Paul said there is "one baptism"

[Charlie24]

As there is no sin in God...the light, no sinner is "in Christ" either.
I am not alone in here.

The born-again believer has been placed in Christ. He is now in the eyes of God, perfect, upright, righteous and holy.

God has placed us in a position we don't deserve through His Grace. It is impossible for us to live up to that position in this life. But it is possible for us to no longer practice the same sin over and over.

God called David, "the man after my own heart." David committed some terrible sins, and those sins cost him dearly, but he always came back to God and admitted those sins and sought forgiveness. As time moved on, the sins of David became fewer and fewer. During it all God watched over him and loved him, and forgave him.

It is no different with us, we may not commit the sins on the level of David, considering the time that he lived but we commit sin nevertheless. If we can't recognize those sins, then we deceive ourselves and cannot have the communion as David had with God. David did wrong, and he made it all right with God when he admitted it.

 

[Highway54]

Hello, Highway, it's been a long time! I remember many conversations we had years ago on other sites.

If I remember correctly, you're a JW. LOL, we had some knock down drag out conversations over that.

I'm happy to see that you believe in the spiritual baptism, but as to who receives that baptism we disagree.

It's good to hear frm you, Highway, even though we disagree on many things.

Actually Charlie, you are correct sir, and we have been conversing on the other site for about the past week now. RR recommended this site to me, and I believe it belongs to the same owner as it is quite a bit like the other one, only more pure at this time, likely a newer site.

 

[Highway54]

Where does scripture speak of a "baptism of the holy spirit"?

Answer - it doesn't.
The [noun] phrase was seems to have been invented by R A Torrey at the end of the 19th century and picked up by the Pentecostals at the start of the 20th century.

Great question Mungo, here you go sir: Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and [in] fire:

Thank you for asking. 2 Tim 4:5

 

[Charlie24]

Actually Charlie, you are correct sir, and we have been conversing on the other site for about the past week now. RR recommended this site to me, and I believe it belongs to the same owner as it is quite a bit like the other one, only more pure at this time, likely a newer site.

I wasn't aware we were in conversation in the past week on another site. You must have a different user name on that site. I know that I have had conversation with the JW recently, but I didn't know you were one of them.

Yesterday I was having conversation with Robert on another site, about the "new song" in Revelation. That wouldn't be you would it?

 

[Hopeful]

The born-again believer has been placed in Christ. He is now in the eyes of God, perfect, upright, righteous and holy.

God has placed us in a position we don't deserve through His Grace. It is impossible for us to live up to that position in this life.

I have good news for you, it is possible to live up to what is expected of us.
In fact, it is written that we will never be tempted above what we can bear...in 1 Cor 10:12.
We will always be provided escapes from temptations.

But it is possible for us to no longer practice the same sin over and over.

One sin is all it took for Adam to get kicked out of Eden.
One sin is all it took for the Jews to end up wandering until an entire generation died in the desert.
It is no different now.
Whoever came up with that "practice" loop-hole will bear his judgement.

God called David, "the man after my own heart." David committed some terrible sins, and those sins cost him dearly, but he always came back to God and admitted those sins and sought forgiveness. As time moved on, the sins of David became fewer and fewer. During it all God watched over him and loved him, and forgave him.

OT men couldn't be crucified an buried with Christ, and couldn't be reborn so they could walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
They had different expectations and abilities.

It is no different with us, we may not commit the sins on the level of David, considering the time that he lived but we commit sin nevertheless. If we can't recognize those sins, then we deceive ourselves and cannot have the communion as David had with God. David did wrong, and he made it all right with God when he admitted it.

If you don't expect to be able to please God, you never will.
It is a devil's trap.

 

[Hopeful]

Great question Mungo, here you go sir: Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and [in] fire:

Thank you for asking. 2 Tim 4:5

The verse says "with" the Holy Spirit, not "in" the Holy Spirit.

 

[Charlie24]

I have good news for you, it is possible to live up to what is expected of us.
In fact, it is written that we will never be tempted above what we can bear...in 1 Cor 10:12.
We will always be provided escapes from temptations.

One sin is all it took for Adam to get kicked out of Eden.
One sin is all it took for the Jews to end up wandering until an entire generation died in the desert.
It is no different now.
Whoever came up with that "practice" loop-hole will bear his judgement.

OT men couldn't be crucified an buried with Christ, and couldn't be reborn so they could walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
They had different expectations and abilities.

If you don't expect to be able to please God, you never will.
It is a devil's trap.

Well, OK! if you are sinless as you say, we should place you on a Throne somewhere to be worshiped.

