Paul's meaning of "gifts" in Rom 11:29

[FreeGrace]

First off, this is NOT a thread about eternal vs conditional security, so please, no mention of either OSAS or non-OSAS.

Paul wrote this: "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (NASB) in Rom 11:29. The issue for this thread is to determine what Paul meant by the word "gifts". What gifts did he have in mind? The only way to determine what he was thinking is to look at context.

The Greek word is charisma and is found in the singular in 4 verses, and in the plural 2 times. Whether singular or plural, the meaning of the word does not change.

In the singular:
Rom 1:11 - "For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established" NASB

Rom 5:15-16 - "15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification." NASB

We find 2 uses of "free gift" and 2 uses of 'gift' with the word 'free' attached. In the former, the Greek is charisma, while in the latter, the word is 'dorema', also meaning 'gift'.

Rom 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." NASB

In the plural:

Rom 11:29, which is the subject of this thread.

Rom 12:6 - "Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith" NASB

So, in the singular, Paul notes spiritual gift in 1:11, but in 5:15-16, the gift is seen as justification. In 6:23, Paul says that eternal life is a gift, which is basically the same thing as being justified, since they go together and are based on faith in Christ.

In the plural, Paul does not specifically identify any specific gift in 11:29, but in 12:6, he notes that there are a number of spiritual gifts which are given to believers.

Staying with Paul, outside of Romans he used charisma in the singular in these verses:

1 Cor 7:7 - "Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that." NASB

This indicates various gifts, so referring to spiritual gifts, not eternal life.

2 Cor 1:11 - "you also joining in helping us through your prayers, so that thanks may be given by many persons on our behalf for the favor bestowed on us through the prayers of many." NASB

Here, Paul uses charisma as the favor through the prayers of many. Here, neither eternal life nor spiritual gifts are in view.

1 Tim 4:14 - "Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery." NASB

Clearly, Paul had a spiritual gift in mind regarding Timothy.

2 Tim 1:6 - "For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands." NASB

Again, a reference to a spiritual gift that was given to Timothy.

In the plural, Paul used charisma in these verses:

1 Cor 12:4 - "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit." NASB

Ch 12 is about the use of spiritual gifts, and we find the plural also in vs. 9, 28, 30,31.

Now, just to complete the study of the use of "charisma" in the NT, we find this verse:

1 Peter 4:10 - "As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." NASB

Peter is referring to spiritual gifts here.

Outside of Romans, Paul uses charisma exclusively for spiritual gifts given to believers, except in one use in 2 Cor 1:11. And Peter's single use of charisma refers to spiritual gifts as well.

However, within the context of the letter to the Romans, we must determine Paul's meaning in 11:29, which is about God's gifts being irrevocable.

Here is the issue: if Paul had ONLY in mind spiritual gifts in 11:29, how would one prove that from the epistle?

Or, if Paul was referring to some gifts given to Israel, where in the letter did he specify any gifts to Israel?

If Paul could not have had eternal life in view when he wrote Rom 11:29, please provide solid evidence for that from within the context of Romans.

Again, this thread is NOT about conditional vs eternal security. It is about determining from within the context of the letter to the Romans what Paul had in mind when he wrote 11:29.

I am asking the moderators to delete every post that argues for either OSAS or non-OSAS. This is ONLY about what Paul was referring to in 11:29 in reference to "gifts".

Specifically, what gifts? In Romans, Paul noted that eternal life is a gift (6:23), and justification is a gift (5:15,16). In 1:11 and 12:6, he notes various spiritual gifts given to believers.

So, please prove your view of what Paul had in mind regarding the "gifts" of 11:29.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

First off, this is NOT a thread about eternal vs conditional security, so please, no mention of either OSAS or non-OSAS.

Paul wrote this: "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (NASB) in Rom 11:29. The issue for this thread is to determine what Paul meant by the word "gifts". What gifts did he have in mind? The only way to determine what he was thinking is to look at context.

The Greek word is charisma and is found in the singular in 4 verses, and in the plural 2 times. Whether singular or plural, the meaning of the word does not change.

In the singular:
Rom 1:11 - "For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established" NASB

Rom 5:15-16 - "15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification." NASB

We find 2 uses of "free gift" and 2 uses of 'gift' with the word 'free' attached. In the former, the Greek is charisma, while in the latter, the word is 'dorema', also meaning 'gift'.

Rom 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." NASB

In the plural:

Rom 11:29, which is the subject of this thread.

