Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[veryberry]

Great!!! But you cannot be unjustified

You are now justified, Now at peace with God, Now reconciled to God, Now are attoned for. You are now dead, reckon it to be so.

 

[FreeGrace]

Chessman,
If you let go of something, you don't possess it anymore.

In any language...

I already gave an example of the difference between possession and ownership. When one believes, they are God's possession. He owns us. Eph 1:13,14.

Even if I stole your car or house key, you still own the car or house, and my "possession" of it is immaterial. When the law catches up with me, I ain't gonna keep your car or house, right?

 

[FreeGrace]

Grip on it with your hands.

Is that how you understand your own salvation. That it must be gripped with your hands??

How about a grip on it with your mental facilities.

Explain that one, please.

People who wish to believe they conveniently cannot loss their salvation are incredibly good at writing their own dictionary.

How come no one from the loss of salvation side has EVER quoted a verse that says that one can lose their salvation?

 

[GodsGrace]

Then please explain Psalm 23:6.

Sure.
As long as you're trusting in God.
Plus, we have the words of Jesus and Paul.
I think we could trust them.

Do you think God's goodness and mercy follows a murderer who believed in Jesus years ago and then fell away? I doubt it. He's following Satan NOW. No goodness and mercy for him.

 

[GodsGrace]

I already gave an example of the difference between possession and ownership. When on believes, they are God's possession. He owns us. Eph 1:13,14.

Even if I stole your car or house key, you still own the car or house, and my "possession" of it is immaterial. When the law catches up with me, I ain't gonna keep your car or house, right?

FreeGrace, you're not familiar with law. Ask your attorney:
Possession is 90 % !

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

How is that a copout answer?
I wish I could post the Didache.
Would you be willing to do that?
And let's see what those who Knew John the Apostle thought we had to do to get to be in the Kingdom, both now and after death.
It was:
Knowing Jesus
Being part of the Church and church
Doing good works.

Wondering

Yes, and the Roman Catholic Church is still racking in the bucks on that one.

 

[FreeGrace]

Addressing the OP specifically, is it possible that the perfect tense is from the God's ETERNAL NOW point-of-view?

God's point of view is His omniscience. He knows all things. Period.

The Alpha and Omega sees our salvation as complete because those who will persevere are those who are with him and are those whom he foreknew, predestined and chose ... in eternity past ... in the ETERNAL NOW.

If perseverance is necessary for ultimate salvation, then one's salvation is by works, not by grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. NIV

So from our human POV, it appears that salvation is a thing that can be lost, not because it is insecure, but because we cannot see the true salvation from the counterfeit.

There are no verses that say or teach this.

 

[GodsGrace]

King David said, "and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".
I'm not very good with English, but I think "forever" is both present tense and future tense.

King David said it.
I believe he was saved by his faith in God.
(The Davidic Covenant)

 

[atpollard]

You, OTOH, must hope till the end that you really are one of God's elect and not one of those who falls away and " was never really saved at all. "

I just have to 'hope' that the Bible isn't a lie and Jesus really rose from the dead ... and if THAT foundation is false, then we all have bigger problems than Arminianism vs Calvinism. Frankly, even if there was no eternal life, I would still choose to serve God and trust Jesus in this one. My life as a Christian had been much better than my life before Christ ever was.

 

[FreeGrace]

What you're saying is that the person who fell away was never really saved. But Jesus did teach that one could be saved for a time and then stop believing in the parable of the sower and when He spoke of persevering.

Please don't misquote Scripture. Jesus NEVER said anything about being "saved for a time". He SAID "believe for a while". We mustn't assume what isn't stated plainly.

Being saved forever after first coming to God is a fairly new idea, from the 1800's, I believe.

Well, you're just believing an opinion.

This idea did not exist before this time.

Untrue. Paul described several gifts of God in Romans, including justification and eternal life, before he noted that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Were all prior theologians dumb??

By the second century, the idea of grace had been twisted about, leading to the RCC, which viewed salvation as sometime to earn and could be lost.

 

[GodsGrace]

What verse says this?


No. The loss of salvation position has failed to properly address and explain all the things that MUST be un-done if one actually loses salvation.

Here's a list of what changes when one believes and is saved.
1. They ARE saved. Eph 2:8, Acts 16:31
2. They HAVE eternal life. An irrevocable gift, btw. John 3:16, 6:40, 20:31
3. They ARE justified. Rom 5:1
4. They ARE forgiven for all sins, not just "past sins". Heb 9-10
5. They ARE children of God. John 1:12, 1 Tim 1:16, Gal 3:26
6. They HAVE an inheritance as children of God. Rom 8:17

All of these things MUST be UN-done if salvation can be lost.

So please provide the verses for each point that say that these things are UN-done, revoked, taken away, lost, forfeited, or any other wording that communicates loss.

They HAVE
They ARE
IF they BELIEVE

I did say all sin, past, present and future, While Believing Presently.
You forgot to post the verse that states
I could sin and still be saved.