I don't know any such person, all the believers I know admit they are not sinless. Not because they want to sin, but because it's our nature, even though we are saved.

That's why we are saved by Grace and not of our own doing, we are not capable of saving ourselves in any way.

It seems you no longer need God's Grace, you have arrived to perfection and will not need to be resurrected with a perfect sinless body, you already have one!

 

[Hopeful]

Well, OK! if you are sinless as you say, we should place you on a Throne somewhere to be worshiped.

No thanks: the One to be worshipped is Jesus who made it possible to participate in His death and burial so I could also be raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
I am done with the old way of life.

I don't know any such person, all the believers I know admit they are not sinless. Not because they want to sin, but because it's our nature, even though we are saved.

You know one now, and for those who refuse to repent of sin, just tell them their time is running out.
Tell them of the miracle of rebirth.

That's why we are saved by Grace and not of our own doing, we are not capable of saving ourselves in any way.

God made the way, through Jesus Christ, to triumph over what this world has to offer.

It seems you no longer need God's Grace, you have arrived to perfection and will not need to be resurrected with a perfect sinless body, you already have one!

Quite the contrary, as there are so many bent on demolishing my faith.
The perfect body will come later, as the body now is just the vessel for the Holy Spirit.
Do you think the Holy Ghost will remain in a polluted temple?
He won't.

Why not just turn from sin and live like Jesus wanted us to?

 

[Charlie24]

No thanks: the One to be worshipped is Jesus who made it possible to participate in His death and burial so I could also be raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
I am done with the old way of life.

You know one now, and for those who refuse to repent of sin, just tell them their time is running out.
Tell them of the miracle of rebirth.

God made the way, through Jesus Christ, to triumph over what this world has to offer.

Quite the contrary, as there are so many bent on demolishing my faith.
The perfect body will come later, as the body now is just the vessel for the Holy Spirit.
Do you think the Holy Ghost will remain in a polluted temple?
He won't.

Why not just turn from sin and live like Jesus wanted us to?

Over a period of 30 years I have let go of all the practicing sin I committed before I came to Christ.

So the Holy Spirit has made some improvement with Charlie.

But last summer I went on a fishing trip to the beach, I seen this drop-dead gorgeous lady all but naked in her string bikini. So I turned my head, but not before an impure thought came to my mind.

Jesus told us that if a man lust after a woman in his heart, he has committed adultery.

Do you see how easy it is for the born-again to sin with no intensions whatsoever to do so?

I could name several other things that don't include the opposite sex, where I have sinned and had no intensions of doing so.

 

[Deidr]

I have good news for you, it is possible to live up to what is expected of us.
In fact, it is written that we will never be tempted above what we can bear...in 1 Cor 10:12.
We will always be provided escapes from temptations.

One sin is all it took for Adam to get kicked out of Eden.
One sin is all it took for the Jews to end up wandering until an entire generation died in the desert.
It is no different now.
Whoever came up with that "practice" loop-hole will bear his judgement.

OT men couldn't be crucified an buried with Christ, and couldn't be reborn so they could walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
They had different expectations and abilities.

If you don't expect to be able to please God, you never will.
It is a devil's trap.

Peter wrote, when talking about Noah and the eight saved from the flood "Baptism,...., now saves you" (1 Pet 3:21

Whoever came up with that "practice" loop-hole will bear his judgement

Hi, I think we talked before...but please be so kind to explain what you mean by practice loop-hole? Tks

 

[Hopeful]

Over a period of 30 years I have let go of all the practicing sin I committed before I came to Christ.

Too bad you didn't just turn it over to God instead of doing it on your own power.

So the Holy Spirit has made some improvement with Charlie.

The Holy Spirit isn't an 85% spirit.
"Some" improvement won't be enough, and it doesn't fit the "reborn" experience.

But last summer I went on a fishing trip to the beach, I seen this drop-dead gorgeous lady all but naked in her string bikini. So I turned my head, but not before an impure thought came to my mind.

Thoughts are not sin, if you resist them.
They are just temptations.

Jesus told us that if a man lust after a woman in his heart, he has committed adultery.

Were you lusting after her or just noticing how beautiful God made the woman?

Do you see how easy it is for the born-again to sin with no intensions whatsoever to do so?

What sin?
Seeing an improperly clad girl?
You resisted making a move on her...didn't you?
Or did you sit there ogling that which you knew you shouldn't be watching?

I could name several other things that don't include the opposite sex, where I have sinned and had no intensions of doing so.

