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Paul's meaning of "gifts" in Rom 11:29

God will not toss them aside and never has. Paul was quite clear that God has neither abandoned nor forsaken Israel.

Romans 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid:

Israel is a picture of the carnal fallen judged man engaging in Gods Full Intentions to make spiritual sons and daughters.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying God has forsaken Israel forever. The text plainly says they have not been rejected forever. The problem is, Freegrace is trying to use the rise and fall and eventual rise again of Israel, and the keeping of his promise in election to them, to prove that a believer can also fall in unbelief, and stay in unbelief, and still have God's promise of justification and eternal life. I've been trying to show him he can't do that because the Israelites are being spoken of as a whole, not in terms of any one individual Israelite.

The individual Israelites who have been cut out of the vine and have forsaken the calling of God and lost the gifts given to them, and the Israelites who will get the gifts back are not the same Israelites. Paul is speaking in terms of the nation of Israelites as a whole, spread out over many, many generations. That is the only why Paul can say Israelites have lost the calling and gifts, yet at the same time make the seemingly contradictory claim that the gifts to Israel, that they do not presently have, are irrevocable. Paul would have to be speaking of the same individual Israelites--and Israelites who continue in their unbelief, but retain the gifts nonetheless--in order for his doctrine to prove that God's calling and gift of justification and eternal life are irrevocable for the individual believer in the church no matter if they believe but then do not continue to believe.

So there is a world of difference between the picture of carnality being overcome by spirituality being played out among many, many different generations of individual Israelites, and that picture and illustration being played out in any one individual believer.
 
Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying God has forsaken Israel forever. The text plainly says they have not been rejected forever. The problem is, Freegrace is trying to use the rise and fall and eventual rise again of Israel, and the keeping of his promise in election to them, to prove that a believer can also fall in unbelief, and stay in unbelief, and still have God's promise of justification and eternal life. I've been trying to show him he can't do that because the Israelites are being spoken of as a whole, not in terms of any one individual Israelite.
I've not done that at all. In fact, I have minimized Israel in this discussion because Paul never described Israel has having been called or given gifts. Yet he clearly described believers as called, and justification and eternal life as gifts.

The individual Israelites who have been cut out of the vine and have forsaken the calling of God and lost the gifts given to them, and the Israelites who will get the gifts back are not the same Israelites. Paul is speaking in terms of the nation of Israelites as a whole, spread out over many, many generations. That is the only why Paul can say Israelites have lost the calling and gifts, yet at the same time make the seemingly contradictory claim that the gifts to Israel, that they do not presently have, are irrevocable.
It is really sad that you do not see the total contradiction in your argument. Out of one side of your mouth you say Israel has lost the calling and gifts, and out of the other side of your mouth you acknowledge that the gifts are irrevocable.

They cannot be both. That is impossible. Gifts are either revocable or irrevocable. Period.

Paul would have to be speaking of the same individual Israelites--and Israelites who continue in their unbelief, but retain the gifts nonetheless--in order for his doctrine to prove that God's calling and gift of justification and eternal life are irrevocable for the individual believer in the church no matter if they believe but then do not continue to believe.
The FACT of Scripture is that justification and eternal life ARE gifts, and the gifts of God are irrevocable. Paul could not have said it any more plain than he did.

Eternal life is a gift that is irrevocable. Once given, it is irrevocable.

You have not proven otherwise. There are NO verses that tell us that salvation/eternal life can be lost/given back/forfeited/etc.

So there is a world of difference between the picture of carnality being overcome by spirituality being played out among many, many different generations of individual Israelites, and that picture and illustration being played out in any one individual believer.
This has never been my point. Why you seem to think so is strange.

The Bible is clear; eternal life is a gift from God, and God's gifts are irrevocable. That means eternal life is irrevocable.

To prove your view, you must prove that Paul didn't have eternal life in mind, and even clearly was excluding eternal life from Rom 11:29.
 
