Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace,
We've discussed the being sealed. Do you even read my replies?

Since I generally reply line by line to your posts, most people wouldn't even think to ask such a question. Maybe you're not the one who is reading replies. lol

Should I just repeat myself and bore everyone to tears?
In any case, Ephesians 4:30 says that they WERE sealed, it doesn't say the ARE sealed. It only means that they were sealed for the day of redemption.

Seriously?? Apparently the phrase "FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION" has some 'otherwordly' meaning to you. The sealing is FOR the day of redemption. That phrase ALONE demonstrates eternal security.

If they remain sealed, they will live with God at the day of redemption in the glorified body. You seem to agree with me from what you state above.

The problem with your statement here is the phrase "if they remain sealed". There has been NOTHING presented from Scripture that shows that anyone has EVER been unsealed.

This is why I continually challenge posters that they haven't presented any evidence for their opinions. No evidence. Unless someone presents verses that very obviously teach that God breaks this particular seal, there is NO REASON to believe that He has, or ever will.

When the sealing with the Holy Spirit comes up, the anti-OSASer's default to some inanimate kind of seal, which just totally ignores the reality of the subject of God's sealing with the Holy Spirit.

I've already discussed how letters were sealed with messages that could be rescinded.

There it is again!!! Letters and wax seals are totally IRRELEVANT to the subject of the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

Please provide a verse that states not to worry about losing salvation since the N.T. I read IMPLORES me to live a good life and TO DO all that Jesus and Paul and the others asked, no stealing, no fornication, no blaspheming, and more.
1 Thessalonians 4:7-8
Ephesians 5:19-21

So, go ahead and confuse and conflate getting saved with spiritual growth. That'll be your problem, not mine.

I went back to get the verses. They are:
Hebrews 3:12-19
Hebrews 6:4-6

You say they prove nothing.

Go back and read my post. I said they prove nothing unless they are explained. How do I know how you're understanding them?

Once again a perfect example of ASSUMPTION. The anti-OSAS crowd assumes a lot to come to their conclusions.

Hebrews 3:12-19

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.
14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
15 As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?
17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?
19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

You believe - you enter.
You don't believe - you don't enter.

And that's true. Are you aware that even Moses couldn't enter "becaue of (his) unbelief? What are you going to do with that one?

He appeared on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus. Just maybe, you've totally misunderstood what Heb 3:19 is really about.

 

[smaller]

You can "think" whatever you like.

This is why those who teach "false doctrine" are condemned, because they lead the innocent into error, which is putting a stumbling block, before the babes in Christ.

Nobody teaches perfect doctrine.

These false teachings come from a mind and a conscience that is defiled.

I'd suggest defilement is a universal fact.

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23, Matt. 5:28, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:21.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"If so, please explain how so.

That shouldn't preclude an explanation of all three.

OK, so even easier. Only 2 to define and explain how they are "very different".

Not really. The 5th point is really perseverance of the saints, which defies clear Scripture about falling away from the faith.

But, looking forward to your explanations."

You really need to adjust your replies.
The above MAKES NO SENSE to those reading along.

The problem is this website. When responding to a post, the comments "in quote" do not carry forward, as in other websites, so the context is LOST. If the whole post had been carried forward, each of my comments would be easily understood.

It's referring to a discussion I had with someone else in post no. 384. Here it is:

Hi Mike,
This may have been answered already. This thread is zipping along.

I just wanted to say that I denote a difference between eternal security or OSAS
and eternal life.

Eternal life is the life Jesus gives us. We weill be resurrected and have eternal life with Him. HE gives us eternal life. It begins here on earth - He is the life in us. If we remain in Him we will have eternal life with him in heaven. Hell is death, not life.

John 11:25-26
Jesus is the resurrrection and the life. Whoever believes (always the present tense!) in Him shall live even if he dies; the body dies, but we keep on living in Him.

2 Timothy 1:10
Our Savior Jesus Christ has abolished death (everlasting death and death of the Spirit in us) and has brought light and immortality through the gospel.

