Paul's meaning of "gifts" in Rom 11:29

[FreeGrace]

It is not what "Paul considered" but what "God considered". Paul simply wrote the words given to Him by the Holy Spirit. And it is the CONTEXT which tells you that this is what Paul means by "the gifts and calling" as applied to redeemed Israel.

I do not believe that Paul's mind was in neutral when he wrote Scripture. He specifically mentioned the word "gift" several times before he got to 11:29. Please explain how the specific gifts of justification and eternal life cannot be what he was referring to in 11:29, if you don't think he had justification or eternal life in mind.

Really? Check Rom 8:28-34. Look for the words "called" and "elect" (KJV) and see how everything fits together.

Those words are totally different. Consider Matt 22:14, which says that many are called, but few are chosen.

The word for "called" means to 'invite'. The word for elect means to be 'chosen'.

As for God's "calling" not being a gift, SALVATION [which ecompasses a whole range of blessings and benefits is a GIFT of God (Eph 2:8,9)]. Therefore all related blessings are "gifts". Unless one can prove that anything in that passage can be earned.

There are no verses anywhere in Scripture that describes calling as a gift. But justification and eternal life ARE described as gifts.

The "spiritual gifts" mentioned in 1 Cor 12-14 (or elsewhere) have nothing whatsoever to do with this passage. At the same time it can be applied generically to ALL gifts from God (which is a separate issue). Ask yourself "Is Christ a gift to mankind?" "Is Christ a gift to the believer?" Then take each item listed and ask yourself the same question. Is redemption a gift, or can it be earned? Is restoration a gift, or can it be earned? You must keep "the gifts and calling" within the context in which that phrase is used. Everything connect with Christ and the New Covenant is a gift of God's grace. Christ the Deliverer is a much as gift to Israel as Christ the Savior is to the Church.

Let's stick with context. Paul had specifically described 2 things as gifts before he penned 11:29. If you don't believe he had those 2 specific things in mind for 11:29, please explain why he couldn't be thinking of them specifically.

 

[chessman]

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj5f.pdf


In this 1994 TMSJ article (about another subject) the author (Dean of Pastors at The Master's Siminary) thinks Rom 11:29's gifts are for Israel exclusively and are listed by Paul in Rom 9:4-5 as he accuses Deere of 'prooftexting' Rom 11:29 to 'prove' the NT spiritual gifts haven't ceased. (I hope nobody get's off topic with that subject in this thread).

Deere suggests that Rom 11:29`"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable"`teaches that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit did not cease with the apostles, but continue on to this very day because they are irrevocable (289). However, the context of Romans 11 requires that the subject matter refer to Israel and her spiritual heritage, not to spiritual gifts in the church. The charismata ("gifts") of Romans 11:29 look back to God's grace gifts for Israel, recited in Romans 9:4-5. This is the clearest example of his inaccurate prooftexting.​

But I'm left wondering how this author doesn't see the hypocrisy of accusing Deere of excluding Israel's 'gifts' (as he calls them gifts but Paul doesn't) as he himself excludes Eternal Life as a gift. Even though Eternal Life is specifically called a gift, yet Rom 9:4-5 doesn't call any of those things gifts. Odd really.

Also, looking in to the debate going on in their published work by one of their seminary Deans, I'm left wondering if they had a "no personal commits" rule for their journal. I guess not, that they applied to themselves anyway.

 

[Malachi]

I do not believe that Paul's mind was in neutral when he wrote Scripture. He specifically mentioned the word "gift" several times before he got to 11:29. Please explain how the specific gifts of justification and eternal life cannot be what he was referring to in 11:29, if you don't think he had justification or eternal life in mind.

FreeGrace:

If you will kindly go back to my initial post and review it, I specifically showed that "SALVATION" was the first gift that was included. Salvation itself includes both justification and eternal life. So why would you ask the above question?

Those words are totally different. Consider Matt 22:14, which says that many are called, but few are chosen.

Did you go back and read Romans 8:28-34?
Who is "them who are called according to His purpose?" Are they not the same as the ones who are called "God's elect" in verse 33? Then why do you continue to insist that the called, the elect, and the chosen are not the same?

There are no verses anywhere in Scripture that describes calling as a gift. But justification and eternal life ARE described as gifts.

