Paul's meaning of "gifts" in Rom 11:29

[FreeGrace]

The bible doesn't say the "failed'.

They fell.

The result is they were cut off

No difference. Just read 1 Cor 10 to understand HOW Israel failed.

Does broken off mean they were still saved?

Can you prove that it means loss of salvation? Of course you can't.

No where in verse 29 does it say that eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.
JLB

Your posts have gotten way off track from the OP. Can you address the issue presented in the OP? If the gifts of 11:29 do NOT refer to the gifts that Paul clearly defined previously in Romans 5:15,16 and 6:23, then please show where Paul clearly excluded them from 11:29.

Your position has NOT been proven or demonstrated. All you've given is your opinion about what you think Paul meant. Nothing substantive.

I have provided very clear verses of what Paul described as gifts, and you've not refuted that, nor shown that those specific gifts were excluded from 11:29.

As to your last sentence that "no where in v.29 does it say that eternal life is an irrevocable gift from God", Paul defined eternal life as a gift, and you have NOT shown that Paul excluded THAT gift from v.29.

Further, you cannot demonstrate that Paul defined anything that God gave to Israel as a gift anywhere in Romans. Or even in any other book of the Bible.

Your position is merely an unsubstantiated opinion.

 

[JLB]

No difference. Just read 1 Cor 10 to understand HOW Israel failed.


Can you prove that it means loss of salvation? Of course you can't.


Your posts have gotten way off track from the OP. Can you address the issue presented in the OP? If the gifts of 11:29 do NOT refer to the gifts that Paul clearly defined previously in Romans 5:15,16 and 6:23, then please show where Paul clearly excluded them from 11:29.

Your position has NOT been proven or demonstrated. All you've given is your opinion about what you think Paul meant. Nothing substantive.

I have provided very clear verses of what Paul described as gifts, and you've not refuted that, nor shown that those specific gifts were excluded from 11:29.

As to your last sentence that "no where in v.29 does it say that eternal life is an irrevocable gift from God", Paul defined eternal life as a gift, and you have NOT shown that Paul excluded THAT gift from v.29.

Further, you cannot demonstrate that Paul defined anything that God gave to Israel as a gift anywhere in Romans. Or even in any other book of the Bible.

Your position is merely an unsubstantiated opinion.

Here it is again -

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29


Now where to be found in this verse is the word eternal life.

If the word "gifts" only meant eternal life then you would have a point, since "gifts" means other things, then you don't have a point.


When you read verse's like this -

• Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith... Romans 11:20

• For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Romans 11:21

• Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Unless you think "cut off" just means some temporary punishment or discipline here on earth and has no eternal implications.





JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Two days of silence indicates that there is no evidence that Paul had excluded the gift of eternal life in the verse (11:29) that says that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Actually what us leaving you alone in the deceitfulness of your argument means is there is nothing left to do but leave you in the bullheadedness of narrowly defining 'gifts' outside of the context of the passage in order to make the passage defend what you want it to defend.

Why should we continue to talk to you who just brushes off what we say without you being able to prove it wrong, instead choosing to just restate your position with firmness, and condescend to the rest of us, as if doing that somehow proves you're right.

 

[chessman]

Actually what us leaving you alone in the deceitfulness of your argument means is there is nothing left to do but leave you in the bullheadedness of narrowly defining 'gifts' outside of the context of the passage in order to make the passage defend what you want it to defend.

Why should we continue to talk to you who just brushes off what we say without you being able to prove it wrong, instead choosing to just restate your position with firmness, and condescend to the rest of us, as if doing that somehow proves you're right.

"The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable", Paul felt that statement with firmness as he wrote it to the Gentiles in Rome as an important point of his letter to them. Just as he did "the gift of God is Eternal Life".

Paul wasn't deceiving his gentile readers into thinking Eternal Life wasn't an in context gift. Either in chapter 6 or 11.

Can you explain how continuing to reply to the thread is actually leaving it alone?

 

[JLB]

"The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable", Paul felt that statement with firmness as he wrote it to the Gentiles in Rome as an important point of his letter to them. Just as he did "the gift of God is Eternal Life".