1 John 5:13
John has written his letters so that who believes (again, present tense) in the name of the Son of God shall have eternal life.

There are 3 deaths: Physical, spiritual, eternal.
Life is also physical, spiritual and eternal.

Wondering

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

The above explains ETERNAL LIFE.

ETERNAL SECURITY AND OSAS is the same concept.
Eternal Security is the 5th point of Calvin and is the same as Perseverance of the Saints.
You could check this online.
I'm more than certain you know the meaning of this.

Wondering

Are you aware that by having eternal life, one cannot EVER experience the lake of fire, also called the "second death"?

Are you aware that there are NO verses about how to lose eternal life?

Are you aware that if eternal life is true (and it is), then it cannot die, nor can it be "lost", whatever that may mean.

Eternal life is God's very life. It goes on forever. Those who have received it cannot perish in the lake of fire.

Those who truly understand what eternal life is, understand eternal security. Those who don't, won't.

 

[smaller]

According to John, the Jews who had believed in Jesus were devils. (you are of your father the devil John 8:44) They couldn't bear to hear his word, could not understand, took up stones to throw at him (John 8 :59) Just goes to show even devils can believe for a while, but eventually they do fall away.

An unfortunate sight above.

You might consider Mark 4:15 happened to them.

 

[FreeGrace]

Sorry FreeGrace.
I'm sorry to say my efforts are of no value except for some that may be reading these posts.

Keep reading the N.T.

Wondering

Well, this is surely typical of your side. I requested your analysis verse by verse of a passage in which I gave a verse by verse analysis, since you disagreed with my analysis.

So, instead of doing that, I get this worthless post. Your efforts are of no value ONLY BECAUSE you've NOT done what is needed. Which is to analyze 1 Thess 5:4-10 verse by verse to SHOW ME how my analysis doesn't lead to my conclusion of what v.10 is saying.

But you can't do this, so you "punt" instead. Very typical of those on your side.

 

[FreeGrace]

According to John, the Jews who had believed in Jesus were devils. (you are of your father the devil John 8:44)

Not true. Jesus was speaking to a crowd of Pharisees, beginning in John 8:12. Jesus continues to address these Pharisees as seen in the pronoun "they" in v.19, "them" in v.21, "the Jews" in v.22, "they" in v.25, v.27. Then, John is very clear about to WHOM Jesus is speaking in v.30 and v.31 by the phrases "many put their faith in Him" and "to the Jews who had believed Him". These are John signature phrases for indicating people that are saved by faith in Him.

Then, in v.33 we find again the pronoun "they", which refers back to the original "they" as found in the above noted verses. So, even though Jesus addressed the new believers in v.31 and 32, it was the unbelieving Jews and Pharisees that responded to what Jesus said to the new believers. And we know this from the fact of what Jesus said about the "they" or "them" in 8:45: "Yet because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me".

So, those to whom He addressed from v.33 forward cannot be the same people that believed in v.30-31.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Or what, specifically? Where does the Bible say anything about losing salvation or eternal life if one doesn't?"
I've already explained what a "litotes" is. So your continued ignorance of what it is and how it is used is your own problem completely.

Now, where is the evidence that anyone HAS EVER been "blotted out" of the book of life?

Your continued denial of the warnings of Jesus Christ, are well noted by those who teach the truth, on this forum.

Please provide clear evidence for this outrageous and WRONG claim, or apologize for it, as it is totally untrue.

I am well aware of ALL the warnings of Scripture. It's your side that repeatedly misunderstands and twists the warning into loss of salvation.

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;


Are you saying it is impossible to be blotted out of the book of life?

1.Yes, its possible to be blotted out of the book of life.
2.No, it's impossible to be blotted out of the book of life.

As I requested before, please provide any clear Scripture that says that anyone HAS EVER been blotted out of the book of life, or can be for any reason.
I'm not interested in opinions, guesswork, or anything other than clear evidence from Scripture, which has NOT been provided yet.