All sin is intentional.
Every sin requires what James listed in James 1:14-15...
"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
Sin must have temptation, lust, enticement, and conception.
As it is written that those in Christ have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), what lust is available to those who are Christ's?

Thank God for rebirth from His seed !

 

[Hopeful]

Hi, I think we talked before...but please be so kind to explain what you mean by practice loop-hole? Tks

OK, some insist that if one is, say for instance stealing. they are not "practicing" stealing if they are not doing it every day.
Smoking is another instance, as some who only smoke at parties or really big events say they are not "practicing" smoking because they don't smoke every day.
So, is a man who murders only one man a murderer...or does he need to kill every day to be a murderer?

The "practicing" loop-hole is a way to force sin into Christianity in spite of what 1 John 3:9 says..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Some substitute "practice" for "commit".
They seem to be oblivious to the last part of the verse which says..."and he cannot sin because he is born of God".
Just as Jesus made mention that grape vines cannot bear figs, nor fig trees grapes, we see that seed can only bring forth after itself.
God's seed cannot bring forth liars, thieves, or adulterers.

 

[Highway54]

I wasn't aware we were in conversation in the past week on another site. You must have a different user name on that site. I know that I have had conversation with the JW recently, but I didn't know you were one of them.

Yesterday I was having conversation with Robert on another site, about the "new song" in Revelation. That wouldn't be you would it?

Yes sir, that be me, pictured with my Corvair. When I signed up on the other site it gave my name as my handle, I couldn't figure out how to change it. I figured that you figured out I was he through my fruits

 

[Charlie24]

Yes sir, that be me, pictured with my Corvair. When I signed up on the other site it gave my name as my handle, I couldn't figure out how to change it. I figured that you figured out I was he through my fruits

I like that ride, that's the real deal!

Yes, I remember you from years ago as Highway, I didn't recognize you as the same in Robert, although I should have with your mannerisms.

I've been hard on you all this time, and you have always conducted yourself as a gentleman, always a pleasure to have conversation with you.

Of course you know, I don't see it the JW way at all. That way is a way of works, Robert, and I take a firm stand against it. It's nothing personal toward you, I think you are one of if not the nicest person I have met online in all these years.

 

[Highway54]

The verse says "with" the Holy Spirit, not "in" the Holy Spirit.

The original Bible used the term en sir, using the KJV of the Bible they translate it these ways:
ejn En (en);
Word Origin: Greek, Preposition, Strong #: 1722


in, by, with etc.
KJV Word Usage and Count
in 1874
by 141
with 134
among 117
at 112
on 46
through 37
miscellaneous 321

People often get misled by inconsistent renderings of words sir. A valuable resource for understanding is the site called Blue Letter Bible, gives several versions, and tools for understanding, really helps me in understanding and teaching as well.

 

[Deidr]

OK, some insist that if one is, say for instance stealing. they are not "practicing" stealing if they are not doing it every day.
Smoking is another instance, as some who only smoke at parties or really big events say they are not "practicing" smoking because they don't smoke every day.
So, is a man who murders only one man a murderer...or does he need to kill every day to be a murderer?

A murderer has no life abiding in Him. And being a murderer in the heart is like asking the question: If you could murder knowing you would get away with it would you? If the answer is yes then you a murderer.
The question is can a person have been a murderer and move from that form of thinking and attitude as He is fathered by God?

The "practicing" loop-hole is a way to force sin into Christianity in spite of what 1 John 3:9 says..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

I believe the passages are talking about 2 paths
One as you are fathered by God

As oppose to other fathered by Satan

Some substitute "practice" for "commit".
They seem to be oblivious to the last part of the verse

It's possible seeing that you are fathered by God.
For example, one goal of the development of a child is that He can stand and thereby walk without continually falling and hurting Himself.

But usually before He learns to crawl he scoots as to build muscle in one area. Then crawls sometimes falling over. But the course of His movement in building muscle memory eventually leads Him to the next journey .. what innately is in Him to get to a place of walking will always be there...but when He begins to walk He obviously knows He's there without thinking about falling.

which says..."and he cannot sin because he is born of God".

Can He Sin? (miss the Mark) if God's word remains in Him.

Just as Jesus made mention that grape vines cannot bear figs, nor fig trees grapes, we see that seed can only bring forth after itself.

The tree first has to be made good before it bears what is good.
So it is in the being fathered by God(that it's in the make )

God's seed cannot bring forth liars, thieves, or adulterers.

This is true...