It is really sad that you do not see the total contradiction in your argument. Out of one side of your mouth you say Israel has lost the calling and gifts, and out of the other side of your mouth you acknowledge that the gifts are irrevocable.
This is what I was pointing out to you. My doctrine does not produce this contradiction. Yours does. I will show you it again:

Paul says Israel has been cut out of the vine. So, for the individual Jews who have been cut out of the vine, the calling and gifts of God to Israel are forever lost. They can't get them back. But what keeps the calling and gifts irrevocable and not contradictory to the fact that these Jews can never get the gifts back again is the fact that it is different Jews who will one day lay hold of the irrevocable gifts of God to Israel.

The only way to make what Paul says about the calling and gifts of God to Israel not being revocable not contradict with the plain fact that right in the passage he says Jews have already had them revoked is to understand that it is a later, different generation of individual Jews who will receive the irrevocable promise of God's gifts. But you're trying to interpret the passage to mean the exact same Jews who lost the gifts by being cut out of the vine will get them back in an attempt to show that this proves that once a person has the gifts of justification and eternal life that they also can not lose them. But that is the very interpretation of the passage that produces the contradiction between Jews having lost the gifts and them being irrevocable. So it is impossible to use the passage to prove your point because the glaring contradiction produced by your interpretation keeps you from making the Jews the example and proof of irrevocable gifts that you want it to be.



To prove your view, you must prove that Paul didn't have eternal life in mind, and even clearly was excluding eternal life from Rom 11:29.
That's easy. Since Israel never had the gifts of justification and eternal life we know those are not included in the gifts God has given to Israel.

You are the one changing the definition of 'gifts' given to the nation of Israel in the passage to include justification and eternal life. A justification and eternal life that they have never had, so we know the gifts he is talking about in regard to the Jews who are presently cut out of the vine and off from their gifts don't include those. You are unjustifiably adding that meaning to the gifts given to Israel in order to make the passage prove that justification and eternal life are irrevocable.
 
Romans 10:1 Brothers, the desire of my heart and my prayer to God on behalf of them is for their salvation.
Paul is using "them" (Israel) as an example (one of several he using throughout his letter). Moses, is another example given in chapter 10. But the point is, he was writing to the gentile Romans. It just so happens he wrote to the Romans about how faithful God is with His gifts and callings.

Evidently you agree that 11:1 is in context since you quoted it to me. I agree. In fact, what does 11:1 say?

"I say then" or "therefore" (LEB) ... It's all one big listing of examples of just how faithful God is.

Chapter 10 and 11 are both listing supporting examples that God's gifts (all of em) are irrevocable.

It makes about as much difference, with respect to the irrevocability of gifts, that God gives it to a Gentile or a Jew or a Roman as it does whether He gives it to a left handed person or a right handed person.


Amen, so you agree that the context of Romans 11:29 - For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable, is clearly referring to Israel and not a reference to Gentiles.

Paul contrast's gentiles and Jews in the next verse, so we see that Paul in specifically referring to Israel in verse 29, and not gentiles.

If you want to lump everything said in Romans 11 as pertaining to both Jews and Gentiles, then look at verse 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

Meaning that gentiles could be "broken off" as well if they don't continue to believe.

Continue to believe... which is what we have been saying all along.

The calling is for Israel to be saved, to believe and be saved.

This calling is irrevocable.


JLB
 
However, such a view cannot reconcile the FACT that WHEN one believes, everything changes. They are SAVED, they are JUSTIFIED, they are FORGIVEN, they become CHILDREN of God, they possess ETERNAL LIFE.
If someone believes that they are co-agents of their salvation, they can not believe what you have stated above. That person must stand before God and profess to Him that their own righteousness merits eternal life.
 
If someone believes that they are co-agents of their salvation, they can not believe what you have stated above. That person must stand before God and profess to Him that their own righteousness merits eternal life.


If a person does not do the work of believing, then they can not be saved.

The work of God is to believe.


Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

To believe is the person's part to do, it is their work.


You have said the term co-agent.

I don't find this term in the bible.

Let's use biblical terms.

Believer is a biblical term, co-agent is not a biblical term.

Believers are saved.

The work of believing must be done before a person is saved.

God does not do the work of believing for us, we must do this work.

as it is written -

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14

So that makes for two believers to be involved in the salvation of a person.

A person to preach and another to believe.


JLB
 
You have said the term co-agent.

I don't find this term in the bible.

Let's use biblical terms.

