OSAS The Truth

[Doulos Iesou]

"It does not matter how you live your life".
This is a statement made by non-OSAS people trying to quote what OSAS believes.
It is not true.

You are right, this is the error of easy believism, which is a type of OSAS. However, most OSAS hold to Perseverance of the Saints, in that true Christians will endure to the end, those who fall away were never true Christians.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

This thread is about OSAS, and all Scripture has truth to bear on the matter not just one verse.

If they're discussing OSAS, then you have no grounds for saying they are off-topic. You didn't communicate that this was the only verse that could be discussed in the OP, but rather titled your thread OSAS the Truth.

I'm just saying that non-OSAS people tend to talk about everything else, but don't have a adequate answer to 1 Peter:23.
You included.

 

[jonahmano]

All believers see only in part and as through darkness in this present life. All believers remain factual sinners by degrees of thought, word and deed, AFTER salvation.

Sin is not the measure that will be used to qualify or be disqualified. Christ has already slated every sin to be left in the dust of our bodies when we depart here. We individually will hang on our own respective allegorical crosses with every bit of judgment to our own sins left hanging therein and God will use every last bit of that unto final judgments for ALL of us.

But the outcome will be A PERFECT result that can only reside in His Hands Alone, showing His Superiority and Preeminence over all of it.

Evil, sin and death will prove to be GODS SERVANTS by reasons of His Superior Power.

Again you are wrong here. What made us God afar from us? Disobedience. Adam lost his relationship with God because he disobeyed God. Now what did Christ do. He brought us near to God by paying for our sins once for all (Past. Present & Future) . So if any chance for believers to lose their salvation will be their disobedience.

 

[Gary]

The question of "when" doesn't make sense when there is no time, not necessarily a specific date.

Let me see if I can make this easier for you.

Is an individuals name put in the Book of Life:

1. Before they are born?

2. At the moment of their birth?

3. Sometime during the individuals lifetime?

4. After they physically die?

.

 

[reba]

"It does not matter how you live your life".
This is a statement made by non-OSAS people trying to quote what OSAS believes.
It is not true.

That is how i read it... How can i not see it that way... are we then judged on our works?

Please understand , the words i am posting are the circle thinking that goes on in my mind/spirit... I do not mean my words to be accusatory to any one..

 

[smaller]

That depends on your translation of the Genitive case for this text, whether it is Objective Genitive or Subjective Genitive. Is it Jesus' faithfulness, or our faith in Jesus? That's a discussion for another time, but even if it is "faithfulness of Jesus," I don't think that means that he believes for us, but rather salvation was earned for us by his faithfulness to the Father.

I will maintain that faith is a heavenly matter that does not originate with mankind, but is a granted matter.

If a man perceives, he does so by Divine Granting. And if a man does not see, that is also by Gods Dictates.

God may give the gift of faith, but he does not believe for us.

Faith is a gift of Grace from above. It is never taken back. It may be covered up again on a temporary basis. Anyone who has believed long enough knows how hard it is to shake Christ. He never ceases to be with the faithful regardless of how hard or far they fall because it is HE who is faithful.

I'm not saying that God is love,

Fortunately we have a scripture that states the fact. Whether you believe it or not is another subject.

but you haven't really clearly defined what constitutes a Christian.

Go read Acts 10:35 and then tell me if those people knew Christ.

Then you can come back and tell me who's measures you want to impose? We all know that there are a multitude of measures used to keep people OUT of heaven that is promoted by an equally large number of modern day Pharisees.

Can you do this, as what you stated earlier sounded like heresy.

I FULLY accept every premise of the Nicene creed as a credible measure of sound doctrinal positions. But you also understand that MOST people who are initially saved don't have a clue about a single premise therein. So that CAN NOT be the measure.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Let me see if I can make this easier for you.

Is an individuals name put in the Book of Life:

1. Before they are born?

2. At the moment of their birth?

3. Sometime during the individuals lifetime?

4. After they physically die?

.

This book is with God, who is outside time and space.

He knows all things at once, and doesn't learn new things, such as learning whether or not a person will endure and then writes their name in the book.

Hence, your argument about chronology is groundless.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

That is how i read it... How can i not see it that way... are we then judged on our works?

Most people who hold to OSAS and actually know their stuff, will articulate it that it is necessary that we persevere, and that it is certain that a true Christian will persevere in faith. Not that they will do enough works, but rather that God will preserve them through faith.

 

[Gary]

This book is with God, who is outside time and space.

He knows all things at once, and doesn't learn new things, such as learning whether or not a person will endure and then writes their name in the book.

Hence, your argument about chronology is groundless.

It's ok to say "I don't know".
.

 

[reba]

Yeah we love finger pointing at other sinners don't we? Particularly the fallen pastors. They are really good targets to point at about their sins. As if any of us are sinless.

lol to every finger pointer.

and you are doing the same... lol round and round we go...

 

[Jesse]

I'm just saying that non-OSAS people tend to talk about everything else, but don't have a adequate answer to 1 Peter:23.
You included.

You have ignored all the verses that show you the opposite of what you believe, but those are not addressed by you. You just continue to claim we haven't shown anything to counteract what is in the OP.

It's not a very good defense to avoid your opposition.

 

[jonahmano]

Most people who hold to OSAS and actually know their stuff, will articulate it that it is necessary that we persevere, and that it is certain that a true Christian will persevere in faith. Not that they will do enough works, but rather that God will preserve them through faith.

All believers of Christ OSAS & non OSAS do believe in their hearts it's not right with God living a sinful life.