Everything connected with salvation is A GIFT of God's grace. First of all Christ is God's UNSPEAKABLE GIFT (2 Cor 9:15) to Christians and to the world. If salvation in Christ is a gift, then those who are saved and "called" received that calling as a gift. Please note in Rom 1:6 "Among whom are ye also THE CALLED of Jesus Christ". Did we earn our calling or was it a gift? That's the real issue. Not whether something is tagged as "a gift".

Let's stick with context. Paul had specifically described 2 things as gifts before he penned 11:29. If you don't believe he had those 2 specific things in mind for 11:29, please explain why he couldn't be thinking of them specifically.

Certainly, let's stick with context, but also let's also stick with the whole concept of salvation and ALL the benefits and blessings which come through Christ as God's gifts to the Church and to Israel:

1. Is salvation a gift to every sinner? Then salvation to Israel is also a gift ("all Israel shall be saved").
2. Is the redemption and restoration of Israel a gift, or did they somehow earn it? It goes back to God's UNCONDITIONAL PROMISES to Abraham as a gift (see Gen 15:1-21) where Christ Himself is Abraham's "exceeding great reward" (v 1), all the saved of the earth are God's gift (v. 5), Israel and the land of Israel are God's gift (vv 18-21).
3. Since Christ Himself is God's gift to the world, it follows that Christ as Messiah-King and Deliverer is also God's gift to Israel.
4. Is imputed righteousness a gift to every believer? Then "turning away ungodliness from Jacob" (righteousness) is also a gift to Israel.
5. Is the New Covenant a gift to the Church? Then the New Covenant ("For this is my Covenant unto them") is also a gift to Israel.
6. Is remission of sins a gift to the sinner or is it somehow earned? Then remission of sins is also a gift to Israel ("I shall take away their sins").
7. Is the Gospel a gift to mankind, or did sinners deserve the Gospel?
Then the Gospel is also a gift to Israel ("As concerning the Gospel").
8. We have already touched on Divine election as a gift.
9. Is God's unchanging love a gift to all sinners, or can anyone deserve God's love? Then God's love for Israel is also a gift ("they are beloved").
10. Is God's faithfulness a gift of grace to unfaithful sinners, or can sinners demand faithfulness from God? Then God's faithfulness in fulfilling His promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and David is indeed a gift to Israel ("for the fathers' sakes").

Nothing that comes from God to sinners is not ultimately a gift from God. A gift is something that is given purely because of God's grace. A reward is something which is earned.

 

[dadof10]

First off, this is NOT a thread about eternal vs conditional security, so please, no mention of either OSAS or non-OSAS.

Paul wrote this: "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (NASB) in Rom 11:29. The issue for this thread is to determine what Paul meant by the word "gifts". What gifts did he have in mind? The only way to determine what he was thinking is to look at context.

The Greek word is charisma and is found in the singular in 4 verses, and in the plural 2 times. Whether singular or plural, the meaning of the word does not change.

In the singular:
Rom 1:11 - "For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established" NASB

Rom 5:15-16 - "15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification." NASB

We find 2 uses of "free gift" and 2 uses of 'gift' with the word 'free' attached. In the former, the Greek is charisma, while in the latter, the word is 'dorema', also meaning 'gift'.

Rom 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." NASB

In the plural:

Rom 11:29, which is the subject of this thread.

Rom 12:6 - "Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith" NASB

So, in the singular, Paul notes spiritual gift in 1:11, but in 5:15-16, the gift is seen as justification. In 6:23, Paul says that eternal life is a gift, which is basically the same thing as being justified, since they go together and are based on faith in Christ.

In the plural, Paul does not specifically identify any specific gift in 11:29, but in 12:6, he notes that there are a number of spiritual gifts which are given to believers.

Staying with Paul, outside of Romans he used charisma in the singular in these verses:

1 Cor 7:7 - "Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that." NASB

This indicates various gifts, so referring to spiritual gifts, not eternal life.

2 Cor 1:11 - "you also joining in helping us through your prayers, so that thanks may be given by many persons on our behalf for the favor bestowed on us through the prayers of many." NASB

Here, Paul uses charisma as the favor through the prayers of many. Here, neither eternal life nor spiritual gifts are in view.

1 Tim 4:14 - "Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery." NASB

Clearly, Paul had a spiritual gift in mind regarding Timothy.

2 Tim 1:6 - "For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands." NASB

Again, a reference to a spiritual gift that was given to Timothy.

In the plural, Paul used charisma in these verses:

1 Cor 12:4 - "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit." NASB

Ch 12 is about the use of spiritual gifts, and we find the plural also in vs. 9, 28, 30,31.