Believer is a biblical term, co-agent is not a biblical term.
I agree . . . co-agent is not a biblical term. When someone makes themselves responsible for a portion of their own salvation, or the maintenance of it, he is in part claiming responsibility for his salvation. That is what I am calling a co-agent; where doctrine supporting OSAS makes God the Agent of our salvation - not only its beginning, but its ongoing maintenance, and its complete fulfillment in the future.

Perhaps I should begin to use the term 'co-savior' for those against OSAS; and then refer to your co-sovereignty, co-grace, co-righteousness, co-justification. None of these things are in the Bible, but non-OSAS doctrine makes one out to be or have those things.

.
 
This is what I was pointing out to you. My doctrine does not produce this contradiction. Yours does. I will show you it again:

Paul says Israel has been cut out of the vine. So, for the individual Jews who have been cut out of the vine, the calling and gifts of God to Israel are forever lost. They can't get them back. But what keeps the calling and gifts irrevocable and not contradictory to the fact that these Jews can never get the gifts back again is the fact that it is different Jews who will one day lay hold of the irrevocable gifts of God to Israel.
Your analysis is totally contradictory. Paul said God's gifts are irrevocable, and here you are, claiming that "they can't get them back". That makes no sense. God's gifts are either revocable or irrevocable.

btw, please specify which gifts the Jews have "lost forever", according to your contradictory doctrine.

The only way to make what Paul says about the calling and gifts of God to Israel not being revocable not contradict with the plain fact that right in the passage he says Jews have already had them revoked is to understand that it is a later, different generation of individual Jews who will receive the irrevocable promise of God's gifts.
So, what you're trying to do is claim that SOME Jews had their gifts revoked, but SOME OTHER Jews didn't????? Again, you are making no sense whatsoever.

Here is the plain truth:
1. Eternal life is a gift. Rom 6:23
2. Eternal life is given by God. 1 Jn 5:11
3. God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

It doesn't matter WHO receives God's gifts: earlier Jews, later Jews, Gentiles, etc. Those who have received God's gifts cannot LOSE them because "God's gifts are irrevocable". Period.

You still have not proven from Paul's letter that he didn't have eternal life in mind when he penned 11:29.

But you're trying to interpret the passage to mean the exact same Jews who lost the gifts by being cut out of the vine will get them back in an attempt to show that this proves that once a person has the gifts of justification and eternal life that they also can not lose them.
Your analysis of my posts is appalling. I don't give a hoot WHO has been given gifts from God. God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE. All of them. Unless you can prove that some of His gifts are revocable.

But that is the very interpretation of the passage that produces the contradiction between Jews having lost the gifts and them being irrevocable.
The problem is your misunderstanding of what Paul wrote. He NEVER said that Jews lost any gifts from God. That is only your poor understanding.

So it is impossible to use the passage to prove your point because the glaring contradiction produced by your interpretation keeps you from making the Jews the example and proof of irrevocable gifts that you want it to be.
I've not "interpreted" anything. I have QUOTED directly from Scripture. It is your erroneous interpretation that is totally contradictory to Scripture.

1. Eternal life is a gift. Rom 6:23
2. Eternal life is given by God. 1 Jn 5:11
3. God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

Please note; I've NOT mentioned any Jews here. God's gifts are irrevocable. That is the FACT that you are not willing to face and accept.

That's easy. Since Israel never had the gifts of justification and eternal life we know those are not included in the gifts God has given to Israel.
Since both the gifts of justification and eternal life are based of faith in the Messiah, these gifts are only given to individuals, and those who HAVE BELIEVED have RECEIVED these gifts, whether earlier Jews, later Jews, or Gentiles.

This is what you are unwilling to face: those who have believed have received these gifts, which are irrevocable.

Let me ask you directly: are the gifts of justification and eternal life irrevocable or not?

You are the one changing the definition of 'gifts' given to the nation of Israel in the passage to include justification and eternal life.
I have quoted exactly what Paul has already described as gifts in his letter. You have not yet described whatever "gifts" you think Paul was thinking about when he penned 11:29. What are they? And how do you know Paul had only those in mind, rather than what he had ALREADY described as gifts earlier in his letter?

