OSAS The Truth

[Karl]

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

If we choose to turn away from Christ because we became hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, then like Jesus taught in the parable of the Sower, we were saved for a while, but in time of testing we departed.


We must take heed, lest we fall, and to exercise ourselves toward godliness, so in a time of testing we will be able to faithful even unto death.


7 But reject profane and old wives' fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
1 Timothy 4:7-10


Those who believe to the end will be saved.

For the end of your faith is the salvation of your soul, not the beginning of your faith, but the end.


If we are faithful unto the end, then we can expect to receive the crown of life.


Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. James 1:12



JLB

And you have provided Scripture to refute your own claim,

refute old wives tales,

and that is exactly what losing my salvation after I'm born again is, a backlash theory to the Scriptural doctrine of Grace and Eternal Security, invented and proposed by men, taking Scripture out of it's original context to try and support their vain imaginations.

Are you living in mortal fear, 24/7, 365 days a year because you understand the horror of the Lake of Fire and total separation from God, that one day you will turn away, or quit the faith and lose you salvation?

If your answer is yes, I have some Good News for you, if your answer is no, then you are safe and secure in your salvation and this is just a subject of debate concerning someone else's salvation which is none of our business, ...The Lord knows how to keep His own.

Now, my question still stands, ...would you care to answer it?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

And you have provided Scripture to refute your own claim,

refute old wives tales,

and that is exactly what losing my salvation after I'm born again is, a backlash theory to the Scriptural doctrine of Grace and Eternal Security, invented and proposed by men, taking Scripture out of it's original context to try and support their vain imaginations.

Are you living in mortal fear, 24/7, 365 days a year because you understand the horror of the Lake of Fire and total separation from God, that one day you will turn away, or quit the faith and lose you salvation?

If your answer is yes, I have some Good News for you, if your answer is no, then you are safe and secure in your salvation and this is just a subject of debate concerning someone else's salvation which is none of our business, ...The Lord knows how to keep His own.

Now, my question still stands, ...would you care to answer it?

The fable that OSAS doctrine leads to complete assurance.

When in reality, it just causes one to doubt whether or not they were ever a Christian.

One should only have assurance, if they actively have faith in Christ.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The fable that OSAS doctrine leads to complete assurance.

When in reality, it just causes one to doubt whether or not they were ever a Christian.

One should only have assurance, if they actively have faith in Christ.

The fable of non-OSAS is that one never knows if they make it to heaven or not.
What if you fail God moments before you die?
You live your whole life for God for nothing.
Will he have mercy on you in the end?
Sounds like allah, not my God.

 

[smaller]

If the assurance of faith unto salvation is unknown or unknowable it would seem to be rather worthless to begin with.

 

[smaller]

The non-OSAS crowd are forced into believing that they may or may not be saved, and that usually vacillates continually within them. There really is no ground to stand on other than they may think they could be saved at any particular point in time.

They can't really say for sure though because it could be lost, even with just a simple stray thought or a action of sin, within or without.

The odd part is though, that every non-OSAS adherent does in fact believe they are saved when they are promoting that they may not be. It's quite odd behavior actually.

 

[smaller]

The fable that OSAS doctrine leads to complete assurance.

When in reality, it just causes one to doubt whether or not they were ever a Christian.

One should only have assurance, if they actively have faith in Christ.

What such an understanding above does have is temporary possible salvation which includes the demand of attached perpetual doubt.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

What such an understanding above does have is temporary possible salvation which includes the demand of attached perpetual doubt.

What understanding? That a person should only have assurance if they actively have faith in Christ?

Are you saying that a person should have assurance of salvation without faith in Christ?

 

[smaller]

What understanding? That a person should only have assurance if they actively have faith in Christ?

There is no faith stick measurement provided to anyone. Faith is an intangible to begin with.

Are you saying that a person should have assurance of salvation without faith in Christ?

I'm fairly certain our views what faith is would have differences.

Faith works through love. Do those who love have faith?

I say yes, and that the scripture shows us that.

I also say that the scriptures say that God Is Love and that those who love know God and are born of God. (1 John 4:7)

So call me liberal. For me there is no line between Jesus Christ and LOVE. They are One and The Same.

 

[reba]

And 'good luck with that' to those anti-OSAS trying to prove 1 Peter 1:23 doesn't teach OSAS doctrine.

