Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Those who have been saved continue to be saved. The perfect tense doesn't allow for any of the conditions or contingencies that your position claims are necessary to STAY SAVED. The perfect tense doesn't allow such a view."

Why do you ignore all the examples of the Perfect Tense that prove it does not require the completed action to go on forever and ever???????

It seems you're not even a bit interested in paying attention to my posts.

 

[GodsGrace]

to hold fast - don't let go

You have to continue in your belief (don't let go) or your believing (that which you believed at first) was for naught. ie.in vain.

Seems pretty simple, doesn't it?
But some here like to change the meaning of words or phrases to suit their own doctrine, which, BTW, was never the understanding of the early church.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

OSAS.
I don't understand how someone can believe they are only saved "maybe".
What a wishy washy faith that is.

 

[GodsGrace]

OSAS.
I don't understand how someone can believe they are only saved "maybe".
What a wishy washy faith that is.

How could one be saved. " maybe" ?
You are saved as long as you trust in the Lord for your salvation.

IF you ever decide to leave Him and that trust, for whatever reason, you can no longer be saved.

You believe. = you're saved
You don't believe = you're not saved.

No?

 

[JLB]

My focus is on what the Bible says, not what "traditional" views are.


That's my position as well. Our difference is clear: the Bible never speaks of a saved person who ceases to believe as an unbeliever, as your position does. The Bible calls them apostates, which your position refuses to acknowledge.


You've given this opinion 3 times, and I've asked twice already to provide any evidence that supports your opinion, and you've failed twice to provide any evidence at all.

I'm not interested in your "assurances". I'm interested in FACTS.

Since I have no assurance that your position is biblical, why should I be impressed with any "assurances" from you?

Bottom line; without any evidence, your opinion about Dr Jeremiah is irrelevant.

Facts, not opinions.

This is the A & T Forum.


Please use scripture from an acceptable Bible version.


16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

How could one be saved. " maybe" ?
You are saved as long as you trust in the Lord for your salvation.

IF you ever decide to leave Him and that trust, for whatever reason, you can no longer be saved.

You believe. = you're saved
You don't believe = you're not saved.

No?

You go to heaven - maybe - depending on your standing with God at the very moment you die.
Nothing else matters.
Such foolishness, not worthy of mature Christians to discuss.
Psalm 23:6;
Good bye.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"Those who have been saved continue to be saved.

Please post the scripture for this vague statement.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

• Those who believe are saved.

....lest they should believe and be saved.

• Those who believe for a while, are saved for awhile, because they fall away.

...who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.



Do you believe that a person who believes for a while, then falls away, represents someone who is saved?



JLB

 

[JLB]

You go to heaven - maybe - depending on your standing with God at the very moment you die.
Nothing else matters.
Such foolishness, not worthy of mature Christians to discuss.
Psalm 23:6;
Good bye.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Was this written to Christians, ie: "saved people" ?



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You go to heaven - maybe - depending on your standing with God at the very moment you die.
Nothing else matters.
Such foolishness, not worthy of mature Christians to discuss.
Psalm 23:6;
Good bye.

I do believe it depends on you're standing with God at the time of death.
I'm sorry I don't have access to scripture right now.
Could I use an example?

 

[MarkT]

Yes. Paul said some didn't believe in a resurrection of the dead. So the question is, what did they believe if they didn't believe in a resurrection from the dead. And the answer is something other than the Gospel that saves.

Did they believe in vain? Yep, that's what Paul said.
Paul argued, if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised, and if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is in vain. ie. for naught. Yep. 1 Cor. 15:12-19 and from 1 Cor. 15:1-2.

The idea that you have to not "let go" of salvation in order to receive salvation is inserted into the Text.


I prefer to read what Paul actually said rather than assume corollaries.

If Paul would have meant you have to maintain your own salvation rather than receive it, he could have said so. He didn't say so in verses 1-2. He said you are saved unless you believed in vain (believed in a non-reserrected Jesus). Plain as day.

I stand firm in my salvation because I did believe in a risen Christ, not because I believe in me "not letting go".

Re. 1 Cor. 15:1,2 He writes to remind them to hold fast to the gospel he preached and then he goes on to say he preached Christ raised from the dead as of first importance. That's it. Hold fast, don't let go, don't forget, don't believe something else, don't fall into unbelief. Hold fast can mean all those things. What it comes down to is the gospel, what he delivered, what they received.

I don't know what you mean by maintaining your own salvation rather than receiving it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Was this written to Christians, ie: "saved people" ?



JLB

What does all this have to do with the price of milk?
You are bringing the Law into it.
Take away the Law and you've got nothing.
Jesus saved me.
No one has the power to take that away from me, least of all myself.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I do believe it depends on you're standing with God at the time of death.
I'm sorry I don't have access to scripture right now.
Could I use an example?

No, don't get personal.

 

[JLB]

What does all this have to do with the price of milk?
You are bringing the Law into it.
Take away the Law and you've got nothing.
Jesus saved me.
No one has the power to take that away from me, least of all myself.

