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Paul: "The Just (justified) Shall Live by Faith" Romans 1:17.

Robert Pate said:
Because they could not believe Paul and his Gospel. Under the New Covenant the law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. If you were living under the Old Covenant of law, rules and religion for most of your life this would be a hard pill to swallow. Peter had some problems with Paul's New Covenant Gospel, 2 Peter 3:16.
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Then they were NOT believers !
 
Tenchi said:
As I've explained in other threads, "inevitable" is not the same as "necessary." Good works are inevitable in the life of a believer - if there aren't the many common impediments to spiritual growth hindering them. If the new believer has received good, biblical teaching; if the new believer has been discipled properly and shown how to walk well with God; if the new believer has been taught to discern "weights" that drag upon them as they "run the race set before them," and how to overcome "besetting sins"; if the believer has had the support and direction of a spiritually-healthy community of believers, THEN it is inevitable that the new believer will, in time, produce good, spiritual "fruit." But very often new believers have none of these things and are plagued with the false teaching of "wolves in sheeps' clothing," with addictions, ignorance, and the destructive immaturity/carnality of professing believers. As a result, the "fruit" of good works does not appear but, instead, they behave like the "carnal babes in Christ" of 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, or like the foolish Galatians of Galatians 3:1-3, being drawn into legalistic rule-keeping, or like the believers of the churches of Revelation 2-3 who were "lukewarm," had "lost their first love," had embraced the false teaching of the Nicolaitans, had permitted the sexual wickedness of a "Jezebel" in their midst, and so on.

It's obvious, then, that the "fruit" of the indwelling Spirit that is inevitable in a spiritually-healthy believer is not absolutely guaranteed to appear. As Scripture reveals, many things can get in the way of "fruit production." But this doesn't mean that the new believer isn't a believer. To say, then, that the "fruit" of good works must be present in the new believer's life is to make good works necessary when they are only inevitable. The difference here is perhaps most easily understood with an analogy:

An apple tree that doesn't bear apples is still an apple tree. If the tree is healthy, well-nourished, well-watered, free of diseases and pests, and not too young, it will inevitably produce apples. But if, for some reason, the apple tree doesn't bear apples, it doesn't cease to be an apple tree. In other words, bearing apples isn't necessary to being an apple tree; producing apples doesn't make the apple tree an apple tree. It is the nature of the apple tree that gives rise to apples; it is not bearing apples that makes the tree an apple tree.

So, too, the born-again person. It isn't their good works that make them born-again; it is their born-again, in Christ nature that makes them born-again (1 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 2:20). Like the apple tree, good works manifest the nature of the born-again person; they don't obtain that nature. To say that the latter is the case is to make good works necessary to salvation rather than merely inevitable (in a spiritually-healthy person): The believer must have good works in order to be a genuine, born-again believer. But the Bible flatly and repeatedly denies this.

Ephesians 2:8-9
2 Timothy 1:9
Titus 3:5
Galatians 3:1-3
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If there are no good works, there is no faith.
 
Hopeful 2 said:
There is no other kind of sin but deliberate sin.
All sins require several steps before commission. (James 1:14-15)

You have not heard of rebirth from God's seed?
The Adamic body is destroyed at its immersion into Christ's death and burial during water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sin. (Rom 6:6)
Nobody will see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. (John 3:3)

Agreed, but the down payment is powerful enough to lead us into all truth. (John 16:13)

Sanctification happens at the application of Christ's redeeming, atoning, consecrating, cleansing, sanctifying blood. (Heb 10:10)
At out baptism.

That is a great argument against your POV of continued sins and gradual sanctification.

Would that be the "truth" Jesus said could make us free from committing sin in John 8:32-34 ?
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As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners and will sin, Romans 3:10 also Romans 3:23. Paul struggled with sin, Romans 7:7-25. We live believing that Jesus has dealt with our sins. The law is spiritual, it searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12.
 
Robert Pate said:
As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners and will sin, Romans 3:10 also Romans 3:23. Paul struggled with sin, Romans 7:7-25. We live believing that Jesus has dealt with our sins. The law is spiritual, it searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12.
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I am glad my old Adamic body was destroyed at my "immersion" into Jesus and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:6)
As Paul's plaint about his "body of death" in Rom 7:24 was answered in Rom 6:6, so too was my plaint answered in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
And we both thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Weren't you reborn from God's seed after your repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your past sins?
 
Robert Pate said:
Works are not evidence of faith.
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They sure are.
Those without faith may do seemingly good things some times, but their motives are self-oriented and not God's glory-oriented.
Weren't Stephen's works evidence of his faith?
He stood up to the council by faith.
He forgave his killers by faith.
He died for his faith.