Are you aware of the concept of context?

A justification and eternal life that they have never had, so we know the gifts he is talking about in regard to the Jews who are presently cut out of the vine and off from their gifts don't include those. You are unjustifiably adding that meaning to the gifts given to Israel in order to make the passage prove that justification and eternal life are irrevocable.
Please answer my question: are the gifts of justification and eternal life irrevocable? Yes or no.
 
I said this:
"However, such a view cannot reconcile the FACT that WHEN one believes, everything changes. They are SAVED, they are JUSTIFIED, they are FORGIVEN, they become CHILDREN of God, they possess ETERNAL LIFE."
If someone believes that they are co-agents of their salvation, they can not believe what you have stated above. That person must stand before God and profess to Him that their own righteousness merits eternal life.
This is surely the crux of the problem. Yet, what I have stated is directly supported by Scripture, unlike their own statements.
 
I agree . . . co-agent is not a biblical term. When someone makes themselves responsible for a portion of their own salvation, or the maintenance of it, he is in part claiming responsibility for his salvation. That is what I am calling a co-agent; where doctrine supporting OSAS makes God the Agent of our salvation - not only its beginning, but its ongoing maintenance, and its complete fulfillment in the future.

Perhaps I should begin to use the term 'co-savior' for those against OSAS; and then refer to your co-sovereignty, co-grace, co-righteousness, co-justification. None of these things are in the Bible, but non-OSAS doctrine makes one out to be or have those things.
.

I'd suggest that those who believe they 'may' be saved have a hard time removing themselves from the salvation equation as obviously they are involved with their own salvation, and can point to that fact.

When believers consider themselves, rightfully, as part of the salvation equation, they have cause for concern, knowing themselves.

There are many scriptures that define secure salvation. But there is usually a big IF attached from the scriptures themselves, as IF one is in faith, etc. etc. They focus on the IF rather than the security facts. I might say IF we were Perfect THEN we wouldn't have to concern ourselves with IF's.

Until we are Perfect The Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Truth will NOT LIE and tell us we see Perfectly. The Holy Spirit will keep us in Truth of this matter.

The Spirit of Truth will lead us to understand why we are not presently Perfect.
 
Jethro, I believe I have discovered where the error in your misunderstanding of Romans 11 lies.

Apparently you think that the phrase "broken off because of unbelief" insinuates that these Jews had formerly believed. That this "breaking off" was the result of apostasy, or ceasing to believe.

But there is no support for this idea. It is your opinion only. There are NO examples of anyone in Scripture who HAD believed being referred to as an "unbeliever".

When the Bible speaks of an "unbeliever", it always means one who NEVER believed. My support for this is because there are NO examples of a "former believer" being called an unbeliever.

And your view ignores the permanent changes that occur to one who HAS believed, WHEN they believed. That is the extremely weak (broken) link in your view.
 
I agree . . . co-agent is not a biblical term. When someone makes themselves responsible for a portion of their own salvation, or the maintenance of it, he is in part claiming responsibility for his salvation. That is what I am calling a co-agent; where doctrine supporting OSAS makes God the Agent of our salvation - not only its beginning, but its ongoing maintenance, and its complete fulfillment in the future.

Perhaps I should begin to use the term 'co-savior' for those against OSAS; and then refer to your co-sovereignty, co-grace, co-righteousness, co-justification. None of these things are in the Bible, but non-OSAS doctrine makes one out to be or have those things.

.


Yes Greg,

Please do use whatever term that you decide to use, if it is biblical.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him. 1 John 2:28-29

We are told to abide in Him.

We are told to practice righteousness.


And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 1 John 3:3

We are told to purify ourself.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


He who practices righteousness is righteous...


Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; Philippians 2:12

work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.



God gives us His Son, and God gives us His Spirit, those that produce bad fruit with the Life of His Spirit and the grace He has given us will be gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.


This is the example we have been given.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8


and again -

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


We are called to remain connected to Him, that His Life may flow through us are produce fruit.


We are called to continue in Him.


The Life of faith flows from this relationship.


Without Him we can do nothing.

He is the Author and Finisher of our faith, as it is by His Life that we are able to produce fruit unto righteousness.