Rom 12:6 - "Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith" NASB

So, in the singular, Paul notes spiritual gift in 1:11, but in 5:15-16, the gift is seen as justification. In 6:23, Paul says that eternal life is a gift, which is basically the same thing as being justified, since they go together and are based on faith in Christ.

In the plural, Paul does not specifically identify any specific gift in 11:29, but in 12:6, he notes that there are a number of spiritual gifts which are given to believers.

Staying with Paul, outside of Romans he used charisma in the singular in these verses:

1 Cor 7:7 - "Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that." NASB

This indicates various gifts, so referring to spiritual gifts, not eternal life.

2 Cor 1:11 - "you also joining in helping us through your prayers, so that thanks may be given by many persons on our behalf for the favor bestowed on us through the prayers of many." NASB

Here, Paul uses charisma as the favor through the prayers of many. Here, neither eternal life nor spiritual gifts are in view.

1 Tim 4:14 - "Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery." NASB

Clearly, Paul had a spiritual gift in mind regarding Timothy.

2 Tim 1:6 - "For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands." NASB

Again, a reference to a spiritual gift that was given to Timothy.

In the plural, Paul used charisma in these verses:

1 Cor 12:4 - "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit." NASB

Ch 12 is about the use of spiritual gifts, and we find the plural also in vs. 9, 28, 30,31.

Now, just to complete the study of the use of "charisma" in the NT, we find this verse:

1 Peter 4:10 - "As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." NASB

Peter is referring to spiritual gifts here.

Outside of Romans, Paul uses charisma exclusively for spiritual gifts given to believers, except in one use in 2 Cor 1:11. And Peter's single use of charisma refers to spiritual gifts as well.

However, within the context of the letter to the Romans, we must determine Paul's meaning in 11:29, which is about God's gifts being irrevocable.

Here is the issue: if Paul had ONLY in mind spiritual gifts in 11:29, how would one prove that from the epistle?

Or, if Paul was referring to some gifts given to Israel, where in the letter did he specify any gifts to Israel?

If Paul could not have had eternal life in view when he wrote Rom 11:29, please provide solid evidence for that from within the context of Romans.

Again, this thread is NOT about conditional vs eternal security. It is about determining from within the context of the letter to the Romans what Paul had in mind when he wrote 11:29.

I am asking the moderators to delete every post that argues for either OSAS or non-OSAS. This is ONLY about what Paul was referring to in 11:29 in reference to "gifts".

Specifically, what gifts? In Romans, Paul noted that eternal life is a gift (6:23), and justification is a gift (5:15,16). In 1:11 and 12:6, he notes various spiritual gifts given to believers.

So, please prove your view of what Paul had in mind regarding the "gifts" of 11:29.

Acts 11:29 is an explanation of Acts 11:28. This is demonstrated by Paul using the explanatory conjunction "for" at the beginning of the clause.

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. Acts 11:28 (ESV)

This is about the inheritance promised through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Covenant made with Israel. That it hasn't been made null by their present rejection, but that God is going to save ethnic Israel and grant them the promises given to their forefathers.

This isn't saying that God has elected all Jews, but rather that those who have faith (since those who believe are the true sons of Abraham) will be brought in. Though of course Paul denotes that God's specific purpose for ethnic Israel is that they would be saved after the fullness of the Gentiles.

Remember, this whole section of Romans 9-11 is about God's faithfulness to fulfill what he had promised as it seems he hadn't given Israel rejecting the Messiah. His point is ultimately that God's calling and his gifts are not something he goes back on, and he will be faithful to fulfill what he had promised, but is using their present rebellion as an opportunity to the Gentiles. This is all part of God's plan to work all things together for good for those who love him. That he would use even the rejection of the Jews to extend mercy to the Gentiles, and then use the jealousy of the Jews to bring them back in.

He summarizes his point here:

For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Romans 11:30-32 (ESV)

God's purposes are such that he would have mercy on as many as possible. That Jews and Gentiles have each been consigned to periods of disobedience, but only so that mercy may abound all the more.

 

[gr8grace3]

We can go to the very next verse, Romans 11:30 and see what he was talking about as one of these gifts.
New American Standard Bible
For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

King James Bible
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

1 Timothy 1:16~~New American Standard Bible
Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

And the context of 1 Tim 1:16 is Paul putting himself back into the context of what he was saying in Romans 11:25-32.(before he believed/He was a part of Israels disobedience before he was saved)

Mercy is the gift of grace in action.

