.

By saying "Brethren", and "among you" James is addressing Christian brethren, and especially adding the phrase "wandered from the truth", it is crystal clear that James is addressing brothers who were walking in the truth, and have departed from or turned from the truth.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Saul being struck down on the road to Damascus always immediately comes to mind.

The real question to ask is, IF God in Christ can do that, THEN why doesn't that happen to more or to all? Obviously God directly imposed His Will on Saul without getting Sauls permission.

Paul's experience is interesting, but all Jesus did without Saul's permission was to present Himself to Paul. He didn't make Paul believe in Him. At least there is nothing in Scripture that indicates that.

When Jesus made His appearance to Paul, Paul still had a choice; reject the vision or accept it as true. He did the later.

The Pharisees were presented many times with the miracles of Jesus. They too had a choice; they chose to reject the miracles as being from God.

We know this from Jesus' appeal to them here:
John 10:37-39
37“If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” 39Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp. NASB

Yet the others standing with him were unaffected to the same cause, as far as we know. How weird is that?

They chose the former. Like the Pharisees did.

It's a very on topic observation because Saul is a great example of the surety of Gods call and election through direct intervention. Wipes the freewill guesswork off the map imho.

Yes, that would be just your opinion. Paul made a choice to accept the vision. The Pharisees by and large rejected Jesus' miracles.

We really don't know why some are led into belief/faith and some not.

No one is 'led into faith'. That smacks of reformed theology, in which God chooses who will believe, which is not substantiated in Scripture.

And any who doubt this will find this fact out soon enough, after they leave here and find regrets that they did not extend LOVE they DIVINELY RECEIVED with all of it's glorious Divine firey fervor and passion.

Less rewards will be found.

Seems the "loss of salvation" camp doesn't really have a place in their theology for rewards.