Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[GodsGrace]

Is there a sense in which there are two very different frames of reference presented in scripture? When reading the Psalms, I frequently encounter things that make perfect sense from the perspective of a suffering or longing or even joyful human heart ... looking up towards God, but sort of rub against the fur when viewed from the eternal, heavenly, God perspective. Likewise, there are things that are presented from the Heavenly perspective that don't quite seem right from the human point of view. A specific example is when was I "saved"? From one perspective (God's POV) it was before the foundation of the world. Which means that God knew me as forgiven when I was setting people on fire? That hardly seems 'correct' from the human POV. From the human POV, I was "saved" when God made me an offer that I couldn't refuse. Which some scripture disagrees with.

Addressing the OP specifically, is it possible that the perfect tense if from the God's ETERNAL NOW point-of-view? The Alpha and Omega sees our salvation as complete because those who will persevere are those who are with him and are those whom he foreknew, predestined and chose ... in eternity past ... in the ETERNAL NOW.

From the point-of-view of we who are struggling through life, we lack eyes to see who was predestined and will, therefore, persevere. We struggle to run the good race and finish well. To be the seed planted on good soil and not choked out by weeds. We resolve and pray to not grow weary in doing good. So from our human POV, it appears that salvation is a thing that can be lost, not because it is insecure, but because we cannot see the true salvation from the counterfeit.

And the reason we cannot see the difference, is that the difference is not found within us ... the difference is found within God. Whom we can serve and trust and love, but can never fully know. He is God and we are not.

Just my 2 cent contribution.
Arthur

It's not our doing " good" that saves us and keeps us saved, although it is necessary as per James 2.
It is our faith in Jesus, Epsesians 2:8

As long as I have faith I am saved.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

It's not personal.
Let's say I accept faith in God, believe Jesus is Lord and Savior, that He died for my sin and sins, past, present and future, that He died for me and did resurrect to life as will I.

Years pass and due to a tragedy in the family I lose all belief. I come to hate God and His ways.
I hate everyone, I drink, mistreat people , am permiscuous and who knows what else. I do not look to God for forgiveness. There is no repentance.

Am I saved and going to be with the God I hate?

God only knows your final thoughts in life.
God only knows your final destination.
If the Holy Spirit was once in control of your life, then he still is.
He's bigger than you.
But let's face it, if you ever truly loved God, he would be there to help you through your trials and your love for God would grow stronger, not weaker.
God doesn't recruit losers and let them continue on as losers.
He recruits losers and turns them into winners.

That's how we have:
Victory in Jesus, our Savior, forever.
He sought me, and Bought me, with his redeeming blood
He loved me ere I knew him
And all my love is due him
He plunged me to victory
Beneath the cleansing flood

No losers on this team.

When we all get to heaven,
What a day of rejoicing that will be
When we all see Jesus
We'll sing and shout the victory.

 

[JLB]

Romans 5:20
Romans 7:7

Now if you don't see sin here in these verses, then you are nitpicking because that would break your long standing record of 14,683 posts with ever losing a debate.
It's all in your mind.

Brother,


I'm not quoting Romans.

The verses I quoted are from Galatians 5.

Paul describes the works of the flesh, to the Church in Galatia, and warns them about those who practice the works of the flesh.

Why would Paul warn the Gentile Christians, about practicing the works of the flesh, if it was a reference to the law?

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


... of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


JLB

 

[smaller]

No, don't get personal.

I'll get personal. I had/have a close family member. After I was saved this family member (others as well) treated me as a pariah, an outcast. I could do nothing right in this persons eyes. It was almost as if this person was possessed, to treat me vilely. It caused me no end of grief, and really nearly destroyed my life. The friction involved eventually caused me to move out and away from the area, because I could not deal with the constant vexations. I had to walk away.

I did pray about this matter many many many times. Many. Seeking peace. Seeking God's Intervention. Anything. Please make it stop. It didn't. It got worse, which resulted in the above.

At the height of this resistance I prayed about God sending this person to death and hell. I knew this person was not saved. And, in my spirit, God asked me a very simple question. Would you want that request done unto YOU? OBVIOUSLY it did not take me long to repent of that thought. Not long at all. No Father, I do not wish that to happen to this person, nor any person for that matter. I do not want to harbor that kind of thought, that kind of judgment to anyone. Not even my enemies. I'll take the scorn for whatever it brings, but I will not ask that ever again. And, again, in my spirit, I knew the lesson was learned. It brought me great internal peace. A peace I would not exchange for anything in this world:

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

The event above transpired over 30 years ago. Today this person and I get along just FINE. No problems whatsoever. And I might add that God did not treat this person very well subsequently. Now wracked with numerous physical ailments, this person has my pity. And, I think in part from my witness, this person also believes to some extent. What extent that may be I can not say, nor do I desire to say, but enough, I believe, to be saved. Adverse judgment left my heart long ago, in peace. It was an internal hot potato I was happy to set aside.