Paul wasn't deceiving his gentile readers into thinking Eternal Life wasn't an in context gift. Either in chapter 6 or 11.

Can you explain how continuing to reply to the thread is actually leaving it alone?

When you read verse's like this -

• Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith... Romans 11:20

• For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Romans 11:21

• Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Unless you think "cut off" just means some temporary punishment or discipline here on earth and has no eternal implications.


Does "cut off" mean separation from God with eternal consequences, or does it mean God is disciplining His people here on earth?



JLB

 

[chessman]

When you read verse's like this -

• Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith... Romans 11:20

• For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Romans 11:21

• Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

JLB

When you read verses like those in Chapter 11, written to Gentiles, we find the defeat of the argument that Paul's context is merely about the Jews.

They (Jews) were broken off (just as God promised He'd do.

You (Gentiles) stand by faith and have Eternal Life as an irrevocable gift of God.

 

[JLB]

When you read verses like those in Chapter 11, written to Gentiles, we find the defeat of the argument that Paul's context is merely about the Jews.

They (Jews) were broken off (just as God promised He'd do.

You (Gentiles

Brother,

The book of Romans was written to the Church of Rome, which were Gentiles and Jews.

The context of Romans 11:29 is about Israel.

That is what I said.


Clearly those who were in the natural Olive Tree were broken off because of unbelief.

• Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith... Romans 11:20

• For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Romans 11:21

• Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Unless you think "cut off" just means some temporary punishment or discipline here on earth and has no eternal implications.


Does "cut off" mean separation from God with eternal consequences, or does it mean God is disciplining His people here on earth?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Here it is again -

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29


Now where to be found in this verse is the word eternal life.

When you demonstrate that Paul wasn't including the gifts that he already had specified in 5:15,16 and 6:23 do you have any point to make. As it is, the gifts of justification from Rom 5:15,16 and eternal life from 6:23 ARE gifts, which Paul never excluded.

If the word "gifts" only meant eternal life then you would have a point, since "gifts" means other things, then you don't have a point.

I never said they "only" meant eternal life. I have included eternal life and justification in the gifts mentioned in 11:29, and you haven't demonstrated that Paul wasn't including them.

When you read verse's like this -

• Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith... Romans 11:20

• For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Romans 11:21

• Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Unless you think "cut off" just means some temporary punishment or discipline here on earth and has no eternal implications.

These 2 verses have no bearing at all on 11:29. We don't find the words eternal life in either of those verses.

But we DO see eternal life described as a gift in 6:23. Please demonstrate where Paul was excluding that gift in 11:29.

Your view excludes eternal life as a gift in 11:29, but you haven't and cannot demonstrate that Paul had such an idea.

Your view is without substance.

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually what us leaving you alone in the deceitfulness of your argument means is there is nothing left to do but leave you in the bullheadedness of narrowly defining 'gifts' outside of the context of the passage in order to make the passage defend what you want it to defend.

I've requested repeatedly for someone (anyone) to show specifically what gifts Paul had in mind for 11:29, if not eternl life and justification. And no one has stepped up to the bat. What you are waiting for, if such a defense can be made?

Why should we continue to talk to you who just brushes off what we say without you being able to prove it wrong, instead choosing to just restate your position with firmness, and condescend to the rest of us, as if doing that somehow proves you're right.

The OP is clear, which no one has refuted. If Paul was excluding eternal life and justification from 11:29, where is the evidence for that?

I haven't "narrowly defined gifts", as you claim. Instead, you attempt to claim there are gifts in the "narrow" scope of ch 11, and exclude the gifts ALREADY noted in 5:15,16 and 6:23.

Why are you excluding the gifts of eternal life and justification when Paul never did such a thing?

 

[FreeGrace]

When you read verse's like this -

• Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith... Romans 11:20

• For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Romans 11:21

• Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Unless you think "cut off" just means some temporary punishment or discipline here on earth and has no eternal implications.

Why do you think that it does have eternal implications? Nothing but a false assumption.

Does "cut off" mean separation from God with eternal consequences, or does it mean God is disciplining His people here on earth?

As I've already explained, it has to do with usefulness or not. It has nothing to do specifically with discipline, and obviously nothing at all about eternal implications.