Now, just to complete the study of the use of "charisma" in the NT, we find this verse:

1 Peter 4:10 - "As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." NASB

Peter is referring to spiritual gifts here.

Outside of Romans, Paul uses charisma exclusively for spiritual gifts given to believers, except in one use in 2 Cor 1:11. And Peter's single use of charisma refers to spiritual gifts as well.

However, within the context of the letter to the Romans, we must determine Paul's meaning in 11:29, which is about God's gifts being irrevocable.

Here is the issue: if Paul had ONLY in mind spiritual gifts in 11:29, how would one prove that from the epistle?

Or, if Paul was referring to some gifts given to Israel, where in the letter did he specify any gifts to Israel?

If Paul could not have had eternal life in view when he wrote Rom 11:29, please provide solid evidence for that from within the context of Romans.

Again, this thread is NOT about conditional vs eternal security. It is about determining from within the context of the letter to the Romans what Paul had in mind when he wrote 11:29.

I am asking the moderators to delete every post that argues for either OSAS or non-OSAS. This is ONLY about what Paul was referring to in 11:29 in reference to "gifts".

Specifically, what gifts? In Romans, Paul noted that eternal life is a gift (6:23), and justification is a gift (5:15,16). In 1:11 and 12:6, he notes various spiritual gifts given to believers.

So, please prove your view of what Paul had in mind regarding the "gifts" of 11:29.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace:

If you will kindly go back to my initial post and review it, I specifically showed that "SALVATION" was the first gift that was included. Salvation itself includes both justification and eternal life. So why would you ask the above question?

Yes, and I acknowledged 2 of your points as being God's gifts, but not all of the ones you noted.

Did you go back and read Romans 8:28-34?
Who is "them who are called according to His purpose?" Are they not the same as the ones who are called "God's elect" in verse 33? Then why do you continue to insist that the called, the elect, and the chosen are not the same?

Yes, believers in the NT are referred to as "the called". It's technical for those who answered the call. But the very words are different. And Matt 22:14 demonstrates that they are not equivalent.

Everything connected with salvation is A GIFT of God's grace. First of all Christ is God's UNSPEAKABLE GIFT (2 Cor 9:15) to Christians and to the world. If salvation in Christ is a gift, then those who are saved and "called" received that calling as a gift. Please note in Rom 1:6 "Among whom are ye also THE CALLED of Jesus Christ". Did we earn our calling or was it a gift? That's the real issue. Not whether something is tagged as "a gift".

I'm not arguing against salvation being a gift. In fact, because Paul described both justification (5:15,16) and eternal life (6:23) as gifts, yes, those are what salvation is about.

Certainly, let's stick with context, but also let's also stick with the whole concept of salvation and ALL the benefits and blessings which come through Christ as God's gifts to the Church and to Israel:

1. Is salvation a gift to every sinner?

Yes, but received only by those who have believed and therefore received it.

Then salvation to Israel is also a gift ("all Israel shall be saved").

I believe the context for that is the end of the Tribulation, when Jesus physically returns and delivers Israel from its enemies who are poised to attack and destroy Israel.

2. Is the redemption and restoration of Israel a gift, or did they somehow earn it? It goes back to God's UNCONDITIONAL PROMISES to Abraham as a gift (see Gen 15:1-21) where Christ Himself is Abraham's "exceeding great reward" (v 1), all the saved of the earth are God's gift (v. 5), Israel and the land of Israel are God's gift (vv 18-21).
3. Since Christ Himself is God's gift to the world, it follows that Christ as Messiah-King and Deliverer is also God's gift to Israel.
4. Is imputed righteousness a gift to every believer? Then "turning away ungodliness from Jacob" (righteousness) is also a gift to Israel.
5. Is the New Covenant a gift to the Church? Then the New Covenant ("For this is my Covenant unto them") is also a gift to Israel.
6. Is remission of sins a gift to the sinner or is it somehow earned? Then remission of sins is also a gift to Israel ("I shall take away their sins").
7. Is the Gospel a gift to mankind, or did sinners deserve the Gospel?
Then the Gospel is also a gift to Israel ("As concerning the Gospel").
8. We have already touched on Divine election as a gift.
9. Is God's unchanging love a gift to all sinners, or can anyone deserve God's love? Then God's love for Israel is also a gift ("they are beloved").
10. Is God's faithfulness a gift of grace to unfaithful sinners, or can sinners demand faithfulness from God? Then God's faithfulness in fulfilling His promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and David is indeed a gift to Israel ("for the fathers' sakes").

