Paul: "The Just (justified) Shall Live by Faith" Romans 1:17.

[Free]

Here is where we part company.

If you need to be told by the commandments not to sin, then you most likely are void of the Holy Spirit.

What does Eph 2:10 say? What about Matt 28:19-20? What about John 13:34, 14:15, 21, and 15:9-17? Or what about 1 John 2:3-8, 3:22-24, 4:21, 5:2-3? And 2 John 1:5-6?

Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
...
Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Joh 15:9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.
Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.
Joh 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
1Jn 2:5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
1Jn 2:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
1Jn 2:7 Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
1Jn 2:8 At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.

1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

(All ESV.)

Not only does Jesus himself give his followers commandments to follow, he says that "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. . . . Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father." In other words, a person cannot claim to love Jesus and be his friend but not follow his commandments. And if they don't love Jesus, as seen in keeping his commandments, then the Father won't love them.

That is why John says that 'Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him," and that "Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him." In these passages, John is simply reiterating Jesus's words--God only abides in those who love him and whose love is shown by keeping his commandments.

Anyone who says or lives otherwise, doesn't actually love Jesus and so "is a liar, and the truth is not in him." That's according to Jesus's and John's words, not mine.

 

[Tenchi]

Works are not an indication of faith. There are many cults and false religions that can outshine most Christians.

But I know many Muslims who live out what they believe about Allah, and Muhammed, and what follows death, very carefully. The have deep faith in their false god, and false religion, and this shows up in great dedication to Islamic doctrine and living. I've had friends who were Hindu, agnostic, and even atheist, and they, too, lived out what they believed was true about themselves, reality and God. Faith, then, does get reflected very naturally in how one thinks and acts, in a myriad of ways.

The only real indication of whether or not one is a Christian is their doctrine.

This isn't what the Bible indicates.

1 John 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He who loves not his brother abides in death.

John doesn't make the genuineness of one's salvation a matter of doctrine, here, but points at the action of love as proof-positive of a person having truly "passed from death unto life." The obvious corollary to John's remark is that, if one is not loving the brethren, one has not yet been saved.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul, here, is unequivocal that anyone who engages in a common, persistent practice of the things listed above, is not an inheritor of God's kingdom, that is, they are not saved. He focuses upon the kind of living, not merely the beliefs a person may claim to hold.

1 John 2:3-6
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He who says, "I know him," and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He who says he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Here, too, the apostle John emphasizes what a person does, not merely what they believe, in explaining how a person knows they're "in Him" - that is, saved. It seems John here thought it went without saying that, if a person truly loves God, they will want to keep His commandments, chief of which is to love Him and others. (Matthew 22:36-39)

It's a very strange thing you're arguing for, Robert Pate. If I believe the glass of water on the counter in front of me has been poisoned with cyanide, I won't take the slightest sip of it, even if I'm desperately thirsty. If I believe the water below the boat I'm in is filled with hungry sharks, I'm not going to take a dip in the water, no matter how hot I am and how inviting the water looks. If I believe a man is a man and a woman is a woman, I'm not going to join in the delusion of some guy who wants me to pretend he's a gal. And so on. There are literally countless examples I can give of how what I have faith in, what I believe, manifests in how I act. It's exceedingly...odd, then, to encounter your contention that there is no relationship between these things in regards to the Christian life.

To add anything that we do to the Gospel is to pervert the Gospel and is an indication of the absence of faith. Jesus is the one that fulfilled the law. Jesus is the one that atoned for the sins of the world. All that we are called to do is to believe it and trust in it.

One can only receive, by faith, the saving work of Christ. But it is going too far to argue against the idea that, having received his saving work and been spiritually-regenerated, the evidence that this is so is a changed life in which one's faith in Christ is manifested in a deep love for him and a life lived to his glory. We not saved by good works, but we are most certainly saved unto good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

 

[Robert Pate]

Under the New Covenant, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. And not by rules, laws or religion.

Living by rules, laws and religion is an indication of the absence of faith.

What is the faith that Christians live by? It is faith that Jesus has ALREADY reconciled them and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. And that they are ALREADY complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

Only about 10% of professing Christians believe this, the rest believe that they are saved by works.

 

[Tenchi]

Under the New Covenant, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. And not by rules, laws or religion.

Where does it say "only"? I don't see that bit in the verse...