I say, with all boldness: Yes, according to Jesus, it is very possible for a person to get blotted out of the book of Life.


What say you?

I say that you don't know what Jesus even said.

 

[MarkT]

Not true. Jesus was speaking to a crowd of Pharisees, beginning in John 8:12. Jesus continues to address these Pharisees as seen in the pronoun "they" in v.19, "them" in v.21, "the Jews" in v.22, "they" in v.25, v.27. Then, John is very clear about to WHOM Jesus is speaking in v.30 and v.31 by the phrases "many put their faith in Him" and "to the Jews who had believed Him". These are John signature phrases for indicating people that are saved by faith in Him.

Then, in v.33 we find again the pronoun "they", which refers back to the original "they" as found in the above noted verses. So, even though Jesus addressed the new believers in v.31 and 32, it was the unbelieving Jews and Pharisees that responded to what Jesus said to the new believers. And we know this from the fact of what Jesus said about the "they" or "them" in 8:45: "Yet because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me".

So, those to whom He addressed from v.33 forward cannot be the same people that believed in v.30-31.

It makes no sense to add stuff like signature phrases and being saved.

Jesus was speaking to the crowd (the people of Jerusalem). John 7:25 The Pharisees didn't believe in him, but many Jews did. John 7:31 As he spoke thus, many believed in him. John 8:30 Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him - 31 Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” That's when he said, 'yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you.' 8:37 He said this to the Jews who had believed - "If God was your Father you would love me". They didn't understand because they were devils. This is what he said, "You are of your father the devil." The Jews then took up stones to throw at him. vs. 59

My point is they were devils, and even devils can believe. Note how they turned on him when he said, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do what Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God; this is not what Abraham did. 41 You do what your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.45 But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” John 8:39-47

 

[FreeGrace]

It makes no sense to add stuff like signature phrases and being saved.

Well, I'm sorry that it doesn't make sense to you. But I explained WHY Jesus wasn't referring to those from v.30-32 when he was quoted from v.44 and v.45.

It seems what makes more sense to you is that while John described "many" as believing in Christ, Jesus contradicts what John said.

Now, how does that make any sense?

Jesus was speaking to the crowd (the people of Jerusalem). John 7:25 The Pharisees didn't believe in him, but many Jews did. John 7:31 As he spoke thus, many believed in him. John 8:30 Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him - 31 Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” That's when he said, 'yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you.' 8:37 He said this to the Jews who had believed - "If God was your Father you would love me". They didn't understand because they were devils. This is what he said, "You are of your father the devil." The Jews then took up stones to throw at him. vs. 59

I've already explained exactly WHY His statements in v.44 and 45 were NOT directed to those who had believed in Him in v.30-31, but to the unbelieving Jews and Pharisees.

If there is disagreement, please address the verses I used to support my claim.

My point is they were devils, and even devils can believe.

Are you seriously claiming that the crowd were fallen angels??? How does that make any sense? It doesn't.

And devils DON'T believe. They simply know. From experience (sight). Not from faith.

Note how they turned on him when he said, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do what Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God; this is not what Abraham did. 41 You do what your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.45 But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” John 8:39-47

Sure. They were unbelievers, and NOT those referenced to in v.30-31.

John directly said they put their faith in Him. If that doesn't move you, I guess you're just not going to be moved.

But, I believe what John wrote. Those in v.30-31 believed and were saved. From v.33 to the end of the chapter is directed to the unbelieving Jews prior to v.30.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'd suggest your reading comprehension on the subject matter is off.

Believers are very fond of "excusing and covering up" the facts that they are sinners when the fact of the matter is exactly NO ONE stopped being a sinner to begin with. Romans 7:17-21, Romans 8:3, Gal. 5:17, 1 Tim. 1:15.

We SHOULD fully and EAGERLY expect the DIREST JUDGMENT upon our own SIN.

Even WELCOME it!

When it comes to applying "dire judgments" personally most believers run like a bunch of quivering cowards.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

When it comes to the most DIRE JUDGMENTS if we had any sense a'tall we'd be standing, FIRST in LINE:

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Smaller,
§Saying my reading comprehension is off is a bit insulting, especially when directed at me. I happen to be extremely well-versed in the English language.