Answer to #2 is no, they did not earn or deserve it.
Answer to #3 is OK, sure.
Answer to #4 is yes, per Rom 5:15,16
Answer to #5 is no. Not really. It's never described that way. As far as remission of sins, that comes ONLY through faith in Christ, per Acts 10:43. It is not ever described as a gift.
Answer to #6 is no. And not a gift either.
Answer to #7 is of course it is.
Answer to #8 is NO, election is never described as a gift.
Answer to #9 is OK, sure.
Answer to #10 is not really, because God's faithfulness is fact, not ever described as a gift.

Nothing that comes from God to sinners is not ultimately a gift from God. A gift is something that is given purely because of God's grace. A reward is something which is earned.

In keeping with the concept of context, I believe we need to focus on what Paul clearly identifies as a gift in order to understand what he was referring to when he penned 11:29.

I have no problem with including Israel in 11:29, but I'd sure not stop there, esp since Paul plainly described both justification and eternal life as gifts.

If one wants to exclude justification and eternal life from 11:29, on what basis can they do it?

 

[Malachi]

Like I said, you are looking for "tags" -- you want the word "gift" attached to a gift before you will believe -- instead of the fact that everything which comes from God as a GIFT of His grace is a gift.

Ask yourself "Was Rebekah a gift from God to Isaac?" Was she tagged as a "gift"? Was the deliverance of Joseph from prison a gift from God? Was it tagged as a "gift"? Was the deliverance of Israel from famine a gift of God to Israel? Was it tagged a "gift"? There is a common saying about not seeing the forest for the trees.

There's also no need to keep repeating that eternal life and justification are gifts. But they are gifts only because Christ and the Holy Spirit are the primary gifts. Everything flows from them. Christ is eternal life (1 Jn 1:2). He is also our "WISDOM, RIGHTEOUSNESS, SANCTIFICATION, AND REDEMPTION" (1 Cor 1:30). Since Christ is the primary gift, everything which will flow to Israel through Christ will also be a gift.

 

[Gregg]

Since Christ is the primary gift, everything which will flow to Israel through Christ will also be a gift.

In your understanding, do you think that the gifts and the calling of God in Rom 11:29 are spoken of there in relation to the NT Church?

​

 

[FreeGrace]

Like I said, you are looking for "tags" -- you want the word "gift" attached to a gift before you will believe -- instead of the fact that everything which comes from God as a GIFT of His grace is a gift.

I haven't said otherwise. The OP is this: if the word "gifts" in Rom 11:29 doesn't include eternal life, please prove from the book of Romans, which is the only context for Paul's use of the word, why it cannot include the gift of eternal life.

It is quite obvious that everything God gives to mankind can be called a gift.

Those who agree that eternal life is included in Rom 11:29 just say so. Those who disagree need to show proof why eternal life cannot be included in Rom 11:29.

That's all.

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace said -

Rom 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." NASB

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. KJV

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NKJV

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NIV

for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord. YLT

However, within the context of the letter to the Romans, we must determine Paul's meaning in 11:29, which is about God's gifts being irrevocable.

Here is the issue: if Paul had ONLY in mind spiritual gifts in 11:29, how would one prove that from the epistle?

Or, if Paul was referring to some gifts given to Israel, where in the letter did he specify any gifts to Israel?

If Paul could not have had eternal life in view when he wrote Rom 11:29, please provide solid evidence for that from within the context of Romans.

Again, this thread is NOT about conditional vs eternal security. It is about determining from within the context of the letter to the Romans what Paul had in mind when he wrote 11:29.

I am asking the moderators to delete every post that argues for either OSAS or non-OSAS. This is ONLY about what Paul was referring to in 11:29 in reference to "gifts".

The Context can be found by going back to Romans 10 -

21 But to Israel he says: "All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people." Romans 10:21

This verse demonstrates God's calling to the Children of Israel.

They are called to be partakers of Christ.

The gifts and talents and supernatural abilities that go along with that calling are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

The calling is God's invitation to Israel to be grafted in.

The calling is God's invitation to partake of Christ, so that they may have the right to become... sons of God. John 1:12



JLB

 

[Gregg]

The Father has not regretted sending His Son and His Spirit, and our calling to Christ for salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. KJV

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NKJV

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NIV

for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord. YLT

Sure enough, eternal life is a gift of God. Which is irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

The Context can be found by going back to Romans 10 -

21 But to Israel he says: "All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people." Romans 10:21

This verse demonstrates God's calling to the Children of Israel.