 

[Robert Pate]

Where does it say "only"? I don't see that bit in the verse...

It does not have to say faith only, it is implied in the scriptures. It is all about being "In Christ". "And you are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power" Colossians 2:10. You cannot make yourself any better by laws, rules and religion than what God has ALREADY made you in Jesus Christ. You need to enter into his rest. "For he that has entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works (religion) as God did from his" Hebrews 4:10. We are accepted only "In Christ" and because of Christ.

 

[Tenchi]

It does not have to say faith only, it is implied in the scriptures. It is all about being "In Christ". "And you are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power" Colossians 2:10.

Where's the ONLY by faith implication in this verse? Yes, we are complete in Christ, but you were arguing for the statement that the just shall live ONLY by faith. Colossians 2:10 doesn't say this. Neither did Romans 1:17.

You cannot make yourself any better by laws, rules and religion than what God has ALREADY made you in Jesus Christ.

Positionally, in Christ, yes, this is so. But in your practical living you can be MUCH better and, by God's power, will be. Yes, being better - sanctified - is the fruit of salvation, not it's means, but sanctification in living is still a vital part of walking with God.

You seem to be making a both-and into an either-or...

We are accepted only "In Christ" and because of Christ

Uh huh. But being "in him" will make a difference to one's living. Faith in Christ inevitably gives rise to corresponding behavior.

 

[Robert Pate]

Where's the ONLY by faith implication in this verse? Yes, we are complete in Christ, but you were arguing for the statement that the just shall live ONLY by faith. Colossians 2:10 doesn't say this. Neither did Romans 1:17.




Positionally, in Christ, yes, this is so. But in your practical living you can be MUCH better and, by God's power, will be. Yes, being better - sanctified - is the fruit of salvation, not it's means, but sanctification in living is still a vital part of walking with God.

You seem to be making a both-and into an either-or...



Uh huh. But being "in him" will make a difference to one's living. Faith in Christ inevitably gives rise to corresponding behavior.

All that come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him are sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. The condition for being sealed with the Holy Spirit is that God must see you as perfect and complete "In Christ" Galatians 3:2. Sanctification means to be set aside or to be "In Christ". It is the indwelling Holy Spirit that makes us to be witnesses for Christ and his Gospel, It is all of God.

You will never be better than you are spiritually "In Christ". In the judgment God will either see you "In Christ" or in your sins. Paul said, "And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith". Righteousness is by faith, not by works, laws or religion.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Faith and corresponding works are so intertwined, the former leading inevitably (though, not necessarily) to the latter, that to claim to have trusted in Christ as Savior and then to live like the devil, without any sign of the indwelling Holy Spirit in one's life (Romans 8:9-16), is, at least, to give fellow believers good cause to seriously doubt one's claim to salvation. Paul said it was possible to examine one's life, to test it, and see if one was "in the faith," or not. He said also that others could apply the same test to him and see that he was in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5-6). Faith precedes works but it does naturally give rise to corresponding works, to a concrete expression of what one truly believes. (James 2:17-26) And so, we encounter in the NT many injunctions to holiness (Matthew 5:48: Hebrews 12:14; 1 Peter 1:16; 1 Peter 3:1-12, etc.)

"Not necessarily" ?
How can faith not lead to good works?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Some say that there is no conflict between Paul and James, I say that there was.

To begin with the book of James was not written to Gentile believers, it was written to law keeping Jews, James 1:1. James was a Judaizer, a Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law of Moses, Acts 15:1. James was the head of the church in Judea. There were many Judaizers in the early church that could not believe that the law had been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. James was one of them. Paul made it clear that, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4.

James and others wanted to circumcise Gentile believers, Acts 15:1-29. There was contention between James and Paul concerning this. James relented providing that the Gentiles keep parts of the law, Acts 15:19-21.

James sent men to spy on Peter and Barnabas to see if they were eating with Gentiles, a Jewish no, no. When the Judaizers walked into the Wednesday night dinner Peter and Barnabas went under the table. Paul saw the whole thing and went ballistic, Galatians 2:11-21.

The book of James was one of the first books of the Bible, it is very Jewish. There is very little in the book of James about Jesus and his Gospel and a whole lot of emphasis on works. Works do not save, nor do they justify, Romans 3:20. Works are not an indication of faith. There are many that are trying to work their way into heaven by their good works, not going to happen.

