Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[GodsGrace]

Lol, look at what you said.
You said he added no condition for the BELIEVER to never perish.
I see this all the time. OSASer's who use scriptures that have in them the very thing they are refuting.

Hi Jethro,
It's easy to get mixed up when straying from the logical doctrine found in scripture.

I'd like to say this to FreeGrace regarding John 10:28 :
Do we believe in heaven and in hell?
How about annihilation?

Annihilationists use John 10:28 as support scripture for their doctrine.
The good and saved will go to heaven,
The bad and unsaved will be annihilated. No hell exists.

This is why we cannot take one verse out of all of the N.T.
(but I guess it's fun)

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

How am I doing the same thing when I accept words and phrases at face value without twisting them around??

The anti-OSAS crowd hasn't proven their meaning of "face value".

OSAS believers have their very own meaning for many biblical words and concepts.
Possess and hold onto means two different things for them.

We know the Greek word means to possess.

Falling away doesn't really mean falling away.

Yes it does. It just doesn't mean "loss of salvation", as assumed by the anti-OSAS crowd.

They substitute loss of fellowship for loss of salvation.

There is no substitution. The FACT that fellowship is a biblical word and concept is dismissed by the anti-OSAS crowd.

Burning in fire means something different from destruction

No it doesn't. The issue is what "fire" means in any given passage. Unless the word "fire" includes "eternal" or "unquenchable", there is NO REASON to assume it is referring to hell.

Believe (present tense) somehow means past, present and future because some here fancy themselves to be professors of kolne Greek

Do you disagree that there is past, present and future concept regarding salvation? Seriously?

Past tense: we HAVE been saved from the penalty of sin. This is justification. Disagree with this?
Present tense: we ARE BEING saved from the power of sin. This is sanctification. Disagree with this?
Future tense: we WILL BE saved from the presence of sin. This is glorification. Disagree with this?

For any of these tenses regarding salvation, if there is disagreement, please explain why. Thanks.

 

[MarkT]

Again, unless the word "fire" is attached to either "eternal" or "unquenchable", there is no reason to assume the word refers to hell.

It's God's fire. God's fire is eternal. When Jesus says 'fire' you can be sure the fire is eternal and unquenchable. I don't know of another fire except fire from God.

 

[FreeGrace]

How about a priest. Do you think priests don't have the Holy Spirit? THEN, in later life, they lose it.

How would anyone know whether any priest even has the Holy Spirit. And how would anyone know whether anyone has lost the Holy Spirit. Such a view MUST of necessity disregard Eph 1:13,14, 4:40.
Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph 4:30
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. NASU

These verses SAY that "having believed" (obviously not present tense) we WERE SEALED (obviously not present tense) in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, given as a promise of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, sealed for the day of redemption.

That is clearly about eternal security.

Please provide any NT verse that teaches that this particular seal has been, or can be broken by any means.

Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 3:12-19

and others.
Wondering

This proves nothing. Please provide explanation of verses provided, as I have.

 

[FreeGrace]

They are not exactly the same.
They are very different, in fact.

If so, please explain how so.

I only explained eternal life because OSAS is understood by everyone and is the same as eternal security.

That shouldn't preclude an explanation of all three.

So, there are only two.
Eternal life
and Eternal Security OR OSAS.

OK, so even easier. Only 2 to define and explain how they are "very different".

If you check, you'll find that eternal security is the 5th point of the Calvinist tulip and the same as OSAS.

Not really. The 5th point is really perseverance of the saints, which defies clear Scripture about falling away from the faith.

But, looking forward to your explanations.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"But the Bible says that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Other verses say that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I see no difference.

Now, where does the Bible say or teach that it is US who has to "hold on to" the Holy Spirit? I haven't found any. And I have been reading through monthly for over 10 years."

Keep reading. You've got a long way to go. We're always learning - every day.

So, you've been reading through the NT monthly for lots longer than 10 years, huh? Very good for you. But you keep missing my point.

We're sealed with the Holy Spirit. I already explained to you how messages were sent by sealing the envelope back then. The message in the envelope could be UNDONE, "unsealed" if you wish. But it's nonsense to take one verse out of context such as you do.

I continue to be bored with this line of thinking. Because it has NO RELEVANCE to being sealed with the Holy Spirit. It seems you've confused an inanimate object with the Holy Spirit Himself. There is no comparison. So your attempt to equate an inanimate object with the Holy Spirit is rather disingenuous.