We are called to be obedient to the leading of His Spirit within, and express the Life of God's Son, which is to live and walk by the empowering work of His Spirit within each and every one of us.


We are God's children, and are called to follow the example of Jesus as a Son who is Obedient to His Father's Voice.

And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. 1 John 2:17


If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us--eternal life. 1 John 2:24-25


...if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, Colossians 1:23


work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


JLB
 
Jethro, I believe I have discovered where the error in your misunderstanding of Romans 11 lies.

Apparently you think that the phrase "broken off because of unbelief" insinuates that these Jews had formerly believed. That this "breaking off" was the result of apostasy, or ceasing to believe.

But there is no support for this idea. It is your opinion only. There are NO examples of anyone in Scripture who HAD believed being referred to as an "unbeliever".

When the Bible speaks of an "unbeliever", it always means one who NEVER believed.

My support for this is because there are NO examples of a "former believer" being called an unbeliever.

And your view ignores the permanent changes that occur to one who HAS believed, WHEN they believed. That is the extremely weak (broken) link in your view.

The scriptures are filled with examples of failed believers who FELL in unbelief. In the case of Israel who came out of Egypt all over the age of 20 (with 2 exceptions) failed in unbelief. Hebrews references this as well.

The real question is, were they then eternally damned? Never is that stated anywhere. It is only 'inserted' by the readers own minds. We have no record that is the case and have a record with Moses that is NOT the case.

It's probably important to remember that believers can fall and fail in this present life in unbelief. That does not equate to auto-eternal damnation. Unfortunately MOST major sects promote that it is.
 
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Jethro, I believe I have discovered where the error in your misunderstanding of Romans 11 lies.

Apparently you think that the phrase "broken off because of unbelief" insinuates that these Jews had formerly believed. That this "breaking off" was the result of apostasy, or ceasing to believe.

But there is no support for this idea. It is your opinion only. There are NO examples of anyone in Scripture who HAD believed being referred to as an "unbeliever".

When the Bible speaks of an "unbeliever", it always means one who NEVER believed. My support for this is because there are NO examples of a "former believer" being called an unbeliever.

And your view ignores the permanent changes that occur to one who HAS believed, WHEN they believed. That is the extremely weak (broken) link in your view.


For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.


This verse is a complete contradiction to your above mentioned statement.




Romans 11:29 is specifically referring to the Jews.

The calling of salvation remains open to them, as it is open for them to believe and be saved.

Romans 11:29 is not a reference to Gentiles.


Please stop trying to use what Paul said about the Israel, in the clear context of verse 29, as pertaining to Gentiles.



JLB
 
Amen, so you agree that the context of Romans 11:29 - For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable, is clearly referring to Israel and not a reference to Gentiles.

JLB

Is that a question or are you taking up the practice of stating my beliefs for me using your words, not mine? The fact is, I disagree that Paul had God's Jewish gifts/callings in mind to the exclusion of God's Gentile gifts/callings. In fact, I know that Paul had ALL God's gifts/callings in mind when he wrote Rom 11:29 (to Roman Gentiles).

Paul had ALL God's gifts and calling in mind as being irrevocable, not just some of them or just some undefined Jewish gifts, to the exclusion of the universal gifts/callings that Paul had already defined (Eternal Life is a gift, Rom 6:23). Paul was writing to Gentiles about God's gifts, using the Jews as an example.

Your view seems to present a belief that God's gifts to Jews are irrevocable but when God gives gifts to a Gentile (or Gentiles, as a group), that particular gift is revocable. Is that your view? If so, what Roman's Scripture leads you to that belief? Or do you just suppose it's true based off of other reasons?

Paul contrast's gentiles and Jews in the next verse, so we see that Paul in specifically referring to Israel in verse 29, and not gentiles.

JLB
Actually, the next verse or two proves my point. God's mercy, demostrated through His gifts and callings, is equally true for BOTH the Jews JUST AS it is ALSO for the Gentiles. If Paul did not have the Gentile's Mercy/Gifts/Callings in mind (which is your view) he should have left out verses 30-31. But he didn't. He specifically says God's Mercy to the Gentiles is "just as" (and "so ALSO") it is to the Jews! Thus my reason for believing the way I do about Rom 11:29 and rejecting your view of this passage.