Why would believing Jews still be Law keepers?
Paul wasn't.
Peter wasn't.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Here is where we part company.

If you need to be told by the commandments not to sin, then you most likely are void of the Holy Spirit.

Would somebody with the gift of the Holy Ghost commit sin?
I don't think so.

 

[Robert Pate]

Would somebody with the gift of the Holy Ghost commit sin?
I don't think so.

Those that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit are not likely to deliberately sin. However, as long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are prone to sin, we only have the "first fruits" or the down payment of the Holy Spirit, Romans 8:23. Total sanctification takes place after death and not before.

We are called to live our lives before God in the light of the Gospel. In the Gospel we have been spiritually crucified with Christ, Romans 6:6. In the Gospel we have been spiritually resurrected with Christ. In the Gospel we are spiritually complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. God sees us as spiritually perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 3:3.

If you don't understand these things, it is because Satan has blinded you to the truth that is in Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 4:4.

 

[Robert Pate]

Why would believing Jews still be Law keepers?
Paul wasn't.
Peter wasn't.

Because they could not believe Paul and his Gospel. Under the New Covenant the law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. If you were living under the Old Covenant of law, rules and religion for most of your life this would be a hard pill to swallow. Peter had some problems with Paul's New Covenant Gospel, 2 Peter 3:16.

 

[brightfame52]

Paul was quoting Habakkuk when he wrote Romans 1:17. Old Testament saints were justified by faith in God's promise of a Messiah that would save them from their sins, Romans 4:3. They looked forward to seeing their Messiah, we look back to when he was here, we are all justified by faith.

There are many different kinds of faith. Some have faith in a church or a religion, while others have faith in a doctrine written by someone that is not in the Bible. There is only one kind of faith that saves and that is faith in the work and the person of Jesus Christ. Paul wrote, "In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" Ephesians 1:13.

Under the New Covenant faith counts for righteousness. Paul wrote, "But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5. Good works are the results of salvation, not the cause of it. We do good works because we are saved, not to be saved.

The New Testament as well as the Old Testament is about faith. The 11th chapter of Hebrews is about the faith of the Patriarchs. It is a must read. "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is the rewarder of them that diligently seek him" Hebrews 11:6.

That means everyone Christ died for and Justified, shall consequently live by Faith !

 

[Tenchi]

All that come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him are sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. The condition for being sealed with the Holy Spirit is that God must see you as perfect and complete "In Christ" Galatians 3:2. Sanctification means to be set aside or to be "In Christ". It is the indwelling Holy Spirit that makes us to be witnesses for Christ and his Gospel, It is all of God.

None of this addresses my point - which was that neither Colossians 2:10, nor Romans 1:17, say that ONLY by faith a believer lives.

Being "set apart" - sanctified - is not merely a position one obtains in Christ, but is a spiritual reality that is to be manifested in one's living. Sanctification shows up in being separated from the World, the Flesh and the devil unto God. (See: 2 Corinthians 6:14-18; Ephesians 5:1-13; James 4:4-10)

You will never be better than you are spiritually "In Christ".

This is a misleading statement of the actual case spiritually for the born-again believer. Though, as God's child, I am clothed in the perfect righteousness of Christ, I am not in my practical, daily living, perfect. Just like being clothed in a bearskin coat doesn't make me a bear, my being "clothed" in Christ's righteousness doesn't make me Christ, perfect in all my ways. Spiritual growth is very much about bringing what is true of me in my spiritual position in Jesus into the shape of how I live everyday, which is, I think, the essence of maturity as a believer.

In the judgment God will either see you "In Christ" or in your sins. Paul said, "And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith". Righteousness is by faith, not by works, laws or religion.

Well, hold on, here. This isn't the whole picture of things that the Bible gives to us:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it.
11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Yes, God "sees" me in Christ and accepts me solely upon that basis, but He will, nonetheless, reward me according to me deeds (or not) at the Final Judgement. Some believers will "be saved, but only as through fire," which is to say, "smelling of the smoke of hell." Your "work" as a believer will endure testing by God, surviving unto a reward, or being burnt up as "wood, hay and straw." If your "work" is destroyed, Paul here wrote that you will "suffer loss." So, yes, your acceptance with God is eternally secure in Christ, but this doesn't mean you won't face God at the Final Judgement ashamed, unworthy of divine reward and acclamation and feeling very keenly the loss of these things.