The Holy Spirit will NOT leave us.

Those who pay attention to Eph 1;13,14 and 4:30 know that this sealing with the Holy Spirit is for the day of redemption, and is a promise. Which means this sealing is one of the proofs of eternal security. We are sealed for the day of redemption. And since you've indicated that you're far ahead of me in how much you've read through the NT, obviously you would know that there are NO VERSES about this particular seal ever being broken for any reason.

But WE could leave the Holy Spirit.

I do not accept this claim. There are no verses that say this.

I just gave Chessman two quotes.

Here:
Hebrews 6:46
Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV /
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Revelation 2:4-5 ESV /
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Hebrews 3:12-19 ESV /
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? ...

Romans 11:19-22 ESV /
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Many more...

How come none of these verses say anything about a person "leaving the Holy Spirit"? And there are no verses that even address such a thing.

It seems so clear.

Only when applying tons and tons of assumption to the verses.

No Greek necessary...
Wondering

Well, without Greek, we wouldn't even have the NT. So i respectfully disagree with your opinion.

 

[FreeGrace]

Oh my goodness. I am stuck theologically right in the middle between you and people who say you can have the Spirit depart from you somehow. Even though Jesus says this: John 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth.

The Holy Spirit was not given to believers UNTIL the Day of Pentecost. See Acts 2. When Jesus stated John 14, He was speaking of that future day. By the time of Acts 10, all who believed received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture doesn't say "cease to be saved", because born agains don't stop believing the truth.

The Bible very directly says that some HAVE. Jesus plainly stated that the second soil "believed for a while" and then "fell away". And Paul told Timothy: The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
1 Tim 4:1 NIV

This could not be describing unbelievers because unbelievers cannot "abandon the faith". They were never IN the faith.

Everyone else that was in the faith, but not born again can stop believing.

There is no such thing. To be "in the faith" means to be a believer. And to be a believer means to be born again.

Please provide clearly worded Scripture that supports your claim.

 

[FreeGrace]

I suggest you re-read all of 1Thessalonians 5.

I've already requested that those who disagree with my analysis of v.4-10 explain EACH verse to show how my analysis is flawed.

I don't have time to argue this.

Well, that's not my problem. I provided an explanation of the passage for each verse. If there is disagreement, just explain EACH verse to show how my explanation is flawed.

I inserted other scripture because that's how the bible is STUDIED.

No, let's begin by studying the passage itself. Then use other passages that may be related.

Not verse by verse as you do.

So? Maybe some don't realize that the Bible was written verse by verse. To communicate truth.

Because you pick out the ones you particularly like and "support" your theory.

If the Bible teaches something opposite to any passage I've explained, it should be very easy to provide such verses that clearly and plainly state the opposite. But so far, all that you've done is ignore 1 Thess 5:4-10 in order to go to "other verses" that you've misunderstood as your argument against my explanation of my passage. So please address my passage verse by verse to show me how it doesn't say what I believe it does say.

I did post what was necessary. The other verses in Thessalonians are not important to your argument.

I understand your need for denial.

Lifestyle.
I repeat.

That is very point of 1 Thess 5:4-10.

WHY WOULD PAUL EVEN SPEAK ABOUT LIFESTYLE UNLESS IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT?

Of course it is. For reward and blessings.

The prize is heaven.

A total misunderstanding of 1 Cor 9:27. If heaven is a prize, it is not by grace. But the Bible is very clear that salvation (heaven) is by grace.

 

[FreeGrace]

The bottom line is this:

YOU BELIEVE - YOU'RE SAVED
YOU DON'T BELIEVE - YOU'RE NOT SAVED

How come this opinion has not yet been supported by ANY verses??

Please quit ushing opinions without clear support from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree 100%.
Jesus is our keeper, as you say.

If we are in Jesus, we are saved.
If we are not in Jesus, we are not saved.

Are we good?

No, we are not "good". Jesus told the rich young ruler that only God is good. However, your claim here is confused and contradicted.

First you say "Jesus is our keeper", then you suggest that we can leave Him, like a yo-yo on a string: up, then down, then up, then down.

If we can ever not be "in Jesus", then there is no positional truth, and He really isn't our "keeper".

Here's the deal: keepers actually KEEP. That's the point of eternal security/OSAS.

Please re-think your dialectical viewpoint.

 

[FreeGrace]

Lol, look at what you said.
You said he added no condition for the BELIEVER to never perish.

