OSAS The Truth

[Jesse]

Saying that refuting an offered meaning of the OP verse is going off topic is kind of foolish.

If I quoted Luke 14:26 as being a valid fact as read in modern English........ Would you not easily counter that misunderstanding with Matthew 10:37 ?

I don't know if that is what he meant in that verse, so I asked him.

The whole OSAS vs NOSAS discussion brings out verses that contradict one another. The Bible is supposed to prove itself, if we take it in its entirety, but in this particular discussion it seems like it does contradict itself?

 

[JLB]

And you have provided Scripture to refute your own claim,

refute old wives tales,

and that is exactly what losing my salvation after I'm born again is, a backlash theory to the Scriptural doctrine of Grace and Eternal Security, invented and proposed by men, taking Scripture out of it's original context to try and support their vain imaginations.

Are you living in mortal fear, 24/7, 365 days a year because you understand the horror of the Lake of Fire and total separation from God, that one day you will turn away, or quit the faith and lose you salvation?

If your answer is yes, I have some Good News for you, if your answer is no, then you are safe and secure in your salvation and this is just a subject of debate concerning someone else's salvation which is none of our business, ...The Lord knows how to keep His own.

Now, my question still stands, ...would you care to answer it?

I have provided a clear and undeniable scripture that shows we are warned not to become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, lest we depart from the living God.



12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

and again -


1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:1-2


Only those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13


God loves all men and desires all men to repent and be saved.


However, The Spirit warns -


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons...


Some undoubtedly will depart from the faith in Jesus, thinking that there is no way for them to lose there salvation, because they listened to the wrong doctrine.


Jesus, Paul, James, Peter all taught and warned about losing salvation, even using angels, who are called sons of God, as an example.


God is well able to save those who believe and trust in Jesus Christ.


Those who reject this precious salvation, because they became hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, need to be warned what the scriptures actually say, and be warned of doctrines that are not of God.



JLB

 

[jonahmano]

I have provided a clear and undeniable scripture that shows we are warned not to become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, lest we depart from the living God.



12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

and again -


1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:1-2


Only those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13


God loves all men and desires all men to repent and be saved.


However, The Spirit warns -


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons...


Some undoubtedly will depart from the faith in Jesus, thinking that there is no way for them to lose there salvation, because they listened to the wrong doctrine.


Jesus, Paul, James, Peter all taught and warned about losing salvation, even using angels, who are called sons of God, as an example.


God is well able to save those who believe and trust in Jesus Christ.


Those who reject this precious salvation, because they became hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, need to be warned what the scriptures actually say, and be warned of doctrines that are not of God.



JLB

All your quotes were spoken to believing saints and your point is more convincing.

 

[smaller]

OSAS do think that they have already in heaven and have fooled themselves but the reality is they are not. Same question goes to Rollo Tamasi. What if that they are in fools paradise thinking that they will make it to heaven but in the end they won't??

The fact is that those who are saved have already been seated in heavenly places by Christ.

There is no turning back and no where else to go but up.

Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Hath is past tense. "Made us" is not a choice.

 

[jonahmano]

The fact is that those who are saved have already been seated in heavenly places by Christ.

There is no turning back and no where else to go but up.

Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Hath is past tense. "Made us" is not a choice.

Yeah pastors sleeping with other women will also go into heaven because they are seated in the heavenly places according to the scriptures. Well said..

 

[Gary]

 

[smaller]

Yeah pastors sleeping with other women will also go into heaven because they are seated in the heavenly places according to the scriptures. Well said..

My response to that has already been provided in post #96 in this thread. Deal with that if you want to have an accurate discussion.

The fact is that all believers remain sinners after salvation and none of them are temporarily sinless in any cases of measures.

And yes, any of us can have our own body temple over run in this present life by the enemies and become again enslaved by the god of this world and be a petty pawn. Particularly those who do not know their conditions of being sinners and sin being of the devil.

At the point of recognition by anyone that this matter is not just about believers we may have an entirely different conversation that has more scriptural fact attached.

 

[smaller]

Yeah we love finger pointing at other sinners don't we? Particularly the fallen pastors. They are really good targets to point at about their sins. As if any of us are sinless.

lol to every finger pointer.

 

[smaller]

I don't know if that is what he meant in that verse, so I asked him.

The whole OSAS vs NOSAS discussion brings out verses that contradict one another. The Bible is supposed to prove itself, if we take it in its entirety, but in this particular discussion it seems like it does contradict itself?

The scriptures are far more accurate than the readers comprehension abilities.

 

[Gary]

Yeah we love finger pointing at other sinners don't we? Particularly the fallen pastors. They are really good targets to point at about their sins. As if any of us are sinless.

lol to every finger pointer.

Maybe you can tell me.

When are the names of the saved entered into the Book of Life?
.

 

[jonahmano]

Yeah we love finger pointing at other sinners don't we? Particularly the fallen pastors. They are really good targets to point at about their sins. As if any of us are sinless.

lol to every finger pointer.

So you want to defend that pastor just because you can't come out of a certain habitual sin?? Every believer falls that's a fact and that's not an excuse at all but shouldn't one that falls get up? Can he still keep lying down and say that he is seated in the heavenly places according to the scriptures?

 

[smaller]

So you want to defend that pastor just because you can't come out of a certain habitual sin??

No one is sinless. It is pointless to point to another mans sin when we all remain factual sinners, as much fun as some seem to have in the activity.

I have pity on pawns of the devil. You obviously don't see them as slaves. I do. Jesus came to set captives free. From there it's just a question of time frame.

Every believer falls that's a fact

Well hello reality.

and that's not an excuse at all but shouldn't one that falls get up?