Romans 11:30-31 (LEB) For just as you formerly were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of the disobedience of these, so also these have now been disobedient for your mercy, in order that they also may now be shown mercy.

Your view of exclusive irrevocable Jewish gifts applying to Romans 11:29 is plainly defeated by the context of Paul directly applying God's Mercy, Gifts and Callings to the Gentiles "just as" He has/will to the Jews.

That IS, Paul's point.

The calling is for Israel to be saved, to believe and be saved.

This calling is irrevocable.

JLB

"Just as" this calling is irrevocable to Gentiles.

So is it your view that God doesn't call/gift or show Mercy to the Gentiles "just as" He does to Jews? Cause it sure does seem like that's your view.
 
Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying God has forsaken Israel forever. The text plainly says they have not been rejected forever. The problem is, Freegrace is trying to use the rise and fall and eventual rise again of Israel, and the keeping of his promise in election to them, to prove that a believer can also fall in unbelief, and stay in unbelief, and still have God's promise of justification and eternal life.

That will be the case for them. See Moses as a written example in Hebrews. Moses himself died because of unbelief and did not enter the promised land. So unless you want to toss Moses in hell, which is a ridiculous notion, then we have a written example of a fallen in unbelief individual who was SAVED anyway. The question then becomes, how far or to how many do you think that will not apply? Paul is clear that they will ALL be saved, even those who were, past tense, enemies of the Gospel. It's in black and white to read in Romans 11:25-32. God has not and will not forsake them, even though they individually, were blinded to the Gospel. They were so blinded in our behalves. OUR salvation came to us because of that blinding.

I've been trying to show him he can't do that because the Israelites are being spoken of as a whole, not in terms of any one individual Israelite.

As it regards Israel the WHOLE is everyone of them individually. We can't parse out individuals and still have a whole.

It might be expedient to consider that Gods Judgments are also served in the matters of failing from faith. So even in that way, the fallen faithful do serve Gods Intentions in judgments. That doesn't mean that the judgment itself will fall upon the fallen believer, but on the CAUSE.

We should all know well enough by now that if anyone doesn't believe, it is because the 'god of this world' has blinded their minds. Judgment will assuredly FALL on the 'god of this world' for that blinding. The captive will in fact GO FREE, as promised by God pertaining to the fallen in unbelief former believer. They are serving Gods Judgments. They themselves will be part the jury of their opponent on the other side of this matter in judgments.
 
Yes Greg,

Please do use whatever term that you decide to use, if it is biblical.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him. 1 John 2:28-29

We are told to abide in Him.

We are told to practice righteousness.


And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 1 John 3:3

We are told to purify ourself.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


He who practices righteousness is righteous...


Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; Philippians 2:12

work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.



God gives us His Son, and God gives us His Spirit, those that produce bad fruit with the Life of His Spirit and the grace He has given us will be gathered up and thrown into the fire and burned.


This is the example we have been given.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8


and again -

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


We are called to remain connected to Him, that His Life may flow through us are produce fruit.


We are called to continue in Him.


The Life of faith flows from this relationship.


Without Him we can do nothing.

He is the Author and Finisher of our faith, as it is by His Life that we are able to produce fruit unto righteousness.


We are called to be obedient to the leading of His Spirit within, and express the Life of God's Son, which is to live and walk by the empowering work of His Spirit within each and every one of us.


We are God's children, and are called to follow the example of Jesus as a Son who is Obedient to His Father's Voice.

And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. 1 John 2:17


If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us--eternal life. 1 John 2:24-25


...if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, Colossians 1:23


work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.JLB
What does any of this post have to do with the OP? Nothing.

If you disagree that Paul included the gift of justification (Rom 5:15,16) or eternal life (Rom 6:23) when he penned Rom 11:29, where is the evidence? And what, specifically, did Paul have in mind regarding "gifts" when he penned 11:29?

That is what the OP is about. Please stay on focus here.
 
For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Do you understand figurative language that uses an agricultural analogy? Apparently not. The point is whether one is useful or not to God. It is not about getting saved or staying saved. That's God's job.