Romans 11:32~~New American Standard Bible
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

 

[FreeGrace]

Acts 11:29 is an explanation of Acts 11:28. This is demonstrated by Paul using the explanatory conjunction "for" at the beginning of the clause.

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. Acts 11:28 (ESV)

This is about the inheritance promised through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Covenant made with Israel. That it hasn't been made null by their present rejection, but that God is going to save ethnic Israel and grant them the promises given to their forefathers.

This isn't saying that God has elected all Jews, but rather that those who have faith (since those who believe are the true sons of Abraham) will be brought in. Though of course Paul denotes that God's specific purpose for ethnic Israel is that they would be saved after the fullness of the Gentiles.

Remember, this whole section of Romans 9-11 is about God's faithfulness to fulfill what he had promised as it seems he hadn't given Israel rejecting the Messiah. His point is ultimately that God's calling and his gifts are not something he goes back on, and he will be faithful to fulfill what he had promised, but is using their present rebellion as an opportunity to the Gentiles. This is all part of God's plan to work all things together for good for those who love him. That he would use even the rejection of the Jews to extend mercy to the Gentiles, and then use the jealousy of the Jews to bring them back in.

He summarizes his point here:

For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Romans 11:30-32 (ESV)

God's purposes are such that he would have mercy on as many as possible. That Jews and Gentiles have each been consigned to periods of disobedience, but only so that mercy may abound all the more.

Where in the letter to the Romans does Paul say anything about God's gifts to Israel? I think that is the issue in determining what Paul had in mind when he wrote Rom 11:29. You opened with "acts 11:29" but I assume you meant Romans.

I gave all the verses where Paul used the Greek word "charisma", which is the word we find in Rom 11:29. But he never used that word or the other word for gift (dolema) in regard to Israel.

We only know how to understand a word by the context it is found in. I can't find anywhere in Scripture where God has "gifted" Israel. Sure, He's given Israel a lot of things, but none of them are called gifts.

I believe the immediate context and subject for 11:29 is salvation: Rom 11:23 - "And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." NASB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Where in the letter to the Romans does Paul say anything about God's gifts to Israel? I think that is the issue in determining what Paul had in mind when he wrote Rom 11:29. You opened with "acts 11:29" but I assume you meant Romans.

Yes, I meant Romans. lol

Was in a little bit of a hurry writing that.

I gave all the verses where Paul used the Greek word "charisma", which is the word we find in Rom 11:29. But he never used that word or the other word for gift (dolema) in regard to Israel.

This is gleaned from the context. This whole section is about Israel.

I don't think we should dwell too long on the meaning of charisma, but rather on the context of what Paul is saying. A word's meaning is provided by the way it is used.

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:25-29 (ESV)

As you can see from the surrounding context, it is clear he is speaking about Israel. He warns them not to be wise in their own sight, to not think too much of themselves as God has a plan for Israel. That though there has been a partial hardening of Israel, there will also come a future salvation. The "they" referenced in v.28 is clearly Israel, and v.29 is an explanation of v.28. Which one is of course to conclude that the gifts and callings specifically being mentioned are those given to Israel, it is an appeal to God's faithfulness as it relates to Israel.

I believe the immediate context and subject for 11:29 is salvation: Rom 11:23 - "And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." NASB

The immediate context is the salvation of Israel, he is not talking about our individual salvation.

"And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written" Romans 11:26 (ESV)

Paul is alluding to God's Covenant faithfulness on account of their forefathers for their future salvation, that though they have fallen, God's gifts and callings are irrevocable and he will bring them back into the fold.

This is summarized in Romans 11:32

For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Romans 11:32 (ESV)

I highly recommend reading Romans 11 a couple times start to finish, even reading Romans 9-11 to gain a fuller context to see what God is talking about. You have to remember that Paul is dealing with the issue of the inclusion of the Gentiles and the faithfulness of God in relation to the rejection of ethnic Israel. They were expecting the Messiah to setup an earthly throne over the kingdom of Israel and save them from Roman occupation, and usher in their concept of the Messianic Age. God had bigger plans, which involved saving the world and thus the cross was a stumbling block to the Jews, as a crucified Messiah is not what they were expecting. These were extremely central issues and at the heart of Paul's message, if we fail to realize how big a deal the inclusion of the Gentiles was then we will misread Paul and the rest of the New Testament.