Believers will be judged by Jesus on their good works and go to eternal life.
Those who do not do good works will go to eternal punishment.
Mathew 25:46
Romans 2:6-11

So I'm not really worried if I'm first on line or not - it makes no difference.
What makes the difference is following Jesus' lead and trusting in Him since we are all sinners.

Your reply did not directly address my statement to you.
No one here is condemning anyone. There are, however, many warnings in the N.T. regarding our salvation.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I include my own quotes for CONTEXT, so that my replies to other posters will make MORE SENSE. Those who don't like context and making MORE SENSE out of things do not have to participate.

Who brought it up?

This has been claimed like a broken record. Where is the evidence for your claims?

I'm not interested in anyone's opinion, but whatever actual evidence they may have that supports their claims. And I've not seen any from the anti-OSAS crowd.

And I'm not interested in whatever you're not here to discuss. If it's just all Greek to you, then simply don't respond to my posts.

It clearly is NOT understood among the anti-OSAS crowd.

Congrats! Do husbands and wives always have "communion" with each other? Of course not. Do parents and their children always have "communion" with each other? Again, of course not.

The same is true in the spiritual realm.

Have you ever done a word study on the word "fellowship"? Here are some facts:
NIV - 11 times
NASB - 12 times
KJV - 15 times

It's a common word and needs to be understood.

No, the Bible is trying to tell you that. But your question treats loss of fellowship rather casually, or flippantly.

If a wife isn't having fellowship with her husband, will she be content and feel fulfilled? Of course not.

Sure. Now, your turn. Do you realize that communion involves cooperation?

Why is that important? Because Jesus said this:
John 15:5-7
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. ESV

Do you think bearing "much fruit" is an important thing to do?
Do you think that having whatever you ask for will be done for you?

Now, do you believe that God will reward people for faithful, obedient service, or is that just the way to get into heaven?

These are seriously important questions, which I hope will be answered.


Again, your flippant attitude towards the idea of fellowship is obvious. It's not an "only" situation. Here's what you'll lose:
1. blessings in time. Is that not a big thing for you? Do you think losing God's blessings in time is no big deal?
2. lose eternal reward. Is that not a big thing for you? Does "reigning with Christ" interest you? Those who aren't interested are seriously flawed. However, no believer will reign with Christ unless they have "endured", according to Paul in 2 Tim 2:12.
3. will experience God's discipline, according to Heb 12:5. Is that not a big thing for you?

These 3 things are HUGE, yet the anti-OSAS crowd merely dismisses them as insignificant or treats them as mere "slap on the hand" kind of reaction.

1. As one who has believed in Christ, you are born again, with a new nature, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and God is faithful even when we aren't and WILL NOT deny Himself, according to 2 Tim 2:13.
2. As God's child, you have an eternal inheritance, meaning a place in heaven to be with Him.

Where does the Bible teach that any of this can be taken away? Nowhere is where.

This sarcastic question is beyond the pale.

I refer you to 1 Cor 3:14,15.

Then you should agree with the 3 tenses of salvation.

Sure. The present tense of salvation is progressive sanctification and may not even occur. But don't forget the past tense; we HAVE BEEN saved from the PENALTY of sin. Your view denies that.

Not really. They believe that they may NOT ultimately be saved, unless they fulfill the sacraments. They believe that "Christ did His part in dying for us", but "they must do THEIR PART" in order to be saved.

That isn't anything like what I've EVER believed.

So your conclusion is mighty faulty.

1. FELLOWSHIP:

A husband and wife could be divorced and that would end the relationship and fellowship.

2. Parents and children could be estranged and the child written OUT OF THE TESTAMENT. That would end fellowship and anything else that might be gained from being a son/daughter, including inheritance.