Weren't Paul's works evidence of his faith?
If not, what were his works evidence of?
 
Robert Pate said:
There were many Judaizers in the early church. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law of Moses. They are still here.
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I feel that their "faith" is suspect.
Even while Jesus was among the Jews He was showing the uselessness of the Laws the Judaizers still proffered.
The pointlessness of sabbath keeping, dietary rules, and the exclusion of Gentiles all come to mind.
 
Hopeful 2 said:
I am glad my old Adamic body was destroyed at my "immersion" into Jesus and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:6)
As Paul's plaint about his "body of death" in Rom 7:24 was answered in Rom 6:6, so too was my plaint answered in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
And we both thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Weren't you reborn from God's seed after your repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your past sins?
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It appears to me that you are trying to bring the "not yet" into the now. Spiritually, we were crucified with Christ, Galatians 2:20. Physically, we are the chief of sinners, 1 Timothy 1:15. It is poor theology to mix the spiritual with the physical. They are two separate aspects of salvation.
 
Hopeful 2 said:
I feel that their "faith" is suspect.
Even while Jesus was among the Jews He was showing the uselessness of the Laws the Judaizers still proffered.
The pointlessness of sabbath keeping, dietary rules, and the exclusion of Gentiles all come to mind.
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The words "Law" and "Religion" basically mean the same thing. The law is man's attempt to justify himself through works and obedience. Paul said, "By the deeds of the law (what we do) no flesh will be justified in his sight" Romans 3:20.
 
Hopeful 2 said:
They sure are.
Those without faith may do seemingly good things some times, but their motives are self-oriented and not God's glory-oriented.
Weren't Stephen's works evidence of his faith?
He stood up to the council by faith.
He forgave his killers by faith.
He died for his faith.

Weren't Paul's works evidence of his faith?
If not, what were his works evidence of?
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Those that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit will do good works, but good works do not save or justify. There are multitudes that are doing good works not because they have faith but because they are trying to be good enough to be saved. Matthew 7:21-23.
 
Robert Pate said:
Under the New Covenant, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. And not by rules, laws or religion.

Living by rules, laws and religion is an indication of the absence of faith.

What is the faith that Christians live by? It is faith that Jesus has ALREADY reconciled them and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. And that they are ALREADY complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

Only about 10% of professing Christians believe this, the rest believe that they are saved by works.
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Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
...
Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Joh 15:9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.
Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
1Jn 2:5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
1Jn 2:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

(All ESV.)

1. Do you agree with Jesus that if a person claims to love him that they will do what he commands?
2. Can a person be a friend of Jesus but not do what he commands?
3. Do you agree with John that a person who 'says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him"?
4. Do you agree with John that "Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him"? Do you agree that the inverse is also true--that a person who does not keep God's commandments does not abide in God nor God in him?
5. Do you agree with John that "we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments" and that loving God is "that we keep his commandments"?

Those are five straightforward questions. I look forward to your answers to each of them.
 
Robert Pate said:
As far as our position is in Christ, we are all equal. There is none greater, nor is there any lessor, Matthew 23:8-12.
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We agree on n equality now what about rolls and responsibilities?
Do all have the authority of the apostles to govern the church
To teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation?
Thanks
 
Does God give grace only on faith?
Do we need to grow in grace?
Do we need virtue? Grow in virtue?
Thanks
 
Free said:
Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
...
Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Joh 15:9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.
Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
1Jn 2:5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:
1Jn 2:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

(All ESV.)

1. Do you agree with Jesus that if a person claims to love him that they will do what he commands?
2. Can a person be a friend of Jesus but not do what he commands?
3. Do you agree with John that a person who 'says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him"?
4. Do you agree with John that "Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him"? Do you agree that the inverse is also true--that a person who does not keep God's commandments does not abide in God nor God in him?
5. Do you agree with John that "we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments" and that loving God is "that we keep his commandments"?

Those are five straightforward questions. I look forward to your answers to each of them.
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In your post you used the word "commandment or command" 21 times. Without a doubt you have a law-based theology. The problem with a law-based theology is that the law has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Paul said, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4. To everyone that believes the Gospel. Jesus is the end and the fulfillment of the law and the commandments. I don't think that you believe that.

In our name and on our behalf, Jesus met all of the demands of the law and the commandments. This is why Paul said, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" Romans 3:28. I fear for you. You are not under grace, you are under the law. "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse" Galatians 3:10.
 
donadams said:
We agree on n equality now what about rolls and responsibilities?
Do all have the authority of the apostles to govern the church
To teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation?
Thanks
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The role of the Christian under the New Covenant is to go into all of the world and preach the Gospel.
 
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