Why? Because Paul told us that eternal life is a gift and that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Here is how logic works:

1. eternal life is a gift per Rom 6:23 and justification is a gift per Rom 5:15,16.
2. God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.
3. Therefore, eternal life and justification are irrevocable gifts.

Now, please unpack this with better logic if there is any.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who claim that Rom 11:29 cannot mean that eternal life is an irrevocable gift are doing exactly what the Pharisees and Jewish leaders of Jesus' day did. Deny the obvious.

Jesus appealed to them on the basis of His miracles. Even if they didn't believe in Him, He asked them to believe the miracles. But they denied the miracles, though the miracles slapped them in the face repeatedly.

37“If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” 39Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp. NASB Jn 10:37-39

IOW, don't take my word for anything. But DO believe what Paul wrote: eternal life and justification are gifts, and God's gifts are irrevocable. Believe it.

 

[chessman]

You said 1)

Brother,

The book of Romans was written to the Church of Rome, which were Gentiles and Jews.

JLB

I agree. That my point! The book was written to BOTH!

You said 2)

The context of Romans 11:29 is about Israel.

JLB

I disagree. Here's why:

1. Romans 11:29 (LEB) For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Can you underline Israel in verse 29? It DOES NOT say "For the gifts and the calling of God's to Israel are irrevocable. If it did, you'd have a point.

2. Do you have any idea how contradictory your second statement is in light of your first? Chapter 11, is just as much, if not more, written to Rome's Gentiles as it is to Rome's Jews. Bold "you" or "your" throughout it and you'll see it clearly is talking to Gentiles. Verse 29 is about God, however.

3. If 11:29 was written exclusively about Israel, Paul wouldn't have included verse 30:

Romans 11:29-30 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you ...

You never answer questions that have clear answers that contradict your view.

Why do you think Paul said "For just as you.." directly after verse 29, if the context was ALL about Israel?

When someone says "For just as", they are making a comparison.

When Paul says "they" or "them" in chapter 11, he means Israel.
When Paul says "you" or your" in verse 30, he means Gentiles. And that makes your 'Exclusively Israel' claim very, very hard to believe.

When Paul says God's gifts's are irreovable, he means God's gifts are irreovocable to BOTH them (Jews) and and you (Gentiles), clearly.

Does "cut off" mean separation from God with eternal consequences, or does it mean God is disciplining His people here on earth?

JLB

There is a clear in context answer to your question. I'll give it, once you answer mine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've requested repeatedly for someone (anyone) to show specifically what gifts Paul had in mind for 11:29, if not eternl life and justification. And no one has stepped up to the bat. What you are waiting for, if such a defense can be made?

I did that, but you decided they were not gifts to Israel, apparently because they simply don't fit into your doctrine, despite the word 'gift' actually being used to describe one of them (the temple service).

Don't be arrogant and get deceived into thinking your argument is true simply because some of us know that you can't argue with a liar and, therefore, stop sharing.

 

[FreeGrace]

I did that, but you decided they were not gifts to Israel, apparently because they simply don't fit into your doctrine, despite the word 'gift' actually being used to describe one of them (the temple service).

Sorry you haven't been keeping up with my posts, but I've agreed that Paul was including whatever gifts you think he had in mind towards Israel. However, why have you not answered my request to list whatever gifts you think Paul was referring to in Rom 11:29, since you obviously want to exclude eternal life, though without any evidence for that.

Don't be arrogant and get deceived into thinking your argument is true simply because some of us know that you can't argue with a liar and, therefore, stop sharing.

Huh??

My argument is true because it is directly the Word of God.

1. Eternal life is a gift. Rom 6:23
2. Justification is a gift. Rom 5:15,16
3. God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

What isn't true about any of the above points? Can you point them out?

Conversely, can you point to anything Paul said that excludes the gift of eternal life from the gifts in 11:29?

If you can't, then your position is worse than weak. It is non-existent.