 

[donadams]

Under the New Covenant, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. And not by rules, laws or religion.

Living by rules, laws and religion is an indication of the absence of faith.

What is the faith that Christians live by? It is faith that Jesus has ALREADY reconciled them and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. And that they are ALREADY complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

Only about 10% of professing Christians believe this, the rest believe that they are saved by works.

Does this include covenant, hierarchy, priesthood?

 

[Tenchi]

"Not necessarily" ?
How can faith not lead to good works?

As I've explained in other threads, "inevitable" is not the same as "necessary." Good works are inevitable in the life of a believer - if there aren't the many common impediments to spiritual growth hindering them. If the new believer has received good, biblical teaching; if the new believer has been discipled properly and shown how to walk well with God; if the new believer has been taught to discern "weights" that drag upon them as they "run the race set before them," and how to overcome "besetting sins"; if the believer has had the support and direction of a spiritually-healthy community of believers, THEN it is inevitable that the new believer will, in time, produce good, spiritual "fruit." But very often new believers have none of these things and are plagued with the false teaching of "wolves in sheeps' clothing," with addictions, ignorance, and the destructive immaturity/carnality of professing believers. As a result, the "fruit" of good works does not appear but, instead, they behave like the "carnal babes in Christ" of 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, or like the foolish Galatians of Galatians 3:1-3, being drawn into legalistic rule-keeping, or like the believers of the churches of Revelation 2-3 who were "lukewarm," had "lost their first love," had embraced the false teaching of the Nicolaitans, had permitted the sexual wickedness of a "Jezebel" in their midst, and so on.

It's obvious, then, that the "fruit" of the indwelling Spirit that is inevitable in a spiritually-healthy believer is not absolutely guaranteed to appear. As Scripture reveals, many things can get in the way of "fruit production." But this doesn't mean that the new believer isn't a believer. To say, then, that the "fruit" of good works must be present in the new believer's life is to make good works necessary when they are only inevitable. The difference here is perhaps most easily understood with an analogy:

An apple tree that doesn't bear apples is still an apple tree. If the tree is healthy, well-nourished, well-watered, free of diseases and pests, and not too young, it will inevitably produce apples. But if, for some reason, the apple tree doesn't bear apples, it doesn't cease to be an apple tree. In other words, bearing apples isn't necessary to being an apple tree; producing apples doesn't make the apple tree an apple tree. It is the nature of the apple tree that gives rise to apples; it is not bearing apples that makes the tree an apple tree.

So, too, the born-again person. It isn't their good works that make them born-again; it is their born-again, in Christ nature that makes them born-again (1 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 2:20). Like the apple tree, good works manifest the nature of the born-again person; they don't obtain that nature. To say that the latter is the case is to make good works necessary to salvation rather than merely inevitable (in a spiritually-healthy person): The believer must have good works in order to be a genuine, born-again believer. But the Bible flatly and repeatedly denies this.

Ephesians 2:8-9
2 Timothy 1:9
Titus 3:5
Galatians 3:1-3

 

[Robert Pate]

None of this addresses my point - which was that neither Colossians 2:10, nor Romans 1:17, say that ONLY by faith a believer lives.

Being "set apart" - sanctified - is not merely a position one obtains in Christ, but is a spiritual reality that is to be manifested in one's living. Sanctification shows up in being separated from the World, the Flesh and the devil unto God. (See: 2 Corinthians 6:14-18; Ephesians 5:1-13; James 4:4-10)



This is a misleading statement of the actual case spiritually for the born-again believer. Though, as God's child, I am clothed in the perfect righteousness of Christ, I am not in my practical, daily living, perfect. Just like being clothed in a bearskin coat doesn't make me a bear, my being "clothed" in Christ's righteousness doesn't make me Christ, perfect in all my ways. Spiritual growth is very much about bringing what is true of me in my spiritual position in Jesus into the shape of how I live everyday, which is, I think, the essence of maturity as a believer.