3. Catholics believe you get Grace from the sacraments.
They believe salvation is attained by Ephesians 2:8.
It is by faith in Christ.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I include my own quotes for CONTEXT, so that my replies to other posters will make MORE SENSE. Those who don't like context and making MORE SENSE out of things do not have to participate.

Who brought it up?

This has been claimed like a broken record. Where is the evidence for your claims?

I'm not interested in anyone's opinion, but whatever actual evidence they may have that supports their claims. And I've not seen any from the anti-OSAS crowd.

And I'm not interested in whatever you're not here to discuss. If it's just all Greek to you, then simply don't respond to my posts.

It clearly is NOT understood among the anti-OSAS crowd.

Congrats! Do husbands and wives always have "communion" with each other? Of course not. Do parents and their children always have "communion" with each other? Again, of course not.

The same is true in the spiritual realm.

Have you ever done a word study on the word "fellowship"? Here are some facts:
NIV - 11 times
NASB - 12 times
KJV - 15 times

It's a common word and needs to be understood.

No, the Bible is trying to tell you that. But your question treats loss of fellowship rather casually, or flippantly.

If a wife isn't having fellowship with her husband, will she be content and feel fulfilled? Of course not.

Sure. Now, your turn. Do you realize that communion involves cooperation?

Why is that important? Because Jesus said this:
John 15:5-7
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. ESV

Do you think bearing "much fruit" is an important thing to do?
Do you think that having whatever you ask for will be done for you?

Now, do you believe that God will reward people for faithful, obedient service, or is that just the way to get into heaven?

These are seriously important questions, which I hope will be answered.

Again, your flippant attitude towards the idea of fellowship is obvious. It's not an "only" situation. Here's what you'll lose:
1. blessings in time. Is that not a big thing for you? Do you think losing God's blessings in time is no big deal?
2. lose eternal reward. Is that not a big thing for you? Does "reigning with Christ" interest you? Those who aren't interested are seriously flawed. However, no believer will reign with Christ unless they have "endured", according to Paul in 2 Tim 2:12.
3. will experience God's discipline, according to Heb 12:5. Is that not a big thing for you?

These 3 things are HUGE, yet the anti-OSAS crowd merely dismisses them as insignificant or treats them as mere "slap on the hand" kind of reaction.

1. As one who has believed in Christ, you are born again, with a new nature, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and God is faithful even when we aren't and WILL NOT deny Himself, according to 2 Tim 2:13.
2. As God's child, you have an eternal inheritance, meaning a place in heaven to be with Him.

Where does the Bible teach that any of this can be taken away? Nowhere is where.

This sarcastic question is beyond the pale.

I refer you to 1 Cor 3:14,15.

Then you should agree with the 3 tenses of salvation.

Sure. The present tense of salvation is progressive sanctification and may not even occur. But don't forget the past tense; we HAVE BEEN saved from the PENALTY of sin. Your view denies that.

Not really. They believe that they may NOT ultimately be saved, unless they fulfill the sacraments. They believe that "Christ did His part in dying for us", but "they must do THEIR PART" in order to be saved.

That isn't anything like what I've EVER believed.

So your conclusion is mighty faulty.

P.S.
You have some quotes in red ink.

I think it would be a good idea if you learned what it means TO ABIDE.
Do it in English.

Do you think persons who have abandoned Christ are ABIDING in Christ?

You Abide - You're saved
You DON'T Abide - You're not saved

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Since I generally reply line by line to your posts, most people wouldn't even think to ask such a question. Maybe you're not the one who is reading replies. lol

Seriously?? Apparently the phrase "FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION" has some 'otherwordly' meaning to you. The sealing is FOR the day of redemption. That phrase ALONE demonstrates eternal security.

The problem with your statement here is the phrase "if they remain sealed". There has been NOTHING presented from Scripture that shows that anyone has EVER been unsealed.

This is why I continually challenge posters that they haven't presented any evidence for their opinions. No evidence. Unless someone presents verses that very obviously teach that God breaks this particular seal, there is NO REASON to believe that He has, or ever will.