There is no calling here. Paul identified who the called were in Rom 1:5,6,7, and 8:28,30. Believers.

They are called to be partakers of Christ.

The English word "partaker" is found in Rom 15:27 and a number of times in Hebrews, and means partners. The nation of Israel was NEVER called to be a partner with God.

Unless you can provide verses that specifically indicate such.

The gifts and talents and supernatural abilities that go along with that calling are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

The calling is God's invitation to Israel to be grafted in.

Where do you get that God "invited" Israel to be grafted in. The obvious context of grafting in is by belief. Not by invitation.

The calling is God's invitation to partake of Christ, so that they may have the right to become... sons of God. John 1:12 JLB

Yes, God never revokes His invitation to salvation. Just as He never revokes the salvation.

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace said -

Sure enough, eternal life is a gift of God. Which is irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

Unfortunately for you and your doctrine, Romans 11:29 does not say Eternal life is irrevocable.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29


The calling of God unto salvation to the house of Israel is Irrevocable.

The gifts and talents and abilities that accompany a person's calling is irrevocable.

However eternal life nor salvation are mentioned.

The calling is mentioned, but a person must first believe in order to receive eternal life.

And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Unfortunately for you and your doctrine, Romans 11:29 does not say Eternal life is irrevocable.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

OK. You've previously acknowledged that eternal life is a gift from Rom 6:23. And you acknowledge that the gifts of God are irrevocable. Yet you still believe that eternal life is revocable. Your failure to see the obvious is not my problem.

However, the issue for this OP is to prove from Scripture that Paul did NOT have eternal life in mind when he penned 11:29. You've not done that.

The calling of God unto salvation to the house of Israel is Irrevocable.

God's call unto salvation is irrevocable to Gentiles as well.

The gifts and talents and abilities that accompany a person's calling is irrevocable.

OK.

However eternal life nor salvation are mentioned.

Paul specifically described both justification (which is by faith) and eternal life (which is also by faith) as gifts in Rom 5:15,16 and 6:23.

So, please prove that Paul wasn't including either of those gifts when he penned 11:29.

The calling is mentioned, but a person must first believe in order to receive eternal life.

What does this prove? Paul also specifically referred to BELIEVERS as called in Rom 1:5,6,7 and 8:28 and 30.

And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
JLB

Yes. The point of that verse (v.23) is that the grafting in, which is based on faith in Christ, is irrevocable.

That proves that when one believes, and is justified, saved, and given eternal life, is irrevocable.

You've failed to prove that Paul was excluding eternal life in 11:29.

The point of 11:29 is that ALL of God's gifts to mankind are irrevocable. He doesn't revoke any of them. Including eternal life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

(Romans) 11:29 is an explanation of (Romans) 11:28. This is demonstrated by Paul using the explanatory conjunction "for" at the beginning of the clause.

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. Acts 11:28 (ESV)

This is about the inheritance promised through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Covenant made with Israel. That it hasn't been made null by their present rejection, but that God is going to save ethnic Israel and grant them the promises given to their forefathers.

This says it all.


.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I can't find anywhere in Scripture where God has "gifted" Israel. Sure, He's given Israel a lot of things, but none of them are called gifts.

I can, and I showed it to you, but you rejected it out of hand, accusing me of just plugging 'gift' into a Biblical word search:

"19 "I have given the Levites as a gift to Aaron and to his sons from among the sons of Israel, to perform the service of the sons of Israel at the tent of meeting and to make atonement on behalf of the sons of Israel" (Numbers 8:19 NASB)

From there we can easily see all these other things given to Israel as gifts and promises he has given them:

4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh..." (Romans 9:4-5 NASB)

They did not labor to get these. They are by definition 'gifts' that God gave the people of Israel. None of these have been revoked. Later generations of Israelites will enjoy these to the fullest. God's promised gifts, and calling to walk in those gifts, will never be removed from the Israelites. Never. This is not a promise that a person can not lose the gift of salvation. We know that individual Israelites did in fact lose the gifts and callings listed above. But the nation as a whole will never lose the promise of those gifts and calling.

 

[FreeGrace]

This says it all..

Yes, Rom 11:29 says it all. The gifts of God are irrevocable. Not just some of them, or Paul would have specified.