 

[TOG]

What gifts did he have in mind? The only way to determine what he was thinking is to look at context.

I agree. But why didn't you do that. The context isn't where else in the Bible we find the same word, but what Paul was talking about in that passage. Let's look at the context.

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. (Rom. 11:28-32 ESV)
​

God gave the gift of salvation to the Hebrews, and it will not be permanently taken away from them. They are only temporarily blinded, because the gift God gave them cannot be taken from them.

The TOG​

 

[turnorburn]

When I've read all Israel shall be saved I've understood that its referring to the elect..

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

tob

 

[Shimshon]

Yes, I meant Romans. lol

Was in a little bit of a hurry writing that.


This is gleaned from the context. This whole section is about Israel.

I don't think we should dwell too long on the meaning of charisma, but rather on the context of what Paul is saying. A word's meaning is provided by the way it is used.

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:25-29 (ESV)

As you can see from the surrounding context, it is clear he is speaking about Israel. He warns them not to be wise in their own sight, to not think too much of themselves as God has a plan for Israel. That though there has been a partial hardening of Israel, there will also come a future salvation. The "they" referenced in v.28 is clearly Israel, and v.29 is an explanation of v.28. Which one is of course to conclude that the gifts and callings specifically being mentioned are those given to Israel, it is an appeal to God's faithfulness as it relates to Israel.


The immediate context is the salvation of Israel, he is not talking about our individual salvation.

"And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written" Romans 11:26 (ESV)

Paul is alluding to God's Covenant faithfulness on account of their forefathers for their future salvation, that though they have fallen, God's gifts and callings are irrevocable and he will bring them back into the fold.

This is summarized in Romans 11:32

For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Romans 11:32 (ESV)

I highly recommend reading Romans 11 a couple times start to finish, even reading Romans 9-11 to gain a fuller context to see what God is talking about. You have to remember that Paul is dealing with the issue of the inclusion of the Gentiles and the faithfulness of God in relation to the rejection of ethnic Israel. They were expecting the Messiah to setup an earthly throne over the kingdom of Israel and save them from Roman occupation, and usher in their concept of the Messianic Age. God had bigger plans, which involved saving the world and thus the cross was a stumbling block to the Jews, as a crucified Messiah is not what they were expecting. These were extremely central issues and at the heart of Paul's message, if we fail to realize how big a deal the inclusion of the Gentiles was then we will misread Paul and the rest of the New Testament.

I agree. But why didn't you do that. The context isn't where else in the Bible we find the same word, but what Paul was talking about in that passage. Let's look at the context.

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. (Rom. 11:28-32 ESV)
​

God gave the gift of salvation to the Hebrews, and it will not be permanently taken away from them. They are only temporarily blinded, because the gift God gave them cannot be taken from them.

The TOG​

Two good responses. I too have indicated such in another thread. But was only relegated to nonsense. The context is quite clear, and the conclusion is seemingly understood by most laymen and scholars. This is what happens when someones bias overrules logical reason. Not only has God not forsaken Yisrael he has promised to restore her and take away our sins. Any other message is not the gospel. It leaves the Messiah of Yisrael coming and rejecting those whe was sent to redeem. There will be no redmption of the nations without the redemption of Yisrael. God has not forsaken his people.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

When I've read all Israel shall be saved I've understood that its referring to the elect..

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

tob

This would be incorrect, and an attempt to explain away God's plan for Israel.

Why would Paul consistently be distinguishing Israel with the Gentiles throughout the Chapter, if the elect was some ethnically diverse group that he is referring to?

Luckily, he states this very clearly multiple times so that there shouldn't be any confusion.

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? Romans 11:13-15 (ESV)

It couldn't be clearer, God's plan is to save ethnic Israel.

 

[turnorburn]

Romans 9: 1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

tob

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Romans 9: 1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

tob

What you are promoting is replacement theology, which is very much so in error.

When Paul asks the question of whether or not God has rejected his people, this is his answer:

"I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin." Romans 11:1 (ESV)

Notice how Paul's reasoning isn't, "of course not, because only those of faith are truly his people so it doesn't matter!" Rather, he appeals to his ethnic background, that he is a descendant of Abraham of the tribe of Benjamin. This then informs us of what Israel he is referring to in this context of Romans 11, ethnic Israel. It's the only way to read Romans 11 that makes sense. He consistently contrasts the Gentiles with the Israelites, and he consistently describes the current state of ethnic Israel.