So, in observations, we have great bodies of believers who condemn each others over 3 words, casting dispersion's of heresy and potential eternal damnations upon each others over those 3 words. And in their pompous self righteousness, they sit in condemnation, and the fires of hell to other believers no less, constantly inflame their lives.

They too have my pity. God has taken they themselves into judgment. And they will not get out til they LISTEN to what God in Christ had to say, above. In the meantime the fire of hell will remain upon their tongue, the garb of hypocrisy and an utter lack of judgment upon their own sorry hides will continue to consume them til they are laid away in the grave of their forthcoming dust pile.

Maybe later, they will see better, when that flesh is peeled from their eyes.

 

[GodsGrace]

God only knows your final thoughts in life.
God only knows your final destination.
If the Holy Spirit was once in control of your life, then he still is.
He's bigger than you.
But let's face it, if you ever truly loved God, he would be there to help you through your trials and your love for God would grow stronger, not weaker.
God doesn't recruit losers and let them continue on as losers.
He recruits losers and turns them into winners.

That's how we have:
Victory in Jesus, our Savior, forever.
He sought me, and Bought me, with his redeeming blood
He loved me ere I knew him
And all my love is due him
He plunged me to victory
Beneath the cleansing flood

No losers on this team.

When we all get to heaven,
What a day of rejoicing that will be
When we all see Jesus
We'll sing and shout the victory.

Yes. I agree about the final thoughts.
Sometimes we don't have time for final thoughts and we should be ready at all times.
A woman here in my town was hit by a bus about a week ago and died instantly. I thought about this.

What you're saying is that the person who fell away was never really saved. But Jesus did teach that one could be saved for a time and then stop believing in the parable of the sower and when He spoke of persevering.

Being saved forever after first coming to God is a fairly new idea, from the 1800's, I believe. This idea did not exist before this time. Were all prior theologians dumb??

 

[veryberry]

" I believe it depends on your standing with God at the moment of your death"

Romans 6:3 - Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

You are already dead!!! and here is you standing at your death....Please take the time and read and notice how it all present tense not future. You have been crucified with Jesus Christ and been put to death the moment you trusted How that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day for our justification.

Romans 5:1-11 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have PEACE with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace WHEREIN WE STAND, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing the tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, BEING NOW JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

For if, WHEN WE WERE ENEMIES, WE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom WE HAVE NOW RECEIVED THE ATONEMENT.

 

[atpollard]

It's not our doing " good" that saves us and keeps us saved, although it is necessary as per James 2.
It is our faith in Jesus, Ephesians 2:8
As long as I have faith I am saved.

Agreed ... I was just making a brief reference to Galatians 6:9-10 ... which is something we are instructed to do.
"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers."

Just for the record, I am a 5 point Calvinist (Reformed Baptist) ... so I take no credit for my salvation and hold no fear of slipping from God's grip.
("good deeds" are motivated by love and gratitude ... the fruit of the change, not the root). :wink

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yes. I agree about the final thoughts.
Sometimes we don't have time for final thoughts and we should be ready at all times.
A woman here in my town was hit by a bus about a week ago and died instantly. I thought about this.

What you're saying is that the person who fell away was never really saved. But Jesus did teach that one could be saved for a time and then stop believing in the parable of the sower and when He spoke of persevering.

Being saved forever after first coming to God is a fairly new idea, from the 1800's, I believe. This idea did not exist before this time. Were all prior theologians dumb??

Then please explain Psalm 23:6.

 

[GodsGrace]

" I believe it depends on your standing with God at the moment of your death"

Romans 6:3 - Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

You are already dead!!! and here is you standing at your death....Please take the time and read and notice how it all present tense not future. You have been crucified with Jesus Christ and been put to death the moment you trusted How that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day for our justification.

Romans 5:1-11 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have PEACE with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace WHEREIN WE STAND, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing the tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, BEING NOW JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

For if, WHEN WE WERE ENEMIES, WE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom WE HAVE NOW RECEIVED THE ATONEMENT.

You're speaking to me?
You say yourself that all tenses are present.
I agree with you.
" for whosoever believeth" is present. John 3:16.
If you Believe, present tense, you indeed are saved.