 

[Hopeful]

The original Bible used the term en sir, using the KJV of the Bible they translate it these ways:
ejn En (en);
Word Origin: Greek, Preposition, Strong #: 1722


in, by, with etc.
KJV Word Usage and Count
in 1874
by 141
with 134
among 117
at 112
on 46
through 37
miscellaneous 321

People often get misled by inconsistent renderings of words sir. A valuable resource for understanding is the site called Blue Letter Bible, gives several versions, and tools for understanding, really helps me in understanding and teaching as well.

I guess it is just matter of semantics.
Baptized with, or baptized in, the Holy Spirit.
Neither way denies that the Holy Spirit is the One doing the baptism.

 

[Hopeful]

A murderer has no life abiding in Him. And being a murderer in the heart is like asking the question: If you could murder knowing you would get away with it would you? If the answer is yes then you a murderer.
The question is can a person have been a murderer and move from that form of thinking and attitude as He is fathered by God?

If a persons repentance from murder is true, they won't murder again.
If they wait five years and kill again, their repentance was a lie to God.
One must turn from, in this case, murder, to not be a practicing murderer.
The same holds true for lying, adultery, theft, or any other action which counters love.
The second sin shows the repentance to be false, which the proponents of "practicing" cant seem to handle.
Instead of repenting once, they prefer to repent a thousand times in order to retain a false hope of salvation.

I believe the passages are talking about 2 paths
One as you are fathered by God
As oppose to other fathered by Satan

Agreed, as the "seed of God" can seen metaphorically, though it is reality.
Those born of God cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.

It's possible seeing that you are fathered by God.
For example, one goal of the development of a child is that He can stand and thereby walk without continually falling and hurting Himself.

True, but if that child was once a "bird" and was reborn as a "human" it will never fly again.
Christians are reborn of God's seed, and will not bear Adam's fruit/actions ever again.

But usually before He learns to crawl he scoots as to build muscle in one area. Then crawls sometimes falling over. But the course of His movement in building muscle memory eventually leads Him to the next journey .. what innately is in Him to get to a place of walking will always be there...but when He begins to walk He obviously knows He's there without thinking about falling.

Still a "human" though, and not a "bird".

Can He Sin? (miss the Mark) if God's word remains in Him.

No, as he won't miss the mark of acting like God's child.

The tree first has to be made good before it bears what is good.
So it is in the being fathered by God(that it's in the make )

Apple seeds will never bring forth watermelons.
Ever.
God's seed will never bring forth liars and murderers.

 

[Highway54]

I like that ride, that's the real deal!

Yes, I remember you from years ago as Highway, I didn't recognize you as the same in Robert, although I should have with your mannerisms.

I've been hard on you all this time, and you have always conducted yourself as a gentleman, always a pleasure to have conversation with you.

Of course you know, I don't see it the JW way at all. That way is a way of works, Robert, and I take a firm stand against it. It's nothing personal toward you, I think you are one of if not the nicest person I have met online in all these years.

Thank you Charlie, I truly appreciate that sir. As you might gather it is not always easy, but people like you do make it easier.

If I gather correctly you disagree with our understanding of works, correct? I rather imagine we actually agree, first of all we do not teach that we are saved by works, nor do we teach that we are saved by faith, but we teach that a true Christian will show his faith through his works based on his capabilities. Do you agree with that?

 

[Charlie24]

Thank you Charlie, I truly appreciate that sir. As you might gather it is not always easy, but people like you do make it easier.

If I gather correctly you disagree with our understanding of works, correct? I rather imagine we actually agree, first of all we do not teach that we are saved by works, nor do we teach that we are saved by faith, but we teach that a true Christian will show his faith through his works based on his capabilities. Do you agree with that?

Good morning, Robert.

I can't speak for any other believer, only for myself. As you well know everyone has a different view of how our works are acceptable before God. And you know that those in Christ stand faultless before God even though we can't live up to the position in this life, in which God has placed us. That is His wonderful Grace that sustains us in that position, something we don't deserve, but He freely gives through faith.

Any works that I may have are not my own works, they are His, planned especially for me. All I do is walk through the door He has prepared for me. I see an opportunity, whatever it may be, and I walk through that door in faith.

I don't have a set of do's and don'ts, I must do this or that. I just live my life according to what I know is right in the Scripture and depend on Him to fulfill any and all works through me.

Rom. 8:3-5
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."

The moral Law, the 10 Commandments is God's standard of righteousness. In the New Covenant of Christ's Blood, we believers walk after the "spirit" as Paul said. That means walking by faith, rather than the "flesh" which is walking in our own doing.

It is impossible for us to "fulfill the righteousness" of God's Law if we walk in the flesh of our own doing. We must walk in the Spirit, in faith that He will fulfill that righteousness in us.