Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[GodsGrace]

It may seem like fun to them now, because they are playing games with God's word.


However, those who choose to twist God's word, do so to their own destruction.

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 2 Peter 3:14-16


When one studies the context of these straight forward words from Peter, we see that the destruction of false teachers was just mentioned as they were compared to the angels who sinned in the days of Noah.

These angels were "sons of God", but were cast down into hell, for what they did during the days of Noah.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

Doom of False Teachers
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:1-5


Let the false teachers fill up their evil ways, as they will have no excuse on the Day of Judgement.



JLB

AMEN.

 

[JLB]

That's exactly what your position does Jethro. It tries to make believers stumble. Some of you are sooo convinced that others will stumble. If you were half as convinced of Jesus' Abilities to SAVE you wouldn't have to fall into that trap yourselves.

Romans 14:13
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

If we want to observe and APPLY DIRE JUDGMENTS there are ample sights available to apply adverse judgments to that which exists between our own two ears.

Jethro is quoting from the scriptures, the many warnings from Jesus and His apostles, about being a stumbling block, or putting a stumbling block before others, and the consequences for doing so.

Those who turn their brothers back to the way of truth, will have saved a sinner from eternal death, and are walking in the love of God.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


Love covers a multitude of sins.

Turning a wayward brother back to the truth, is the way of love.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Jethro is quoting from the scriptures, the many warnings from Jesus and His apostles, about being a stumbling block, or putting a stumbling block before others, and the consequences for doing so.

That's exactly what you guys have fallen into with your claims.

What is the quest with the unbeliever? The non-saved? To share The Word with them, to save them or to damn them to hell?

I think that answer is pretty obvious. There is only ONE QUEST.

Those who turn their brothers back to the way of truth, will have saved a sinner from eternal death, and are walking in the love of God.

I'd suggest that y'all are trying (quite vainly) to sit in a seat that you have no business whatsoever sitting in. None of us are called to eternally condemn anyone.

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

By making a simple comparison to what your position attempts to do to the above, I would find your positions quite entirely at LACK and without fruit, cause or quest.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

Love covers a multitude of sins.

We don't love anyone when dangling them over the pits of hell, as much as you may think otherwise.

Turning a wayward brother back to the truth, is the way of love.

I've never found much appeal from other believers who tell me they love me sooo much they want to constantly put me under the threat of hell.

Thanks, but I'll pass. Jesus Saved me the moment He entered my heart. As much as you may try to convince me otherwise. Your sight seeks to eliminate Christ from the equations. It can't be done, legitimately.

Romans 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

You may think you can pry The Word out of anyone by your claims. I might say The Word may prove your claims to be quite worthless.

 

[GodsGrace]

How would anyone know whether any priest even has the Holy Spirit. And how would anyone know whether anyone has lost the Holy Spirit. Such a view MUST of necessity disregard Eph 1:13,14, 4:40.
Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph 4:30
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. NASU

These verses SAY that "having believed" (obviously not present tense) we WERE SEALED (obviously not present tense) in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, given as a promise of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, sealed for the day of redemption.

That is clearly about eternal security.

FreeGrace,
We've discussed the being sealed. Do you even read my replies? Should I just repeat myself and bore everyone to tears?
In any case, Ephesians 4:30 says that they WERE sealed, it doesn't say the ARE sealed. It only means that they were sealed for the day of redemption. If they remain sealed, they will live with God at the day of redemption in the glorified body. You seem to agree with me from what you state above.

I've already discussed how letters were sealed with messages that could be rescinded.

Please provide any NT verse that teaches that this particular seal has been, or can be broken by any means.

Please provide a verse that states not to worry about losing salvation since the N.T. I read IMPLORES me to live a good life and TO DO all that Jesus and Paul and the others asked, no stealing, no fornication, no blaspheming, and more.
1 Thessalonians 4:7-8
Ephesians 5:19-21

This proves nothing. Please provide explanation of verses provided, as I have.

I went back to get the verses. They are:
Hebrews 3:12-19
Hebrews 6:4-6

You say they prove nothing.

Hebrews 3:12-19

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.
14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
15 As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?
17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?
19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

You believe - you enter.
You don't believe - you don't enter.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Hebrews 6:4-6

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
6 and who have fallena away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Some were INLIGHTENED, FELL AWAY, and COULD NOT BE BROUGHT BACK TO REPENTANCE. IT IS TO THEIR LOSS.
Your going to tell me this is loss of a prize??? It states that they are re-crucifying Jesus over and over again!
The loss is loss of heaven and salvation.