 

[Gary]

I'm just saying that non-OSAS people tend to talk about everything else, but don't have a adequate answer to 1 Peter:23.
You included.

Here's your answer.

1 Peter 1
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,
23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,


Born again of incorruptible seed because they obeyed the truth.
.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I will maintain that faith is a heavenly matter that does not originate with mankind, but is a granted matter.

Define faith please.

If a man perceives, he does so by Divine Granting. And if a man does not see, that is also by Gods Dictates.

I agree that the Holy Spirit enables one to have faith, but I do not agree that God is actively going around ensuring people don't see. He blinded Israel as a punishment for their disobedience and rejection of the Messiah, but he does not do this today.

He wishes that everyone would repent and be saved, not wishing that any should perish.

Faith is a gift of Grace from above. It is never taken back.

What do you say about those who once had faith, and seemed very genuine, but later fell away? Or the texts in Scripture that talk about people departing the faith?

It may be covered up again on a temporary basis. Anyone who has believed long enough knows how hard it is to shake Christ. He never ceases to be with the faithful regardless of how hard or far they fall because it is HE who is faithful.

Yet, many many Christians have forsaken the faith.

Fortunately we have a scripture that states the fact. Whether you believe it or not is another subject.

Meant to say "isn't". Certainly God is love.

Go read Acts 10:35 and then tell me if those people knew Christ.

I think God is merciful based on some people's knowledge, but if they have been presented the Gospel and reject it, then their fate is sealed.

Then you can come back and tell me who's measures you want to impose? We all know that there are a multitude of measures used to keep people OUT of heaven that is promoted by an equally large number of modern day Pharisees.

The point is that there is only way path to the Father, and that is through faith in Jesus Christ. God is merciful when it comes to ignorance, such as children who died before they could be accountable, or people who never heard the gospel. However, if one has heard the gospel, and reject it, then there is nothing they could do to change that.

I FULLY accept every premise of the Nicene creed as a credible measure of sound doctrinal positions. But you also understand that MOST people who are initially saved don't have a clue about a single premise therein. So that CAN NOT be the measure.

Ignorance is not the same as willful heresy.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

All believers of Christ OSAS & non OSAS do believe in their hearts it's not right with God living a sinful life.

I would say that there are some who believe OSAS who think there is such thing as the Carnal Christian. These people probably aren't around here though.

 

[jonahmano]

Here's your answer.

1 Peter 1
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,
23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,


Born again of incorruptible seed because they obeyed the truth.
.

 

[jonahmano]

I would say that there are some who believe OSAS who think there is such thing as the Carnal Christian. These people probably aren't around here though.

 

[smaller]

Define faith please.

Sure. Right after you define God I'll jump right in.

I might hope that some see the futility in trying to box and can theology constructs. It's an elusive divisive undertaking.

We do know several facts about faith. The main fact that I 'like' is that faith works through love. Therefore, where I see LOVE I also see FAITH.

You may not like that sight, but there is an obvious connection there isn't there?

I agree that the Holy Spirit enables one to have faith,

Well great. At least we have that off our list and AGREE...;)

but I do not agree that God is actively going around ensuring people don't see.

You are probably missing that point entirely. God is not dealing with any of us as 'just and only' believers.

ALL of our sin is factually of the devil and GOD does actively engage in a negative way both to that working and it's workers.

I point to Paul's statements of facts in these matters as shown in brief in my post number 96 in this thread. It was not just Paul in the lump of Paul, but Paul and A MESSENGER OF SATAN whom God not only put upon Paul, but RESISTED in Paul. This fact is also the cause of our own tribulations and WHY christians are the first in line for DIVINE ADVERSE JUDGMENTS in this present life.

Have you never asked yourself why so many people at the front of the faith lines get attacked and fall? It's GOD dealing with the adversarial parties in our own flesh and between our own two ears.

Any believer who knows they have an internal temptation thought of the TEMPTER between their own two ears should or might sooner or later come to pinpoint the LOCATION of the enemy.

He blinded Israel as a punishment for their disobedience and rejection of the Messiah, but he does not do this today.

Apparently you have not read 2. Cor. 4:4 or Mark 4:15. Yes, the DEVIL still STEALS from every persons heart and still blinds the minds of unbelievers. And does so by PLANNED adverse reactions to where The Word of God is sown. That is an automatic response of the resistance parties called the devil and his messengers.

These are not matters of just MAN ALONE.

He wishes that everyone would repent and be saved, not wishing that any should perish.

And that is FALSE. God never had any intentions whatsoever of saving the messenger of SATAN in Paul's own flesh. Paul therefore STOOD as Paul and the messenger of Satan resisted everything about both GOD and PAUL.

Open your eyes. Get all the parties on the table. We'll have a much better conversation.

People who are saved are TURNED from the power of the Satan. But we ALL still actively contend with that power within us in the form of temptation of the TEMPTER.

It is not then just GOD dealing with us.

We are Divinely placed in a VERY EVIL environment in case you hadn't noticed.

When God commanded the LIGHT to shine from darkness it was not just about the SUN and the darkness of space.

 

[jonahmano]

And that is FALSE. God never had any intentions whatsoever of saving the messenger of SATAN in Paul's own flesh. Paul therefore STOOD as Paul and the messenger of Satan resisted everything about both GOD and PAUL.

Open your eyes. Get all the parties on the table. We'll have a much better conversation.

It's like asking that God hadn't any intentions to save Judas Iscariot.

 

[smaller]

and you are doing the same... lol round and round we go...

It is not finger pointing to say ALL of us are and remain sinners Reba. I will point to the hypocrisy of isolation from that fact as and pointing at fallen believers as false finger pointing.