When the sealing with the Holy Spirit comes up, the anti-OSASer's default to some inanimate kind of seal, which just totally ignores the reality of the subject of God's sealing with the Holy Spirit.

There it is again!!! Letters and wax seals are totally IRRELEVANT to the subject of the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

So, go ahead and confuse and conflate getting saved with spiritual growth. That'll be your problem, not mine.

Go back and read my post. I said they prove nothing unless they are explained. How do I know how you're understanding them?

Once again a perfect example of ASSUMPTION. The anti-OSAS crowd assumes a lot to come to their conclusions.

And that's true. Are you aware that even Moses couldn't enter "becaue of (his) unbelief? What are you going to do with that one?

He appeared on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus. Just maybe, you've totally misunderstood what Heb 3:19 is really about.

1. Not only did I go through your scripture line by line, but I went beyond it since that is the ONLY way to understand what you posted.
2. What you don't like to hear is irrelevant. Interesting.
3. Getting saved: JUSTIFICATION
Spiritual growth: SANCTIFICATION

Please learn the difference and how you cooperate with sanctification. It's of no value if God tells you TO DO something, and you tell Him, NO, I won't do it. Your spiritual growth is halted.

4. YOU know why Moses wasn't allowed to enter the Promised Land?
You must be very knowledgeable. There is debate regarding this in theological circles.

Maybe it was due to unbelief.
Maybe it was due to mistrust.
Maybe it was due to pride.

5. The OSAS side assumes a lot and twists a lot of words and phrases to come to their conclusion.
They just don't know how to take scripture at FACE VALUE.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I said this:
"If so, please explain how so.

That shouldn't preclude an explanation of all three.

OK, so even easier. Only 2 to define and explain how they are "very different".

Not really. The 5th point is really perseverance of the saints, which defies clear Scripture about falling away from the faith.

But, looking forward to your explanations."

Perseverance of the saints and eternal security IS the same idea.
Did you not google this??

Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return
http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

The problem is this website. When responding to a post, the comments "in quote" do not carry forward, as in other websites, so the context is LOST. If the whole post had been carried forward, each of my comments would be easily understood.

I see.

Are you aware that by having eternal life, one cannot EVER experience the lake of fire, also called the "second death"?

Are you aware that there are NO verses about how to lose eternal life?

Are you aware that if eternal life is true (and it is), then it cannot die, nor can it be "lost", whatever that may mean.

Eternal life is God's very life. It goes on forever. Those who have received it cannot perish in the lake of fire.

Those who truly understand what eternal life is, understand eternal security. Those who don't, won't.

Eternal Life
and
Eternal Security
are two totally different ideas which you are getting mixed up.

I've already explained them TWICE to you, so I won't do it again a third time.

However, I do recommend that you learn the difference.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, this is surely typical of your side. I requested your analysis verse by verse of a passage in which I gave a verse by verse analysis, since you disagreed with my analysis.

So, instead of doing that, I get this worthless post. Your efforts are of no value ONLY BECAUSE you've NOT done what is needed. Which is to analyze 1 Thess 5:4-10 verse by verse to SHOW ME how my analysis doesn't lead to my conclusion of what v.10 is saying.

But you can't do this, so you "punt" instead. Very typical of those on your side.

Analysis was given, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-10 and beyond. You love to repeat yourself.
Posts are never worthless. There are those reading along to whom they make sense and are accepted.

It seems useless to show you anything.
If you cannot trust Jesus and Paul and James and Peter and Jude, why should you trust me??
They all say salvation can be lost.
2 Peter 2:20.22

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

1. FELLOWSHIP:

A husband and wife could be divorced and that would end the relationship and fellowship.

Since God's plan from the beginning was married for life, and no divorce, your example isn't relevant. There is no evidence in Scripture that God "divorces" any of His children.

In God's economy, a man and woman are in relationship for life.
Gen 2:24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. NIV
Matt 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. KJV
Mark 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. KJV

2. Parents and children could be estranged and the child written OUT OF THE TESTAMENT. That would end fellowship and anything else that might be gained from being a son/daughter, including inheritance.