The Law?

How is the works of the flesh: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; the Law?

Where is the Law mentioned in these verses?

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21




JLB

 

[chessman]

I wouldn't say 'not let go of salvation'.

Then why did you say

if you hold it fast (don't let go)

To "hold fast" in Paul's original language does NOT mean to "not let go". I understand why people think that it does mean 'don't let go' based on it's modern English usage. However, the word (to Paul and his readers) means to possess and/or hold a ship at anchor or a heading. It's the same word Paul used in 1 Cor 7:30, for example, translated as posses.

When "hold" a title to property or "hold" an office like The President, you mean that you possess it. Not that you have a grip on it with your hands.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, don't get personal.

It's not personal.
Let's say I accept faith in God, believe Jesus is Lord and Savior, that He died for my sin and sins, past, present and future, that He died for me and did resurrect to life as will I.

Years pass and due to a tragedy in the family I lose all belief. I come to hate God and His ways.
I hate everyone, I drink, mistreat people , am permiscuous and who knows what else. I do not look to God for forgiveness. There is no repentance.

Am I saved and going to be with the God I hate?

 

[GodsGrace]

Then why did you say


To "hold fast" in Paul's original language does NOT mean to "not let go". I understand why people think that it does mean 'don't let go' based on it's modern English usage. However, the word (to Paul and his readers) means to possess and/or hold a ship at anchor or a heading. It's the same word Paul used in 1 Cor 7:30, for example, translated as posses.

When "hold" a title to property or "hold" an office like The President, you mean that you possess it. Not that you have a grip on it with your hands.

Chessman,
If you let go of something, you don't possess it anymore.

In any language...

 

[MarkT]

I agree in this case Paul is arguing for a resurrection of the dead saying in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, and to believe otherwise would be to believe for naught.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The Law?

How is the works of the flesh: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; the Law?

Where is the Law mentioned in these verses?

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21




JLB

Romans 5:20
Romans 7:7

Now if you don't see sin here in these verses, then you are nitpicking because that would break your long standing record of 14,683 posts with ever losing a debate.
It's all in your mind.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then why did you say


To "hold fast" in Paul's original language does NOT mean to "not let go". I understand why people think that it does mean 'don't let go' based on it's modern English usage. However, the word (to Paul and his readers) means to possess and/or hold a ship at anchor or a heading. It's the same word Paul used in 1 Cor 7:30, for example, translated as posses.

When "hold" a title to property or "hold" an office like The President, you mean that you possess it. Not that you have a grip on it with your hands.

Grip on it with your hands.
How about a grip on it with your mental facilities.
People who wish to believe they conveniently cannot loss their salvation are incredibly good at writing their own dictionary.

Unfortunately, it's not correctly written since it does not agree with either Jesus' teaching or Paul's.

I don't have a bible here, but JLB has posted excellent scripture that requires no translation.

 

[atpollard]

Eph 2:8 says by faith we "have been saved". Sounds like the past tense in English, but in the Greek, it is PERFECT TENSE, and I've included the websites that address the perfect tense.
So please address the issue of the OP; that we have been saved in the perfect tense and what that means. It means we continue to be saved. The present tense of "have been saved" is NOT related to "by faith". Yes, one must believe to be saved, but here, we are saved in the perfect tense, which means on-going results that are not related to "by faith".
So your comment about the need for on-going faith is false.

Is there a sense in which there are two very different frames of reference presented in scripture? When reading the Psalms, I frequently encounter things that make perfect sense from the perspective of a suffering or longing or even joyful human heart ... looking up towards God, but sort of rub against the fur when viewed from the eternal, heavenly, God perspective. Likewise, there are things that are presented from the Heavenly perspective that don't quite seem right from the human point of view. A specific example is when was I "saved"? From one perspective (God's POV) it was before the foundation of the world. Which means that God knew me as forgiven when I was setting people on fire? That hardly seems 'correct' from the human POV. From the human POV, I was "saved" when God made me an offer that I couldn't refuse. Which some scripture disagrees with.

Addressing the OP specifically, is it possible that the perfect tense is from the God's ETERNAL NOW point-of-view? The Alpha and Omega sees our salvation as complete because those who will persevere are those who are with him and are those whom he foreknew, predestined and chose ... in eternity past ... in the ETERNAL NOW.

From the point-of-view of we who are struggling through life, we lack eyes to see who was predestined and will, therefore, persevere. We struggle to run the good race and finish well. To be the seed planted on good soil and not choked out by weeds. We resolve and pray to not grow weary in doing good. So from our human POV, it appears that salvation is a thing that can be lost, not because it is insecure, but because we cannot see the true salvation from the counterfeit.

And the reason we cannot see the difference, is that the difference is not found within us ... the difference is found within God. Whom we can serve and trust and love, but can never fully know. He is God and we are not.

Just my 2 cent contribution.
Arthur