Did I really need to add "other" before 'conditon'? I thought that would be obvious. But, obviously, not.

So, I will rephrase: There are NO OTHER conditions for the believer (one who has already believed) to never perish.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The issue is what "fire" means in any given passage. Unless the word "fire" includes "eternal" or "unquenchable", there is NO REASON to assume it is referring to hell.

You mean like when Jesus tells us to cut off people from the body of the church who cause little ones who believe in him to stumble so as to go to the eternal fiery hell?

6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
8“If your hand or your foot (the "whoever" in vs.6) causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye (the "whoever" in vs.6) causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you ("who believe in Me" - see vs.6) to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:8-9 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

The stumbling influence of the 'whoevers' among believers (vs.6) is such that it can send those "who believe in Me" (vs.6) to be cast into the fiery hell (vs.9). But hyper-grace doctrine claims this can never, ever happen under any circumstance, even for believers who are caused to stumble by the 'whoevers' among them.

That's not what Jesus said. He warns quite the opposite. But that is what false doctrine does. In the end, it turns the word of God exactly around to what God did NOT say. Case in point, when the serpent was done talking to Eve she now suddenly COULD eat of the forbidden tree, and she would NOT die. That's what false doctrine is designed to do--change the word of God to mean the OPPOSITE of what it says.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Did I really need to add "other" before 'conditon'? I thought that would be obvious. But, obviously, not.

So, I will rephrase: There are NO OTHER conditions for the believer (one who has already believed) to never perish.

Lol, how is the person who no longer believes a believer?

It plainly says the believer is the one who has eternal life and will not come into judgment:
"24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 10:29 NASB)

The condition right in the passage you use to prove hyper-grace OSAS is that he believes. Someone who no longer believes is hardly satisfying the condition to believe in order to have eternal life that Jesus plainly laid out above.

 

[JLB]

Why would someone who already has eternal life be threatened by death??? That's what makes no sense. Have they not read Jesus' admonition in Matt 10:28 and Rev 2:10 to not fear death?

I answered you question, which asked -

What possible reason would make a person no longer 'desire to have Jesus in their life'???

One of the reason's that Jesus gave for this question, is:

The threat of persecution and death, is one reason a person would choose to turn away from Christ, and renounce Him as Lord.


That is the admonition throughout the New Testament: Remain faithful even unto death.

The Foxes book of martyrs is filled with such examples.

People being tortured and fed to lions, burned at the stake... because they wouldn't renounce Jesus Christ as Lord.

This is the setting and context for the following admonitions:

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• Time of temptation is a reference to persecution and tribulation.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14

Matthew says it this way, concerning the parable of the Sower: Same word "endure" is used, which is inter-changable with "believe".

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.Revelation 2:10


He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5



Yes I have read what Jesus said, it's right here, as I quoted Him word for word.


Jesus warns us...

• Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
• He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;

Are you saying it is impossible to be blotted out of the book of life?

...and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;

• Those who are in the book of life, have eternal life.
• Those who are removed from the book of life, because of being "blotted out", no longer have eternal life.

Unless you can prove that it is impossible to be blotted out of the book of life, then OSAS is an unbiblical doctrine.



JLB

 

[smaller]

You mean like when Jesus tells us to cut off people from the body of the church who cause little ones who believe in him to stumble so as to go to the eternal fiery hell?

That's exactly what your position does Jethro. It tries to make believers stumble. Some of you are sooo convinced that others will stumble. If you were half as convinced of Jesus' Abilities to SAVE you wouldn't have to fall into that trap yourselves.

Romans 14:13
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

If we want to observe and APPLY DIRE JUDGMENTS there are ample sights available to apply adverse judgments to that which exists between our own two ears.

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matt. 5:28

Judge THERE and you'll probably find you'll have your hands quite full with applying dire judgments.

Jesus has a real basic lesson, right here. LISTEN TO HIM:

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

There is not a one of you who can SIT under the above and instead run as hard as possible the other way.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, anti-OSAS has to have a lot of presuppostions for their position to work.

Yeah, like 'believes' has to actually mean 'believes'.

24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)

 

[JLB]

Or what, specifically? Where does the Bible say anything about losing salvation or eternal life if one doesn't?

Jesus warns us...

• He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;

Are you saying it is impossible to be blotted out of the book of life?

...and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;

• Those who are in the book of life, have eternal life.
• Those who are removed from the book of life, because of being "blotted out", no longer have eternal life.