Again, your example is not relevant, since there are no verses about God writing any of His children outy of the testament.

The reason I use the parent-child example to show PERMANENT relationship is because no one can undo their birth. Once born, the parents will always be the parents and the child will always by their child.

3. Catholics believe you get Grace from the sacraments.

I don't care. Grace comes from God.

They believe salvation is attained by Ephesians 2:8.
It is by faith in Christ.
Wondering

I've already explained what they believe, which is totally different than my beliefs.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think it would be a good idea if you learned what it means TO ABIDE.
Do it in English.

Why? None of the NT writers wrote in English. I thought that was common knowledge.

Do you think persons who have abandoned Christ are ABIDING in Christ?

Of course not. They are out of fellowship and headed for God's discipline.

You Abide - You're saved
You DON'T Abide - You're not saved
Wondering

Well, after reading John 15, it seems your theology is of the yo-yo variety. Abide, not abide, abide, not abide.

The whole purpose for abiding is to produce fruit. Apart from abiding, one cannot produce fruit.

And you've still not given any evidence for your claim that to "abide" is to be saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

1. Not only did I go through your scripture line by line, but I went beyond it since that is the ONLY way to understand what you posted.

What post # did you explain 1 Thess 5:4-10??

2. What you don't like to hear is irrelevant. Interesting.

No, what I don't like to hear is opinion that is not supported or evidenced by Scripture.

3. Getting saved: JUSTIFICATION
Spiritual growth: SANCTIFICATION

Please learn the difference and how you cooperate with sanctification. It's of no value if God tells you TO DO something, and you tell Him, NO, I won't do it. Your spiritual growth is halted.

Of course it is halted if that's one's attitude.

And of course I fully know that progressive sanctification requires cooperation. That's what abiding is all about. Co-operation.

4. YOU know why Moses wasn't allowed to enter the Promised Land?
You must be very knowledgeable. There is debate regarding this in theological circles.

Maybe it was due to unbelief.
Maybe it was due to mistrust.
Maybe it was due to pride.

It was directly because of his disobedience when God told him to speak to the rock for water to come out, but he struck the rock.

However, you've sidestepped (dodged) my point about your misunderstanding of Heb 3:19.

 

[LovethroughDove]

The Holy Spirit was not given to believers UNTIL the Day of Pentecost. See Acts 2. When Jesus stated John 14, He was speaking of that future day. By the time of Acts 10, all who believed received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.


The Bible very directly says that some HAVE. Jesus plainly stated that the second soil "believed for a while" and then "fell away". And Paul told Timothy: The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
1 Tim 4:1 NIV

This could not be describing unbelievers because unbelievers cannot "abandon the faith". They were never IN the faith.


There is no such thing. To be "in the faith" means to be a believer. And to be a believer means to be born again.

Please provide clearly worded Scripture that supports your claim.

You are convinced that everyone in the faith is born again. Not the case. The letters to the churches are warnings about where people are seated in the faith. Warnings of being cast out because of the path they are taking.

Ephesus - Revelation 2:5 Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lamp stand from its place

Smyrna - 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Thyatira - 2:22-23 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Sardis - 3:4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.

Philadelphia - 3:7 These are words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. These are Born Agains.

Laodicea - 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm - neither cold nor hot - I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Obviously people weren't/aren't understanding the gospel, nor were/are they following the truth of the gospel.........he had/has to rebuke the churches for what they did/do. The churches created quasi-believers.

This includes the Parable of the Sower. There are people receiving the Word of God in the churches and it doesn't stick to create the born again Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

Perseverance of the saints and eternal security IS the same idea.
Did you not google this??

Perseverance of the saints is about the saints persevering in the faith. Just read the wording of TULIP.

Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return
http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

This paragraph certainly is about eternal security. But that's not what I've read about the "P" in TULIP. However, why don't you believe what this paragraph says?

Eternal Life
and
Eternal Security
are two totally different ideas which you are getting mixed up.

You are confused about what I understand.