When one turns from God, he/she is no longer useful to God. And Paul makes that point very clear about the nation of Israel. When they turned from Him, they weren't useful to Him, and He scattered them.

But nothing about loss of salvation. Not anywhere.

Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.


This verse is a complete contradiction to your above mentioned statement.
Nope.

Romans 11:29 is specifically referring to the Jews.

The calling of salvation remains open to them, as it is open for them to believe and be saved.
I don't care who it's to; whether Jew or Gentile. Makes no difference. But since you don't believe eternal life is irrevocable, please identify the gifts that Paul had in mind when he penned 11:29. That is the issue for the OP.

Romans 11:29 is not a reference to Gentiles.
It matters not a bit. What are the "gifts" in 11:29? Please lay them out.

Please stop trying to use what Paul said about the Israel, in the clear context of verse 29, as pertaining to Gentiles.JLB
I said it makes no difference. Please specify the gifts in 11:29 that are irrevocable. And please stick with context of Romans. Please don't go daisy picking throughout Scripture.
 
Romans 11 shows us that unbelieving Israel has not been cast away, even though being cut off.

Romans 11 shows us that unbelieving Israel stumbled, but they did not fall.

Romans 11 shows us that unbelieving Israel will be saved.

God Himself is clearly The Power Player all in those equations.

The Words of God in Christ were intentionally delivered to them in parables so they WOULD NOT understand.

Had they understood, God may well have summed up operations way back then and simply left the Gentiles behind.
 
Your analysis is totally contradictory. Paul said God's gifts are irrevocable, and here you are, claiming that "they can't get them back". That makes no sense. God's gifts are either revocable or irrevocable.
Your answer shows you either didn't read my post, or you simply do not understand my explanation of how can Paul can say Jews have lost the gifts of God, then say Israel's gifts are irrevocable. State my argument back to me in your own words so I can tell whether you understand what I wrote. I'm not asking you to agree with it. I'm asking you to simply restate my argument back to me so I know that you heard it, and that you heard it correctly. Your opinion of my argument is meaningless until you first understand it.


btw, please specify which gifts the Jews have "lost forever"...
Jews who have rejected the promises made to them through Abraham and died in that rejection can not later retrieve what they forfeited while they were alive. That doesn't make the promises null and void. It means Jews who don't reject the promises will receive the irrevocable promises made to Abraham.


So, what you're trying to do is claim that SOME Jews had their gifts revoked, but SOME OTHER Jews didn't????? Again, you are making no sense whatsoever.
There has always been a remnant that God has reserved for himself who have believed the promises made to Abraham. But it is only until the nation of Jews accept them as a whole, as a nation, that the nation itself will enter into the promises. Later generations of Jews will do this. They are the ones who will enjoy the calling and gifts that God will not revoke just because past generations of Jews rejected them.


Your analysis of my posts is appalling. I don't give a hoot WHO has been given gifts from God.
Well of course you don't give a hoot. You can't give a hoot who has, and who hasn't been given the gifts, or who will be given the gifts, because your doctrine falls apart if you do that. If you did give a hoot you'd see that the gifts are irrevocable in that God will not remove the promises from the nation of Israel as a whole just because past generations have rejected them and are cut off from the promises. Any Jew that rejects the promises and dies in that unbelief doesn't get them, nor will he ever. They are not 'irrevocable' in regard to any one Jew not getting them because of unbelief, then dying in his unbelief, and then somehow getting them because they're irrevocable. They are irrevocable in that the promises made to the descendants of Abraham as a whole will never be revoked and will be realized one day by a nation of Jews who will receive them.


God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE. All of them. Unless you can prove that some of His gifts are revocable.
Paul talks about the Jews who have been cut out of the vine. What you can't do is prove that the very Jews who have been cut out of the vine because of unbelief and have died in that unbelief are still going to get them despite their unbelief. Other Jews who believe are the one's who are going to receive the promises. They are the ones that will be grafted back into the vine. Not the unbelieving ones who die in their unbelief. There is nothing 'irrevocable' about the gifts for them. They lost them. They're out. Other obedient, believing Jews are the ones for whom it is true that the gifts are irrevocable for the nation of Israel as a whole.
 
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