Eternal life is a gift from God. As is justification. These gifts are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

I can, and I showed it to you, but you rejected it out of hand, accusing me of just plugging 'gift' into a Biblical word search:

"19 "I have given the Levites as a gift to Aaron and to his sons from among the sons of Israel, to perform the service of the sons of Israel at the tent of meeting and to make atonement on behalf of the sons of Israel" (Numbers 8:19 NASB)

From there we can easily see all these other things given to Israel as gifts and promises he has given them:

4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh..." (Romans 9:4-5 NASB)

They did not labor to get these. They are by definition 'gifts' that God gave the people of Israel. None of these have been revoked. Later generations of Israelites will enjoy these to the fullest. God's promised gifts, and calling to walk in those gifts, will never be removed from the Israelites. Never. This is not a promise that a person can not lose the gift of salvation. We know that individual Israelites did in fact lose the gifts and callings listed above. But the nation as a whole will never lose the promise of those gifts and calling.

I have no problem with calling the things God has given to Israel as gifts. But since Paul earlier in his epistle described both justification and eternal life as gifts, the OP is about either accepting that these 2 gifts are included in the gifts that are irrevocable from Rom 11:29, OR, prove that Paul never intended to say that eternal life is irrevocable.

Can you do that?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You have to first show us that there are Israelites who have the gifts of justification and eternal life, but who then became unbelieving, Christ rejecting Israelites but who still have the free gift of justification and eternal life despite their rejection of Christ before you can argue that they prove everybody who receives the free gift of salvation will always have it and can not lose it.

In context, Paul is talking about a future generation of Israelites who will respond to the calling and receive the free gift of salvation. He will bring it to pass one day in a later generation of Israelites. But you are trying to make the passage say that there are unbelieving, Christ rejecting Israelites who were once saved but later stopped believing, but who are still saved. If that's true, who are these Israelites that had eternal life, but who then did not believe, but who still have eternal life? If you're honest, I think you'll see that your argument amounts to nothing more than circular reasoning.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...since Paul earlier in his epistle described both justification and eternal life as gifts, the OP is about either accepting that these 2 gifts are included in the gifts that are irrevocable from Rom 11:29, OR, prove that Paul never intended to say that eternal life is irrevocable.

Can you do that?

Already did.

As I say you have to first show us Israelites who had the free gifts of justification and eternal life, but who then did not believe anymore to prove your thesis that he's talking about those two specific gifts in regard to the Israelites in Romans 11:28-29. Can you do that? I don't think so.

 

[FreeGrace]

You have to first show us that there are Israelites who have the gifts of justification and eternal life, but who then became unbelieving, Christ rejecting Israelites but who still have the free gift of justification and eternal life despite their rejection of Christ before you can argue that they prove everybody who receives the free gift of salvation will always have it and can not lose it.

Huh?? No I don't. If eternal life is not irrevocable, the burden of proof is on you solely.

This is the basis of the OP:
1. Rom 6:23 eternal life is a gift.
2. God's gifts are irrevocable.

So, if eternal life, which is a gift, is revocable, prove it. Prove that Paul did not include that specific gift when he penned Rom 11:29.

If you believe that eternal life is revocable, you must show that Paul excluded that specific gift from 11:29.

In context, Paul is talking about a future generation of Israelites who will respond to the calling and receive the free gift of salvation. He will bring it to pass one day in a later generation of Israelites.

I have no problem with this. Your challenge is to prove that Paul excluded eternal life from the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

But you are trying to make the passage say that there are unbelieving, Christ rejecting Israelites who were once saved but later stopped believing, but who are still saved.

I'm not trying to make the passage say anything. The OP points out these facts:
1. eternal life is a gift per Rom 6:23
2. God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29

If the gift of eternal life is revocable, the burden of proof is on you to show where Paul excluded that specific gift from 11:29.

If that's true, who are these Israelites that had eternal life, but who then did not believe, but who still have eternal life? If you're honest, I think you'll see that your argument amounts to nothing more than circular reasoning.

I have no idea what you think I need to show. I've shown you very clear Scripture:

1. Eternal life is a gift. Rom 6:23
2. God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

If you believe that eternal life, a gift from God, is revocable, please prove it from Romans, where Paul wrote both Rom 6:23 and 11:29.

The burden is on you. I have nothing to prove. The fact is clear: God's gifts are irrevocable.

If any of God's gifts are revocable, the burden of proof is on you completely.