Repentance is NECESSARY for salvation, and it states they could not be brought back to repentance.

See, FreeGrace, these verses are VERY EASY to understand if you just read them and take them at FACE VALUE.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

If so, please explain how so.

That shouldn't preclude an explanation of all three.


OK, so even easier. Only 2 to define and explain how they are "very different".

Not really. The 5th point is really perseverance of the saints, which defies clear Scripture about falling away from the faith.

But, looking forward to your explanations.

You really need to adjust your replies.
The above MAKES NO SENSE to those reading along.

It's referring to a discussion I had with someone else in post no. 384. Here it is:

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Hi Mike,
This may have been answered already. This thread is zipping along.

I just wanted to say that I denote a difference between eternal security or OSAS
and eternal life.

Eternal life is the life Jesus gives us. We weill be resurrected and have eternal life with Him. HE gives us eternal life. It begins here on earth - He is the life in us. If we remain in Him we will have eternal life with him in heaven. Hell is death, not life.

John 11:25-26
Jesus is the resurrrection and the life. Whoever believes (always the present tense!) in Him shall live even if he dies; the body dies, but we keep on living in Him.

2 Timothy 1:10
Our Savior Jesus Christ has abolished death (everlasting death and death of the Spirit in us) and has brought light and immortality through the gospel.

1 John 5:13
John has written his letters so that who believes (again, present tense) in the name of the Son of God shall have eternal life.

There are 3 deaths: Physical, spiritual, eternal.
Life is also physical, spiritual and eternal.

Wondering

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

The above explains ETERNAL LIFE.

ETERNAL SECURITY AND OSAS is the same concept.
Eternal Security is the 5th point of Calvin and is the same as Perseverance of the Saints.
You could check this online.
I'm more than certain you know the meaning of this.

Wondering

 

[JLB]

That's exactly what you guys have fallen into with your claims.

What is the quest with the unbeliever? The non-saved? To share The Word with them, to save them or to damn them to hell?

I think that answer is pretty obvious. There is only ONE QUEST.

Can you see the word "sinner" in this scripture?

A sinner is defined here, in this scripture, as a brother who has wandered "from the truth".


Just exactly like Jesus taught us in the parable of the "lost sheep".


His sheep, who "become lost", has "become" a sinner in need of repentance, just exactly like an unbeliever who is lost, and is in need of repentance.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Jesus Himself was sent to the "lost sheep" of the House of Israel!


Those who turn their brothers back to the way of truth, will have saved a sinner from eternal death, and are walking in the love of God.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


Love covers a multitude of sins.

Turning a wayward brother back to the truth, is the way of love.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I've already requested that those who disagree with my analysis of v.4-10 explain EACH verse to show how my analysis is flawed.

Well, that's not my problem. I provided an explanation of the passage for each verse. If there is disagreement, just explain EACH verse to show how my explanation is flawed.

No, let's begin by studying the passage itself. Then use other passages that may be related.

So? Maybe some don't realize that the Bible was written verse by verse. To communicate truth.

If the Bible teaches something opposite to any passage I've explained, it should be very easy to provide such verses that clearly and plainly state the opposite. But so far, all that you've done is ignore 1 Thess 5:4-10 in order to go to "other verses" that you've misunderstood as your argument against my explanation of my passage. So please address my passage verse by verse to show me how it doesn't say what I believe it does say.

I understand your need for denial.

That is very point of 1 Thess 5:4-10.

Of course it is. For reward and blessings.

A total misunderstanding of 1 Cor 9:27. If heaven is a prize, it is not by grace. But the Bible is very clear that salvation (heaven) is by grace.

Sorry FreeGrace.
I'm sorry to say my efforts are of no value except for some that may be reading these posts.

Keep reading the N.T.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Can you see the word "sinner" in this scripture?

A sinner is defined here, in this scripture, as a brother who has wandered "from the truth".

Just exactly like Jesus taught us in the parable of the "lost sheep".

I think people who fall into condemnation rather than the quest to share the Love of God in Christ use "hell" as a cop out for their own ineffective witnessing of Christ.

His sheep, who "become lost", has "become" a sinner in need of repentance, just exactly like an unbeliever who is lost, and is in need of repentance.

And He'll leave 99 other sheep and FIND the lost one. Didn't you read?