Well, hold on, here. This isn't the whole picture of things that the Bible gives to us:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it.
11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Yes, God "sees" me in Christ and accepts me solely upon that basis, but He will, nonetheless, reward me according to me deeds (or not) at the Final Judgement. Some believers will "be saved, but only as through fire," which is to say, "smelling of the smoke of hell." Your "work" as a believer will endure testing by God, surviving unto a reward, or being burnt up as "wood, hay and straw." If your "work" is destroyed, Paul here wrote that you will "suffer loss." So, yes, your acceptance with God is eternally secure in Christ, but this doesn't mean you won't face God at the Final Judgement ashamed, unworthy of divine reward and acclamation and feeling very keenly the loss of these things.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 concerns border line Christians. The Corinthian church was full of carnal Christians, 1 Corinthians 3:3. They were professing Christ as their savior, yet they were living like the devil. Paul is warning them that they are on the edge of apostacy and may be lost, 1 Corinthians 3:17. The Bible does not support the idea that you can live like the devil and be saved.

 

[Robert Pate]

Does this include covenant, hierarchy, priesthood?

Under the New Covenant we are all equal "In Christ".

 

[Robert Pate]

But I know many Muslims who live out what they believe about Allah, and Muhammed, and what follows death, very carefully. The have deep faith in their false god, and false religion, and this shows up in great dedication to Islamic doctrine and living. I've had friends who were Hindu, agnostic, and even atheist, and they, too, lived out what they believed was true about themselves, reality and God. Faith, then, does get reflected very naturally in how one thinks and acts, in a myriad of ways.



This isn't what the Bible indicates.

1 John 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He who loves not his brother abides in death.

John doesn't make the genuineness of one's salvation a matter of doctrine, here, but points at the action of love as proof-positive of a person having truly "passed from death unto life." The obvious corollary to John's remark is that, if one is not loving the brethren, one has not yet been saved.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul, here, is unequivocal that anyone who engages in a common, persistent practice of the things listed above, is not an inheritor of God's kingdom, that is, they are not saved. He focuses upon the kind of living, not merely the beliefs a person may claim to hold.

1 John 2:3-6
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He who says, "I know him," and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He who says he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Here, too, the apostle John emphasizes what a person does, not merely what they believe, in explaining how a person knows they're "in Him" - that is, saved. It seems John here thought it went without saying that, if a person truly loves God, they will want to keep His commandments, chief of which is to love Him and others. (Matthew 22:36-39)

It's a very strange thing you're arguing for, Robert Pate. If I believe the glass of water on the counter in front of me has been poisoned with cyanide, I won't take the slightest sip of it, even if I'm desperately thirsty. If I believe the water below the boat I'm in is filled with hungry sharks, I'm not going to take a dip in the water, no matter how hot I am and how inviting the water looks. If I believe a man is a man and a woman is a woman, I'm not going to join in the delusion of some guy who wants me to pretend he's a gal. And so on. There are literally countless examples I can give of how what I have faith in, what I believe, manifests in how I act. It's exceedingly...odd, then, to encounter your contention that there is no relationship between these things in regards to the Christian life.



One can only receive, by faith, the saving work of Christ. But it is going too far to argue against the idea that, having received his saving work and been spiritually-regenerated, the evidence that this is so is a changed life in which one's faith in Christ is manifested in a deep love for him and a life lived to his glory. We not saved by good works, but we are most certainly saved unto good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

The Gospel calls for holy living. How we live is because of what we believe about Jesus Christ and his Gospel.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Those that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit are not likely to deliberately sin.

There is no other kind of sin but deliberate sin.
All sins require several steps before commission. (James 1:14-15)

However, as long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are prone to sin,

You have not heard of rebirth from God's seed?
The Adamic body is destroyed at its immersion into Christ's death and burial during water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sin. (Rom 6:6)
Nobody will see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. (John 3:3)

we only have the "first fruits" or the down payment of the Holy Spirit, Romans 8:23.

Agreed, but the down payment is powerful enough to lead us into all truth. (John 16:13)

Total sanctification takes place after death and not before.

Sanctification happens at the application of Christ's redeeming, atoning, consecrating, cleansing, sanctifying blood. (Heb 10:10)
At out baptism.

We are called to live our lives before God in the light of the Gospel. In the Gospel we have been spiritually crucified with Christ, Romans 6:6. In the Gospel we have been spiritually resurrected with Christ. In the Gospel we are spiritually complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. God sees us as spiritually perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 3:3.

That is a great argument against your POV of continued sins and gradual sanctification.

If you don't understand these things, it is because Satan has blinded you to the truth that is in Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 4:4.

Would that be the "truth" Jesus said could make us free from committing sin in John 8:32-34 ?