Jesus to the adulteress: Go and sin no more.
Why would He tell her to sin no more if it didn't matter and she'd be saved ANYWAY??

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

There's no verse that says we could sin and not have faith and still be saved.
If you've found one, please share.

I have already, in another thread.

In 1 Thess 5:4-10, Paul contrasts the lifestyle of unbelievers with the lifestyle of believers. That's how to understand v.10.

You're welcome.

 

[GodsGrace]

The only legitimate question is this one:
For how many sins of yours did Christ die? The answer to that answers your question.

He died for all ALL my sins as long as I have faith in Him to save me because I certainly cannot do it myself which is what I would be trying to do if I HAD NO FAITH in Him!!

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace, you're not familiar with law. Ask your attorney:
Possession is 90 % !

Great! Then I'll consider taking your car AND house keys! Thanks for the tip.

Sheesh. It appears I'm not the one unfamiliar with law. lol

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Sure.
As long as you're trusting in God.
Plus, we have the words of Jesus and Paul.
I think we could trust them.

Do you think God's goodness and mercy follows a murderer who believed in Jesus years ago and then fell away? I doubt it. He's following Satan NOW. No goodness and mercy for him.

And which murderer are you referring to that quoted this?
I don't believe there has been one.
Now King David was a murderer as was Paul.
But their change toward God came afterwards.
They were no longer murderers, they were saved forever.

Let me ask a general question here?
Why are people so afraid of God?
Why are Christians afraid of God?
They are afraid they might do something wrong and God will punish them and take away their salvation.
Why do they look at the flesh of another and determine how God looks at that person?

Why can't we be happy, that God gives us eternal life, and then build each other up to do good and please God all the days of our lives?
And if some fail to do this, then we pray for them.
There's no reason to debate forever if such a person is really saved or not.
Because the answer is that it's out of our control anyway.

So I ask again, why are Christians living in daily fear that they might die and God will throw them into the lake of fire for all eternity?
It's because they have no victory in Jesus.
Somewhere along the way, they've lost their joy.

Well, get it back.
He that is in you is stronger than he that is in the world.
What you are going through is a trial, a spiritual trial and the enemy would love to win and keep you defeated your whole life.
He wants to take away your joy and keep you worried and end up doing nothing to further God's kingdom.

Don't quit.
Put on the full armor of God right now!
And go out there and prove you are a winner!

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, and the Roman Catholic Church is still racking in the bucks on that one.

How?

 

[GodsGrace]

God's point of view is His omniscience. He knows all things. Period.


If perseverance is necessary for ultimate salvation, then one's salvation is by works, not by grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. NIV


There are no verses that say or teach this.

You love Romans.
You hate James.
" faith without works is dead".

 

[FreeGrace]

I posted this:
"Here's a list of what changes when one believes and is saved.
1. They ARE saved. Eph 2:8, Acts 16:31
2. They HAVE eternal life. An irrevocable gift, btw. John 3:16, 6:40, 20:31
3. They ARE justified. Rom 5:1
4. They ARE forgiven for all sins, not just "past sins". Heb 9-10
5. They ARE children of God. John 1:12, 1 Tim 1:16, Gal 3:26
6. They HAVE an inheritance as children of God. Rom 8:17

All of these things MUST be UN-done if salvation can be lost.

So please provide the verses for each point that say that these things are UN-done, revoked, taken away, lost, forfeited, or any other wording that communicates loss."

They HAVE
They ARE
IF they BELIEVE

Once again, your position fails to provide any verse that teaches that any of these things that occur at salvation can be UN-done.

I did say all sin, past, present and future, While Believing Presently.

Where is this taught in Scripture?

You forgot to post the verse that states
I could sin and still be saved.

Good heavens!! We all still continue to sin.
1 John 1:8, 10
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. NIV

If sin causes loss of salvation, then Jesus Christ died for NOTHING. But He died for our sins. All of them. But your position seems unaware of that fact.

Jesus to the adulteress: Go and sin no more.
Why would He tell her to sin no more if it didn't matter and she'd be saved ANYWAY??

Wondering

Why assume that Jesus was speaking of how to be saved in that text??

 

[FreeGrace]

He died for all ALL my sins as long as I have faith in Him to save me because I certainly cannot Dave myself which is what I would be trying to do if I HAD NO FAITH in Him!!

Everything after "ALL my sins" is nonsense.

Please show the verse that says "as long as...". Such a statement is adding to Scripture what ISN'T THERE.

 

[GodsGrace]

I just have to 'hope' that the Bible isn't a lie and Jesus really rose from the dead ... and if THAT foundation is false, then we all have bigger problems than Arminianism vs Calvinism. Frankly, even if there was no eternal life, I would still choose to serve God and trust Jesus in this one. My life as a Christian had been much better than my life before Christ ever was.

Amen brother.
And the resurrection is real. We could trust the Apostles on that.
We're still brothers in the Lord even though we disagree on eternal salvation .