Of course the church hasn't been blinded so that the salvation of the Gentiles can commence, that's a description of ethnic Israel that has come to fruition.

in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. Romans 11:14 (ESV)

Please make sense of the whole of Romans 11 with your interpretation. I can break it down so that it is extremely coherent given my interpretation, please do so with yours. Explain to me how God wants to make Israel Jealous with the salvation with the Gentiles.

 

[turnorburn]

By extremely coherent do you mean..

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

tob

 

[Doulos Iesou]

By extremely coherent do you mean..

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

tob

You keep appealing to texts outside of Romans 11. Perhaps you can address the direct context, where Paul is making his specific reasoning about ethnic Israel.

Please provide your interpretation of Romans 11, making sense out of texts such as the Gentiles being saved in order to make Israel jealous. How is that coherent in your perspective?

 

[Shimshon]

Extremely coherent...... using the same chapter as the OP discussion states that you gentiles are supported by the root, not that you support the root. It also warns not to become proud because of your grafting in but to fear, because if God did not spare the natural branches but proceeded to prune them accordingly, what makes you think he won't do the same to you? But oh the 'gift' of mercy! It also states that if we who were pruned repent and believe we will be grafted back into 'our own tree', not another. Yet, so many in Christianity want to remove our place and boast over our pruning as if we are to be grafted back into 'your' tree. Will replacement theology have no end?

18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.19Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

23And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.24For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Extremely coherent...... using the same chapter as the OP discussion states that you gentiles are supported by the root, not that you support the root. It also warns not to become proud because of your grafting in but to fear, because if God did not spare the natural branches but proceeded to prune them accordingly, what makes you think he won't do the same to you? But oh the 'gift' of mercy! It also states that if we who were pruned repent and believe we will be grafted back into 'our own tree', not another. Yet, so many in Christianity want to remove our place and boast over our pruning as if we are to be grafted back into 'your' tree. Will replacement theology have no end?

18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.19Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

23And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.24For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Romans 11 is a very neglected and beautiful text amongst many Christians. Indeed Romans 9-11 are so often misunderstood, and only proof texted for the seemingly salvation verses, when really Paul is dealing with a larger theme. The inclusion of the Gentiles and the rejection of unbelieving Israel and their future salvation when the fullness of the Gentiles comes.

 

[turnorburn]

If ye be Christ's and i believe we are then we are heirs according to the promise he Gave Abraham..

Galatians 9:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

tob

 

[Doulos Iesou]

If ye be Christ's and i believe we are then we are heirs according to the promise he Gave Abraham..

Galatians 9:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

tob

Can you per chance cite an argument from Romans 11?

 

[turnorburn]

What do you make of this statement?

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

tob

 

[Doulos Iesou]

What do you make of this statement?

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

tob

Glad you asked, I have no problem answering your questions tob.

Let's look at it within the context shall we, that's always a good approach to understanding Scripture.

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, Romans 11:25-26 (ESV)

Paul is very clearly expressing God's intent for the salvation of Israel, that we should not be unaware of this mystery concerning his plan. That in the present a partial hardening has come upon Israel, and this will continue until "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." There appears to be a time in God's redemptive history where the period of the Gentiles will come into a head and will inspire the Israelites to jealousy (Romans 11:14). Then all Israel will be saved, and Paul quotes Isaiah 59:20-21 to cite that this is to fulfill a prophecy. That it was always God's intent to restore Israel, even as he foresaw their fall, but intended for more mercy through their disobedience.

 

[Malachi]

So, please prove your view of what Paul had in mind regarding the "gifts" of 11:29.

It's a good question, and can be answered by reading the whole chapter and then focusing on verses 26-29. So the "gifts" in view are:
1. SALVATION FOR THE JEWS -- "All Israel shall be saved".
2. REDEEMED AND RESTORED ISRAEL -- "Sion (Zion)"
3. CHRIST THE MESSIAH AND KING -- "out of Sion the Deliverer"
4. RIGHTEOUSNESS -- "shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"
5. THE NEW COVENANT -- "For this is my Covenant unto them"
6. REMISSION OF SINS -- "I shall take away their sins"
7. THE GOSPEL -- "As concerning the Gospel"
8. DIVINE ELECTION -- "as touching the election" (thus "and calling")
9. GOD'S UNCHANGING LOVE -- "they are beloved"
10. GOD'S FAITHFULNESS -- "for the fathers' sakes"