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

MarkT said: ↑
to hold fast - don't let go

You have to continue in your belief (don't let go) or your believing (that which you believed at first) was for naught. ie.in vain.

Seems pretty simple, doesn't it?
But some here like to change the meaning of words or phrases to suit their own doctrine, which, BTW, was never the understanding of the early church.

Our salvation is NOT by "not letting go". In fact, we CAN'T let go. There are NO verses that say such a thing.

And Jesus taught us why we can't let go. We are in His hands. Not the other way around. John 10:28

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You're speaking to me?
You say yourself that all tenses are present.
I agree with you.
" for whosoever believeth" is present. John 3:16.
If you Believe, present tense, you indeed are saved.

Wondering

That's a real copout of an answer.
Try again.

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed ... I was just making a brief reference to Galatians 6:9-10 ... which is something we are instructed to do.
"Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers."

Just for the record, I am a 5 point Calvinist (Reformed Baptist) ... so I take no credit for my salvation and hold no fear of slipping from God's grip.
("good deeds" are motivated by love and gratitude ... the fruit of the change, not the root). ;)

A 5 point Calvanist should be very worried.

I CHOOSE to serve God of my own free will and plan to continue to do so all my living days.

You, OTOH, must hope till the end that you really are one of God's elect and not one of those who falls away and " was never really saved at all. "

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

MarkT said: ↑
to hold fast - don't let go

You have to continue in your belief (don't let go) or your believing (that which you believed at first) was for naught. ie.in vain.

Our salvation is NOT by "not letting go". In fact, we CAN'T let go. There are NO verses that say such a thing.

And Jesus taught us why we can't let go. We are in His hands. Not the other way around. John 10:28

There's no verse that says we could sin and not have faith and still be saved.
If you've found one, please share.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You're speaking to me?
You say yourself that all tenses are present.
I agree with you.
" for whosoever believeth" is present. John 3:16.
If you Believe, present tense, you indeed are saved.

Wondering

King David said, "and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".
I'm not very good with English, but I think "forever" is both present tense and future tense.

 

[FreeGrace]

How could one be saved. " maybe" ?
You are saved as long as you trust in the Lord for your salvation.

IF you ever decide to leave Him and that trust, for whatever reason, you can no longer be saved.

What verse says this?

You believe. = you're saved
You don't believe = you're not saved.

No?

No. The loss of salvation position has failed to properly address and explain all the things that MUST be un-done if one actually loses salvation.

Here's a list of what changes when one believes and is saved.
1. They ARE saved. Eph 2:8, Acts 16:31
2. They HAVE eternal life. An irrevocable gift, btw. John 3:16, 6:40, 20:31
3. They ARE justified. Rom 5:1
4. They ARE forgiven for all sins, not just "past sins". Heb 9-10
5. They ARE children of God. John 1:12, 1 Tim 1:16, Gal 3:26
6. They HAVE an inheritance as children of God. Rom 8:17

All of these things MUST be UN-done if salvation can be lost.

So please provide the verses for each point that say that these things are UN-done, revoked, taken away, lost, forfeited, or any other wording that communicates loss.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is the A & T Forum.
Please use scripture from an acceptable Bible version.

Please define what is acceptable in your view.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
JLB

Please explain how this verse supports your request.

 

[smaller]

We might be cognizant that we do have an adverse spirit adversary who seeks, constantly, by hook or by crook, to TAKE AWAY salvation, The Living Word, from our hearts:

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

If we manage to be led of Christ past that hurdle, other hurdles will be quickly brought forth.

Bank on it.

 

[FreeGrace]

You go to heaven - maybe - depending on your standing with God at the very moment you die.

Our "standing" with God was settled the MOMENT of faith in Christ. We are placed in union with Him, and sealed for the day of redemption.

Nothing else matters.

This statement totally ignores the grace of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's a real copout of an answer.
Try again.

How is that a copout answer?
I wish I could post the Didache.
Would you be willing to do that?
And let's see what those who Knew John the Apostle thought we had to do to get to be in the Kingdom, both now and after death.
It was:
Knowing Jesus
Being part of the Church and church
Doing good works.

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

It's not personal.
Let's say I accept faith in God, believe Jesus is Lord and Savior, that He died for my sin and sins, past, present and future, that He died for me and did resurrect to life as will I.

Years pass and due to a tragedy in the family I lose all belief. I come to hate God and His ways.
I hate everyone, I drink, mistreat people , am permiscuous and who knows what else. I do not look to God for forgiveness. There is no repentance.

Am I saved and going to be with the God I hate?

The only legitimate question is this one:
For how many sins of yours did Christ die? The answer to that answers your question.