Luke 15:4
What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Didn't you ever read that it was the shepherds of Israel that CAUSED the sheep to be lost?

Jeremiah 50:6
My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think people who fall into condemnation rather than the quest to share the Love of God in Christ use "hell" as a cop out for their own ineffective witnessing of Christ.

And He'll leave 99 other sheep and FIND the lost one. Didn't you read?

Luke 15:4
What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Didn't you ever read that it was the shepherds of Israel that CAUSED the sheep to be lost?

Jeremiah 50:6
My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Smaller,
You've said this many times:
Why does it have to be condemnation if one warns that Jesus preached a certain way that we should live.
The N.T. even specifically addresses this. Here for example:

Hebrews 10:26-31

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(NIV)

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

No, we are not "good". Jesus told the rich young ruler that only God is good. However, your claim here is confused and contradicted.

First you say "Jesus is our keeper", then you suggest that we can leave Him, like a yo-yo on a string: up, then down, then up, then down.

If we can ever not be "in Jesus", then there is no positional truth, and He really isn't our "keeper".

Here's the deal: keepers actually KEEP. That's the point of eternal security/OSAS.

Please re-think your dialectical viewpoint.

This is too funny FreeGrace.

The above refers to a comment I made to chessman in post no. 479.
HE understood it, as is evidenced by his reply in no. 480.

Go check it out. It has nothing to do with being "good" !!

§And trust me FreeGrace, I may be a lot of things, but confused is not one of them.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
You've said this many times:
Why does it have to be condemnation if one warns that Jesus preached a certain way that we should live.
The N.T. even specifically addresses this. Here for example:

Hebrews 10:26-31

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(NIV)

Wondering

I'd suggest your reading comprehension on the subject matter is off.

Believers are very fond of "excusing and covering up" the facts that they are sinners when the fact of the matter is exactly NO ONE stopped being a sinner to begin with. Romans 7:17-21, Romans 8:3, Gal. 5:17, 1 Tim. 1:15.

We SHOULD fully and EAGERLY expect the DIREST JUDGMENT upon our own SIN.

Even WELCOME it!

When it comes to applying "dire judgments" personally most believers run like a bunch of quivering cowards.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

When it comes to the most DIRE JUDGMENTS if we had any sense a'tall we'd be standing, FIRST in LINE:

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The issue is what "fire" means in any given passage. Unless the word "fire" includes "eternal" or "unquenchable", there is NO REASON to assume it is referring to hell."

You mean like when Jesus tells us to cut off people from the body of the church who cause little ones who believe in him to stumble so as to go to the eternal fiery hell?

Re: Matt 18:8-9, it doesn't say what you're insinuating it says. v.6 is about being drowned, not going to hell. As for the other 2 verses, Jesus was just comparing what was BETTER, being maimed and going to heaven or not being maimed and going to hell. But it's ALL figurative comparative language, not literal at all. He was definitely NOT teaching that one can lose limbs in order to go to heaven.

6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
8“If your hand or your foot (the "whoever" in vs.6) causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye (the "whoever" in vs.6) causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you ("who believe in Me" - see vs.6) to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:8-9 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

There is nothing in any of these 3 verses that suggests that anyone who causes little ones to stumble going to the eternal fiery hell.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Did I really need to add "other" before 'conditon'? I thought that would be obvious. But, obviously, not.

So, I will rephrase: There are NO OTHER conditions for the believer (one who has already believed) to never perish."

Lol, how is the person who no longer believes a believer?

Is this a real attempt at being dense? I've already addressed this. So repeating the question only shows how little my posts are being read.

It plainly says the believer is the one who has eternal life and will not come into judgment:
"24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 10:29 NASB)

When the Bible describes a person as a "believer" they are referring to anyone who has believed. Where are the verses that describe any former believer as an unbeliever? There aren't any, so your continued push fails. There isn't any evidence for your opinion.

The condition right in the passage you use to prove hyper-grace OSAS is that he believes. Someone who no longer believes is hardly satisfying the condition to believe in order to have eternal life that Jesus plainly laid out above.

Since eternal life is a gift of God, AND, God's gifts are irrevocable, the math is easy. But it seems some just do not like the math.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yeah, like 'believes' has to actually mean 'believes'.

Sure it does. No one has said otherwise.

24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB)

Thanks for another verse on eternal security. Those who believe HAVE eternal life. And we know from other equally valid Scripture that eternal life is a gift of God, AND that God's gifts are irrevocable.