Are you teaching us that those who are "blotted out" of the book of life, still some how "have eternal life"?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please note in John 10:28 that Jesus promises that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. And also note that He added NO conditions for the believer to NEVER PERISH.

So, I will rephrase: There are NO OTHER conditions for the believer (one who has already believed) to never perish.

Justification is entirely through believing. So, 'yes', there are no 'other' conditions for being justified. Which is exactly why the person who does NOT believe does not have Jesus/eternal life. You are actually saying there are NO conditions for having eternal life--that you can even become an unbeliever and deny Christ and you will still have Christ/eternal life.

 

[JLB]

Hi Jethro,
It's easy to get mixed up when straying from the logical doctrine found in scripture.

I'd like to say this to FreeGrace regarding John 10:28 :
Do we believe in heaven and in hell?
How about annihilation?

Annihilationists use John 10:28 as support scripture for their doctrine.
The good and saved will go to heaven,
The bad and unsaved will be annihilated. No hell exists.

This is why we cannot take one verse out of all of the N.T.
(but I guess it's fun)

Wondering

It may seem like fun to them now, because they are playing games with God's word.


However, those who choose to twist God's word, do so to their own destruction.

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 2 Peter 3:14-16


When one studies the context of these straight forward words from Peter, we see that the destruction of false teachers was just mentioned as they were compared to the angels who sinned in the days of Noah.

These angels were "sons of God", but were cast down into hell, for what they did during the days of Noah.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

Doom of False Teachers
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:1-5


Let the false teachers fill up their evil ways, as they will have no excuse on the Day of Judgement.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

1. The anti-OSAS crowd hasn't proven their meaning of "face value".


2. We know the Greek word means to possess.


3. Yes it does. It just doesn't mean "loss of salvation", as assumed by the anti-OSAS crowd.


4. There is no substitution. The FACT that fellowship is a biblical word and concept is dismissed by the anti-OSAS crowd.


5. No it doesn't. The issue is what "fire" means in any given passage. Unless the word "fire" includes "eternal" or "unquenchable", there is NO REASON to assume it is referring to hell.


6. Do you disagree that there is past, present and future concept regarding salvation? Seriously?

Past tense: we HAVE been saved from the penalty of sin. This is justification. Disagree with this?
Present tense: we ARE BEING saved from the power of sin. This is sanctification. Disagree with this?
Future tense: we WILL BE saved from the presence of sin. This is glorification. Disagree with this?

For any of these tenses regarding salvation, if there is disagreement, please explain why. Thanks.

I don't like these quote things because those reading along will make no sense of my replies.

1. Now you want to discuss what "face value" means?
English was my major. You can always use a dictionary. I AM NOT your dictionary. Do you think "face value" means something different from the rest of the world? Yes. The OSAS crowd does tend to do this...Understand plain words differently than others.

2. Are you a Greek theologian? No. I've already given my opinion on this. I'm not here to discuss Greek.

3. Yes it does WHAT?? See what I mean? It makes no sense. Maybe if you'd put the question in your answer.

4. Fellowship. I sometimes wonder if the meaning is understood.
Fellowship means COMMUNION. Even in the English language and certainly in the Romance languages.
EVEN IN GREEK.

So, are you trying to tell me that we don't lose salvation, but we lose only fellowship, which is communion? Do you realize that communion means to have things in common, such as in a community, or a commune.

So if I abandon God, and murder someone, I'm still saved - according to you - but I only loose my COMMUNION with God.
And what, please, would I have in common with God??? Is He a murderer also??

5. The point was not the FIRE but the fact that who is not ON THE VINE will be burned. Those who do NOT BELIEVE, who do not produce fruit. Present tense.

6. I agree with what you posted re Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.

You said for Sanctification that we ARE BEING saved. Do you realize that if you are being saved it means only FOR THAT TIME and that it could end?

Chambers 20th Century Dictionary:

1. Being
   
   bē′ing, n. existence: substance: essence: any person or thing existing.—adj. Bē′ing, existing, present.—adj. Bē′ingless.—n. Bē′ingness. [From the pr.p. of Be.]
   

For exampleL
I AM mean is ongoing.
I AM BEING mean - means that it will end at some point.

BTW, did you know that Catholics explain being saved like you do?
They'll tell you that they WERE saved, ARE saved, and ARE BEING saved.
(since they don't know if they'll be saved at time of death).

Wondering