We perhaps will start to factor in a discussion of our enemies at some point of reality discussions too. It is pointless to shoot the fallen faithful in the back. Nor do I think Jesus does that either.

Can he still keep lying down and say that he is seated in the heavenly places according to the scriptures?

The moment anyone realizes that there are two parties engaged in the same lump of each of us, their sights will change.

Go read my post number 96 in this thread for a much closer look at reality as it relates to this particular subject matter.

And yes, believers will be saved, as through fire. Every last one of them. Though it may be a little uncomfortable for all of us.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I don't mean a specific date.

The question of "when" doesn't make sense when there is no time, not necessarily a specific date.

 

[smaller]

The question of "when" doesn't make sense when there is no time, not necessarily a specific date.

Every believer is separated from their sin and sin works prior to entering heaven. It will happen the same way for all of us, down to the last believer.

 

[jonahmano]

Well hello reality.



We perhaps will start to factor in a discussion of our enemies at some point of reality discussions too. It is pointless to shoot the fallen faithful in the back. Nor do I think Jesus does that either.



The moment anyone realizes that there are two parties engaged in the same lump of each of us, their sights will change.

Well thanks for understanding the point. The matter is not about shooting the fallen but shooting a person who doesn't get up and still thinks that he will make up to heaven with all muck in his life. God reminds a believer in many number of ways that a fallen person is in the wrong path but what if he lives in his own fairly world of OSAS??? It's not about how often you fall but it's about if you never get up and still live in a false world of OSAS.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

There is no faith switch that we can turn off and on at our discretion. In Romans 3:22 we may even observe that faith itself is an attribution of Christ Himself to all of us.

That depends on your translation of the Genitive case for this text, whether it is Objective Genitive or Subjective Genitive. Is it Jesus' faithfulness, or our faith in Jesus? That's a discussion for another time, but even if it is "faithfulness of Jesus," I don't think that means that he believes for us, but rather salvation was earned for us by his faithfulness to the Father.

Man himself does not source 'eternal qualities' or 'spiritual matters.' These things come from and originate in and from God in Christ to begin with. We are not the originators of anything of these natures.

God may give the gift of faith, but he does not believe for us.

If you or any other says that Jesus is not love then you would be the heretic.

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

I'm not saying that God is love, but you haven't really clearly defined what constitutes a Christian.

Can you do this, as what you stated earlier sounded like heresy.

 

[smaller]

Well thanks for understanding the point. The matter is not about shooting the fallen but shooting a person who doesn't get up and still thinks that he will make up to heaven with all muck. It's not about how often you fall but it's about if you never get up and still live in a false world of OSAS.

All believers see only in part and as through darkness in this present life. All believers remain factual sinners by degrees of thought, word and deed, AFTER salvation. Our 'real life' with God in Christ is presently HIDDEN FROM VIEW. (Col. 3:3)

Sin is not the measure that will be used to qualify or be disqualified. Christ has already slated every sin to be left in the dust of our bodies when we depart here. We individually will hang on our own respective allegorical crosses with every bit of judgment to our own sins left hanging therein and God will use every last bit of that unto final judgments for ALL of us.

But the outcome will be A PERFECT result that can only reside in His Hands Alone, showing His Superiority and Preeminence over all of it.

Evil, sin and death will prove to be GODS SERVANTS by reasons of His Superior Power.

 

[Jesse]

The scriptures are far more accurate than the readers comprehension abilities.

The Bible does say it's to interpret us and not the other way around, it interprets itself:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart

More damage has been done by people trying to interpret the Bible by themselves than anything else that has been done, imo.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Did he ever truly claim Jesus is Lord?

First thank you chessman for a warm and thoughtful post.... I dont know it i can put my thoughts into words.... IMO this is where the teaching OSAS falls short...this statement and God only really knows are IMO the cop out answers... I see them as a way out of those teaching OSAS fully embracing the teaching...

I did not know Mark in his youth he was one of Dad's older brothers...I know Dad believed Mark had been saved as a young man... Mark's life.. he walked out on his wife and sons... Family rescued him for skidrow more then once .. He stole form his parents and siblings ... he lived the drunk life style.
I can make the human excuses for Mark... growing up in the depression was not easy for anyone... Alcohol is an ugly foe....

Can some one take anothers salvation... No ..
Do we loose salvation? No
Can we walk away from Jesus/salvation .. IDK

My early life was NON OSAS then moved to OSAS.... now I dont know... We all know scripture can be posted to support both sides of this coin...

What i hear in the proponents of OSAS si something like this...
It does not matter how you live your life ... The 'fruit' that is from your tree is of no bearing... if you sincerely prayed ( noticed prayed not spoke) the sinners prayer do what ever your life direction dictates. Believing anything else is the dreaded works....

Grandma Marks mom... was blind... She would say the first face i will see is Jesus ..... She so wished to see all her kids in heaven...

I have a lot of reasons to want to believe OSAS.... i think most of us do...

"It does not matter how you live your life".
This is a statement made by non-OSAS people trying to quote what OSAS believes.
It is not true.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The name of this thread is OSAS the truth.

The OP presents this case using the verse ` Peter 1:23;

"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God".

Imperishable means lasting forever.

Those of you who are non- OSAS should be addressing the OP, proving it is wrong, rather than changing the thread by asking different verses to be addressed instead.

Work with the OP, otherwise, you are off-topic.

This thread is about OSAS, and all Scripture has truth to bear on the matter not just one verse.

If they're discussing OSAS, then you have no grounds for saying they are off-topic. You didn't communicate that this was the only verse that could be discussed in the OP, but rather titled your thread OSAS the Truth.