To think that eternal life can be lost, removed, revoked or taken away is just incredible. And without merit.

 

[MarkT]

According to John, the Jews who had believed in Jesus were devils. (you are of your father the devil John 8:44) They couldn't bear to hear his word, could not understand, took up stones to throw at him (John 8 :59) Just goes to show even devils can believe for a while, but eventually they do fall away.

To me a believer is someone who keeps the commandments, as Jesus said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." John 14:15 Indeed I would say believing implies keeping his commandments.

So the question arises, when are you saved? When you first heard? When you first came to believe? Or when you received the Spirit of truth? Or are you saved by keeping his commandments? Jesus said, If a man does not abide in me, ie. keep his commandments, he is cast forth as a branch and withers and branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:6

So the Spirit of truth teaches us.“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ Mt. 7:21-23

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Or what, specifically? Where does the Bible say anything about losing salvation or eternal life if one doesn't?"

Jesus warns us..
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;
Are you saying it is impossible to be blotted out of the book of life?

I've already explained what a "litotes" is. So your continued ignorance of what it is and how it is used is your own problem completely.

Now, where is the evidence that anyone HAS EVER been "blotted out" of the book of life?

Are you teaching us that those who are "blotted out" of the book of life, still some how "have eternal life"?
JLB

I teach what Scripture teaches.

The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.
Paul described 3 of God's gifts that are available to both Jew and Gentile: spiritual gifts (1:11), justification (3:24, 5:15,16,7) and eternal life (6:23).
Paul mentioned that God's call is available to both Jew and Gentile in 9:25 and 10:12.
Therefore, BOTH the gifts of God and the call of God are for BOTH Jew and Gentile, and include all the gifts that Paul previously described in Romans before he penned 11:29, which proves your theory that 11:29 only applies to ch 11 and Jews, even though non one from your persuasion has been able to even name ANYTHING as a gift to just the Jews.

Your teaching is contrary to Scripture.

 

[JLB]

I think people who fall into condemnation rather than the quest to share the Love of God in Christ use "hell" as a cop out for their own ineffective witnessing of Christ.

You can "think" whatever you like.

If your "thinking" is from an unrenewed mind, which has not been renewed to the truth of God's word, by the Holy Spirit, then your "thinking will most certainly be in error.


This is why those who teach "false doctrine" are condemned, because they lead the innocent into error, which is putting a stumbling block, before the babes in Christ.

These false teachings come from a mind and a conscience that is defiled.

10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. Titus 1:10-16


Here are some key phrases from this passage:

• but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
• They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
• This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,.

Those who teach these things, which are contrary to the Apostle Doctrine, are disobedient and abominable.
The reason for these who teach things that they should not, is because they are defiled in mind and conscience.
The purpose of rebuking these that teach things which they should not, is that they may become sound in the faith.


abominable: Those who are abominable will have their part in the lake of fire.

unbelieving: Those who are unbelieving will have their part in the lake of fire.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Justification is entirely through believing. So, 'yes', there are no 'other' conditions for being justified. Which is exactly why the person who does NOT believe does not have Jesus/eternal life.

What you're unwilling to accept is that eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God. Just as the call of God is irrevocable.

You are actually saying there are NO conditions for having eternal life

Unless one has a very limited ability to comprehend the English language, they should have NO PROBLEM understanding my position that there is exactly ONE condition for having eternal life. That ONE condition is to believe in Jesus Christ. John 3:16, 6:40.

--that you can even become an unbeliever and deny Christ and you will still have Christ/eternal life.

Thats God's plan and prerogative; His gifts and call are irrevocable.

Deal with it.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"Or what, specifically? Where does the Bible say anything about losing salvation or eternal life if one doesn't?"
I've already explained what a "litotes" is. So your continued ignorance of what it is and how it is used is your own problem completely.

Now, where is the evidence that anyone HAS EVER been "blotted out" of the book of life?

Your continued denial of the warnings of Jesus Christ, are well noted by those who teach the truth, on this forum.

I will ask you again:

Jesus warns us...

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;


Are you saying it is impossible to be blotted out of the book of life?

1. Yes, its possible to be blotted out of the book of life.
2. No, it's impossible to be blotted out of the book of life.

I say, with all boldness: Yes, according to Jesus, it is very possible for a person to get blotted out of the book of Life.