For when you actually read the chapter/message you find out that Peter tells these chosen believers that the imperishable seed of verse 23, which they received like we do (maybe even Uncle Mark did), is none other than the seed of The Father, that is The Son. And the reason they received Him is that they were chosen to receive Him by the Father. And their reservation (and ours by extension) in Heaven is part of God's plan.

1 Peter 1:2-5 (LEB) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and for sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be multiplied to you. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, into an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and unfading, reserved in heaven for you who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, ​

Did everyone catch that? Because The Seed within them/us/Uncle Mark is imperisable our inheritance is likewise imperishable, unfading and reserved by the power of ________?
A. Them/us/Uncle Mark
B. The Triune God



Knowing Uncle Mark, as little as I do, it's hard to say. But it sounds like Uncle Mark's withering flesh talking (falling off), for the last time, to me: 1 Peter 1:24 For “all flesh is like grass,and all its glory like the flower of the grass.The grass withers and the flower falls off,

Romans 8:6-11 (LEB) For the mindset of the flesh is death, but the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mindset of the flesh is enmity toward God, for it is not subjected to the law of God, for it is not able to do so, and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.
1 Corinthians 12:3a Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed,
​

But you knew Uncle Mark better than I. The pertainate question is:
Did he ever truly claim Jesus is Lord?
If no, then see Rom 8:6-8 and 1 Cor 12:13a as they apply.
If yes, then see Rom 8:9-11 and 1 Cor 12:3b, and 1 Peter 1 since it was part of God's plan for Uncle Mark to claim Jesus is Lord (and truly believe in his heart) that Jesus is Lord. How do I know?

” and no one is able to say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you. ​

You might notice Paul, to my knowledge, wasn't writing to dead bodies or sinless people. But he was writing to fleshly ones.

You reckon the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead (who also lives in us and/or in Uncle Mark) might ALSO raise us/him to our reservation in Heaven? Hmm? just as sure as God raised Him, I think so.



How big? Bigger than God?

Did he ever truly claim Jesus is Lord?

First thank you chessman for a warm and thoughtful post.... I dont know it i can put my thoughts into words.... IMO this is where the teaching OSAS falls short...this statement and God only really knows are IMO the cop out answers... I see them as a way out of those teaching OSAS fully embracing the teaching...

I did not know Mark in his youth he was one of Dad's older brothers...I know Dad believed Mark had been saved as a young man... Mark's life.. he walked out on his wife and sons... Family rescued him for skidrow more then once .. He stole form his parents and siblings ... he lived the drunk life style.
I can make the human excuses for Mark... growing up in the depression was not easy for anyone... Alcohol is an ugly foe....

Can some one take anothers salvation... No ..
Do we loose salvation? No
Can we walk away from Jesus/salvation .. IDK

My early life was NON OSAS then moved to OSAS.... now I dont know... We all know scripture can be posted to support both sides of this coin...

What i hear in the proponents of OSAS si something like this...
It does not matter how you live your life ... The 'fruit' that is from your tree is of no bearing... if you sincerely prayed ( noticed prayed not spoke) the sinners prayer do what ever your life direction dictates. Believing anything else is the dreaded works....

Grandma Marks mom... was blind... She would say the first face i will see is Jesus ..... She so wished to see all her kids in heaven...

I have a lot of reasons to want to believe OSAS.... i think most of us do...

 

[Gary]

When are the names of the saved entered into the Book of Life?

 

[JLB]

The problem here is regenerate means believing and the opposite is unregenerate, which means never believing in the first place.
If one is regenerated, then one cannot be unregenerated.
Therefore, your claim of losing salvation is false.

The problem here is regenerate means believing and the opposite is unregenerate, which means never believing in the first place.

Here is what Jesus taught about believing, and being saved.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Believe = Saved

The group in the first example that Jesus taught us, did not believe, for if they would have believed, they would have been saved.

You correctly stated that never believing = never being saved.

However, that is no the only example Jesus used to us about salvation, from the seed of the word of God.

If this were the only example Jesus gave us, I would have to agree with your belief.


Next example:


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

These in the next example, clearly did believe!

The believed for awhile, then they fell away from unbelief.

These that believed for a while, were saved for a while, then fell away from the faith, or belief.


Believe for a while = saved for a while.