 

[chessman]

Paul's meaning of "gifts" in Rom 11:29; What gifts did Paul have in mind?
Answers provided so far from Romans:

1. Spiritual Gifts (Rom 1:11, Rom 12:6)
2. Justification (Rom 5:15-16)
3. Eternal Life (Rom 6:23)
4. Israel’s National/Ethnic Election (God’s choosing them as His nation) (Rom 11:28)
5. The inheritance promised through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ("The Fathers"), the Abrahamic Covenant made with Israel as a Nation/Group.(Rom 11:28)
6. God’s Mercy given to both Jewish and Gentile individual believers (Rom 11:30-32, 1 Tim 3:16)
7. Israel’s future salvation (as an ethnic group apparently) through acceptance of Jesus as Messiah after the full number of Gentiles comes in. (Rom 11:13-15)
8. God’s faithfulness to Israel, in the future, by re-grafting the nation back in once they come to believe in Jesus as Messiah. (Rom 11:23)
9. The Elect’s (apparently Jews and Gentile) calling and salvation (Rom 8:28-34, Rom 10:21)
10. Israel’s future restoration and forgiveness of their sins. (???)
11. The gift of Jesus the Christ (as Israel’s King and the Messiah)
12. God’s love and faithfulness toward Israel.
13. The literal deliverance/protection of the Israelites who are alive and living in Jerusalem at the end of the Tribulation (unclear whether they are Messianic Jews or not). (Rom 11:26)
14. God’s promises to the Jews listed in (Rom 9:4-5, Rom 15:8)
15. The Calling of the Jews and Gentiles to whom the letter was written (Rom 1:6) as individuals
16. The Law and The Temple (Rom 9:4-5)
17. The process by which God is casting away the ‘carnal man’ and creating Holy sons/daughters. (Rom 11:1, 11:11)

Answers provided so far from Paul’s other Epistles:

1. Spiritual Gifts (1 Cor 7:7, 1 Cor 12:4, 2 Cor 1:11, 1 Tim 4:14)
2. Baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13)
3. God’s Promises to Jews and Gentiles (Titus 1:2)
4. Salvation (Eph 2:8-9)
5. Jesus Christ (2 Cor 9:15)
6. wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption (1 Cor 1:30).

Answers provided so far from other Scriptures:

1. Spiritual Gifts ( 1 Peter 4:10)
2. God’s promises to The Fathers (Abraham, etc., Gen 15:1-21, 1 John 2:25)
3. Jesus Christ (1 John 1:2, Jude 1:5, Acts 7:37-38, 45)
4. Levitical priests (Num 8:19)

 

[FreeGrace]

Paul's meaning of "gifts" in Rom 11:29; What gifts did Paul have in mind?
Answers provided so far from Romans:

1. Spiritual Gifts (Rom 1:11, Rom 12:6)
2. Justification (Rom 5:15-16)
3. Eternal Life (Rom 6:23)
4. Israel’s National/Ethnic Election (God’s choosing them as His nation) (Rom 11:28)
5. The inheritance promised through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ("The Fathers"), the Abrahamic Covenant made with Israel as a Nation/Group.(Rom 11:28)
6. God’s Mercy given to both Jewish and Gentile individual believers (Rom 11:30-32, 1 Tim 3:16)
7. Israel’s future salvation (as an ethnic group apparently) through acceptance of Jesus as Messiah after the full number of Gentiles comes in. (Rom 11:13-15)
8. God’s faithfulness to Israel, in the future, by re-grafting the nation back in once they come to believe in Jesus as Messiah. (Rom 11:23)
9. The Elect’s (apparently Jews and Gentile) calling and salvation (Rom 8:28-34, Rom 10:21)
10. Israel’s future restoration and forgiveness of their sins. (???)
11. The gift of Jesus the Christ (as Israel’s King and the Messiah)
12. God’s love and faithfulness toward Israel.
13. The literal deliverance/protection of the Israelites who are alive and living in Jerusalem at the end of the Tribulation (unclear whether they are Messianic Jews or not). (Rom 11:26)
14. God’s promises to the Jews listed in (Rom 9:4-5, Rom 15:8)
15. The Calling of the Jews and Gentiles to whom the letter was written (Rom 1:6) as individuals
16. The Law and The Temple (Rom 9:4-5)
17. The process by which God is casting away the ‘carnal man’ and creating Holy sons/daughters. (Rom 11:1, 11:11)

Answers provided so far from Paul’s other Epistles:

1. Spiritual Gifts (1 Cor 7:7, 1 Cor 12:4, 2 Cor 1:11, 1 Tim 4:14)
2. Baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13)
3. God’s Promises to Jews and Gentiles (Titus 1:2)
4. Salvation (Eph 2:8-9)
5. Jesus Christ (2 Cor 9:15)
6. wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption (1 Cor 1:30).