What say you?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't like these quote things because those reading along will make no sense of my replies.

I include my own quotes for CONTEXT, so that my replies to other posters will make MORE SENSE. Those who don't like context and making MORE SENSE out of things do not have to participate.

1. Now you want to discuss what "face value" means?

Who brought it up?

English was my major. You can always use a dictionary. I AM NOT your dictionary. Do you think "face value" means something different from the rest of the world? Yes. The OSAS crowd does tend to do this...Understand plain words differently than others.

This has been claimed like a broken record. Where is the evidence for your claims?

2. Are you a Greek theologian? No. I've already given my opinion on this. I'm not here to discuss Greek.

I'm not interested in anyone's opinion, but whatever actual evidence they may have that supports their claims. And I've not seen any from the anti-OSAS crowd.

And I'm not interested in whatever you're not here to discuss. If it's just all Greek to you, then simply don't respond to my posts.

4. Fellowship. I sometimes wonder if the meaning is understood.

It clearly is NOT understood among the anti-OSAS crowd.

Fellowship means COMMUNION. Even in the English language and certainly in the Romance languages.
EVEN IN GREEK.

Congrats! Do husbands and wives always have "communion" with each other? Of course not. Do parents and their children always have "communion" with each other? Again, of course not.

The same is true in the spiritual realm.

Have you ever done a word study on the word "fellowship"? Here are some facts:
NIV - 11 times
NASB - 12 times
KJV - 15 times

It's a common word and needs to be understood.

So, are you trying to tell me that we don't lose salvation, but we lose only fellowship, which is communion?

No, the Bible is trying to tell you that. But your question treats loss of fellowship rather casually, or flippantly.

If a wife isn't having fellowship with her husband, will she be content and feel fulfilled? Of course not.

Do you realize that communion means to have things in common, such as in a community, or a commune.

Sure. Now, your turn. Do you realize that communion involves cooperation?

Why is that important? Because Jesus said this:
John 15:5-7
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. ESV

Do you think bearing "much fruit" is an important thing to do?
Do you think that having whatever you ask for will be done for you?

Now, do you believe that God will reward people for faithful, obedient service, or is that just the way to get into heaven?

These are seriously important questions, which I hope will be answered.

So if I abandon God, and murder someone, I'm still saved - according to you - but I only loose my COMMUNION with God.

Again, your flippant attitude towards the idea of fellowship is obvious. It's not an "only" situation. Here's what you'll lose:
1. blessings in time. Is that not a big thing for you? Do you think losing God's blessings in time is no big deal?
2. lose eternal reward. Is that not a big thing for you? Does "reigning with Christ" interest you? Those who aren't interested are seriously flawed. However, no believer will reign with Christ unless they have "endured", according to Paul in 2 Tim 2:12.
3. will experience God's discipline, according to Heb 12:5. Is that not a big thing for you?

These 3 things are HUGE, yet the anti-OSAS crowd merely dismisses them as insignificant or treats them as mere "slap on the hand" kind of reaction.

And what, please, would I have in common with God???

1. As one who has believed in Christ, you are born again, with a new nature, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and God is faithful even when we aren't and WILL NOT deny Himself, according to 2 Tim 2:13.
2. As God's child, you have an eternal inheritance, meaning a place in heaven to be with Him.

Where does the Bible teach that any of this can be taken away? Nowhere is where.

Is He a murderer also??

This sarcastic question is beyond the pale.

5. The point was not the FIRE but the fact that who is not ON THE VINE will be burned. Those who do NOT BELIEVE, who do not produce fruit. Present tense.

I refer you to 1 Cor 3:14,15.

6. I agree with what you posted re Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.

Then you should agree with the 3 tenses of salvation.

You said for Sanctification that we ARE BEING saved. Do you realize that if you are being saved it means only FOR THAT TIME and that it could end?

Sure. The present tense of salvation is progressive sanctification and may not even occur. But don't forget the past tense; we HAVE BEEN saved from the PENALTY of sin. Your view denies that.

BTW, did you know that Catholics explain being saved like you do?
They'll tell you that they WERE saved, ARE saved, and ARE BEING saved.
(since they don't know if they'll be saved at time of death). Wondering

Not really. They believe that they may NOT ultimately be saved, unless they fulfill the sacraments. They believe that "Christ did His part in dying for us", but "they must do THEIR PART" in order to be saved.

That isn't anything like what I've EVER believed.

So your conclusion is mighty faulty.