The major doctrinal flaw that is not clearly taught in the Church today is about salvation through faith, and what that means.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for... the evidence of things not seen.


If a person has faith in Christ for salvation, then that person has the substance of the very thing they are hoping for, salvation.

That person has not yet obtained the reality of the salvation they are hoping for.


That's why the scripture says: Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

and again -

receiving the end of your faith is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9


Don't get me wrong, we are saved by faith, and we will continue to be saved by faith, as long as we continue to have faith.

When we stop believing, then the substance of the thing hoped for no longer remains, for faith is the very substance of the thing hoped for.


Paul says it this way -

23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:23-25


...hope that is seen is not hope;

If we are hoping for a wife, when we obtain the reality of the thing hoped for, then we no longer hope for a wife, we in fact have obtained the reality of the thing hoped for.

We will obtain the reality of salvation when Jesus returns... so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.


JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

There is no faith stick measurement provided to anyone. Faith is an intangible to begin with.

It's not like they need a certain amount to edge them over, it's not too complicated. Are you actively trusting in Christ for your salvation, and does your life bear evidence of the Holy Spirit changing and transforming you.

I'm fairly certain our views what faith is would have differences.

Faith works through love. Do those who love have faith?

I say yes, and that the scripture shows us that.

I also say that the scriptures say that God Is Love and that those who love know God and are born of God. (1 John 4:7)

So call me liberal. For me there is no line between Jesus Christ and LOVE. They are One and The Same.

Are you saying that anyone who has "love" (however you define it) is saved?

If so, this is a heretical teaching contrary to the Statement of Faith agreed to for all Christians on this site.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

When are the names of the saved entered into the Book of Life?

God is outside of time, so that question doesn't really make sense.

 

[Jesse]

The name of this thread is OSAS the truth.

The OP presents this case using the verse ` Peter 1:23;

"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God".

Imperishable means lasting forever.

Those of you who are non- OSAS should be addressing the OP, proving it is wrong, rather than changing the thread by asking different verses to be addressed instead.

Work with the OP, otherwise, you are off-topic.

Jesus is the seed, He is imperishable. This is all about Him, not us.

 

[Jesse]

The name of this thread is OSAS the truth.

The OP presents this case using the verse ` Peter 1:23;

"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God".

Imperishable means lasting forever.

Those of you who are non- OSAS should be addressing the OP, proving it is wrong, rather than changing the thread by asking different verses to be addressed instead.

Work with the OP, otherwise, you are off-topic.

Are you saying we can not address the verse in Peter with counter scripture?

I have already shown this verse is not speaking of salvation. Yet, we will go back and forth, you will say "yes it does" and I am unable to bring in verses that show the opposite?

Taking the whole council is what we should be doing, not basing our theology on one verse and building an entire doctrine around it.

 

[smaller]

It's not like they need a certain amount to edge them over, it's not too complicated. Are you actively trusting in Christ for your salvation, and does your life bear evidence of the Holy Spirit changing and transforming you.

There is no faith switch that we can turn off and on at our discretion. In Romans 3:22 we may even observe that faith itself is an attribution of Christ Himself to all of us.

Man himself does not source 'eternal qualities' or 'spiritual matters.' These things come from and originate in and from God in Christ to begin with. We are not the originators of anything of these natures.

Are you saying that anyone who has "love" (however you define it) is saved?

If so, this is a heretical teaching contrary to the Statement of Faith agreed to for all Christians on this site.

If you or any other says that Jesus is not love then you would be the heretic.

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

 

[Willie T]

Saying that refuting an offered meaning of the OP verse is going off topic is kind of foolish.

If I quoted Luke 14:26 as being a valid fact as read in modern English........ Would you not easily counter that misunderstanding with Matthew 10:37 ?

 

[jonahmano]

The fable of non-OSAS is that one never knows if they make it to heaven or not.
What if you fail God moments before you die?
You live your whole life for God for nothing.
Will he have mercy on you in the end?
Sounds like allah, not my God.

You need to read the parable of 10 virgins again.

 

[Gary]

God is outside of time, so that question doesn't really make sense.

I don't mean a specific date.

 

[jonahmano]

OSAS do think that they have already in heaven and have fooled themselves but the reality is they are not. Same question goes to Rollo Tamasi. What if that they are in fools paradise thinking that they will make it to heaven but in the end they won't??