Answers provided so far from other Scriptures:

1. Spiritual Gifts ( 1 Peter 4:10)
2. God’s promises to The Fathers (Abraham, etc., Gen 15:1-21, 1 John 2:25)
3. Jesus Christ (1 John 1:2, Jude 1:5, Acts 7:37-38, 45)
4. Levitical priests (Num 8:19)

Excellent summary!

 

[JLB]

Paul's meaning of "gifts" in Rom 11:29; What gifts did Paul have in mind?
Answers provided so far from Romans:

1. Spiritual Gifts (Rom 1:11, Rom 12:6)
2. Justification (Rom 5:15-16)
3. Eternal Life (Rom 6:23)
4. Israel’s National/Ethnic Election (God’s choosing them as His nation) (Rom 11:28)
5. The inheritance promised through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ("The Fathers"), the Abrahamic Covenant made with Israel as a Nation/Group.(Rom 11:28)
6. God’s Mercy given to both Jewish and Gentile individual believers (Rom 11:30-32, 1 Tim 3:16)
7. Israel’s future salvation (as an ethnic group apparently) through acceptance of Jesus as Messiah after the full number of Gentiles comes in. (Rom 11:13-15)
8. God’s faithfulness to Israel, in the future, by re-grafting the nation back in once they come to believe in Jesus as Messiah. (Rom 11:23)
9. The Elect’s (apparently Jews and Gentile) calling and salvation (Rom 8:28-34, Rom 10:21)
10. Israel’s future restoration and forgiveness of their sins. (???)
11. The gift of Jesus the Christ (as Israel’s King and the Messiah)
12. God’s love and faithfulness toward Israel.
13. The literal deliverance/protection of the Israelites who are alive and living in Jerusalem at the end of the Tribulation (unclear whether they are Messianic Jews or not). (Rom 11:26)
14. God’s promises to the Jews listed in (Rom 9:4-5, Rom 15:8)
15. The Calling of the Jews and Gentiles to whom the letter was written (Rom 1:6) as individuals
16. The Law and The Temple (Rom 9:4-5)
17. The process by which God is casting away the ‘carnal man’ and creating Holy sons/daughters. (Rom 11:1, 11:11)

Answers provided so far from Paul’s other Epistles:

1. Spiritual Gifts (1 Cor 7:7, 1 Cor 12:4, 2 Cor 1:11, 1 Tim 4:14)
2. Baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13)
3. God’s Promises to Jews and Gentiles (Titus 1:2)
4. Salvation (Eph 2:8-9)
5. Jesus Christ (2 Cor 9:15)
6. wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption (1 Cor 1:30).

Answers provided so far from other Scriptures:

1. Spiritual Gifts ( 1 Peter 4:10)
2. God’s promises to The Fathers (Abraham, etc., Gen 15:1-21, 1 John 2:25)
3. Jesus Christ (1 John 1:2, Jude 1:5, Acts 7:37-38, 45)
4. Levitical priests (Num 8:19)

Excellent summary!

Does "cut off" mean separation from God with eternal consequences, or does it mean God is disciplining His people here on earth?

Otherwise you will be cut off.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Does "cut off" mean separation from God with eternal consequences, or does it mean God is disciplining His people here on earth?

Otherwise you will be cut off.
JLB

I've already answered that question directly? Did you miss it? Or not understand it?

It has nothing to do with eternal consequences. Why would you think it would, esp since Paul tells us that God's gifts are irrevocable, AFTER already defining eternal life as a gift??

Being "cut off" is figurative language with an agricultural influence. When a branch is no longer useful, it is "cut off". That's all. Not useful, not helpful, etc. Doesn't even indicate discipline directly. It's only about usefulness or not.

Putting your bias aside, why is that explanation so unacceptable to you?