Peter not the rock nor the first Pope

[NewLifeInChrist]

Matt 27:41Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders, said,​

Matt 28:12When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers,​

Mark 7:3For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders.​

Mark 7:5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”​

Mark 8:31And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.​

Mark 11:27Then they came again to Jerusalem. And as He was walking in the temple, the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders came to Him.​

Mark 14:43And immediately, while He was still speaking, Judas, one of the twelve, with a great multitude with swords and clubs, came from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders.​

Mark 14:53And they led Jesus away to the high priest; and with him were assembled all the chief priests, the elders, and the scribes.​

Mark 15:1Immediately, in the morning, the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council; and they bound Jesus, led Him away, and delivered Him to Pilate.​

Luke 7:3So when he heard about Jesus, he sent elders of the Jews to Him, pleading with Him to come and heal his servant.​

Luke 9:22saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.”​

Luke 15:25“Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing.​

Luke 20:1Now it happened on one of those days, as He taught the people in the temple and preached the gospel, that the chief priests and the scribes, together with the elders, confronted Him​

Luke 22:52Then Jesus said to the chief priests, captains of the temple, and the elders who had come to Him, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs?​

John 8:9Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.​

(Continued)

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Acts 2:17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.​

Acts 4:5And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes,​

Acts 4:8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel:​

Acts 4:23And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them.​

Acts 6:12And they stirred up the people, the elders, and the scribes; and they came upon him, seized him, and brought him to the council.​

Acts 11:30This they also did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.​

Acts 14:23So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.​

Acts 15:2Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.​

Acts 15:4And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them.​

Acts 15:6Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.​

Acts 15:22Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.​

(Continued)​

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Acts 15:23They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.​

Acts 16:4And as they went through the cities, they delivered to them the decrees to keep, which were determined by the apostles and elders at Jerusalem.​

Acts 20:17From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church.​

Acts 21:18On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.​

Acts 23:14They came to the chief priests and elders, and said, “We have bound ourselves under a great oath that we will eat nothing until we have killed Paul.​

Acts 24:1Now after five days Ananias the high priest came down with the elders and a certain orator named Tertullus. These gave evidence to the governor against Paul.​

Acts 25:15about whom the chief priests and the elders of the Jews informed me, when I was in Jerusalem, asking for a judgment against him.​

1 Tim 5:1Do not rebuke an older man, but exhort him as a father, younger men as brothers,​

1 Tim 5:2older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, with all purity.​

1 Tim 5:17Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.​

(Continued)​

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

1 Tim 5:19Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.​

Titus 1:5For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you—​

Heb 11:2For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.​

James 5:14Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.​

1 Pet 5:1The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:​

1 Pet 5:5Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”​

2 John 1The Elder, To the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth,​

3 John 1The Elder, To the beloved Gaius, whom I love in truth:​

Rev 4:4Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.​

Rev 4:10the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:​

Rev 5:5But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”​

Rev 5:6And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.​

Rev 5:8Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.​

Rev 5:11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,​

Rev 5:14Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.​

Rev 7:11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,​

Rev 7:13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”​

Rev 11:16And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,​

Rev 14:3They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.​

Rev 19:4And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!”​

 

[JLB]

1 Tim 5:19Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.​

Titus 1:5For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you—​

Heb 11:2For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.​

James 5:14Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.​

1 Pet 5:1The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:​

1 Pet 5:5Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”​

2 John 1The Elder, To the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth,​

3 John 1The Elder, To the beloved Gaius, whom I love in truth:​

Rev 4:4Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.​

Rev 4:10the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:​

Rev 5:5But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”​

Rev 5:6And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.​

Rev 5:8Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.​

Rev 5:11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,​

Rev 5:14Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.​

Rev 7:11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,​

Rev 7:13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”​

Rev 11:16And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,​

Rev 14:3They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.​

Rev 19:4And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia​

What is your point?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I thought when you posted the following comment you were saying we did not all have equal access to God, but needed to go to God through others...

So? We’re surrounded by evil spirits and false doctrines, some people on this very forum deny Jesus’s deity, preach “sinless perfection” and defend homosexuality, we do need sound teachings from others, lest we be deceived. If you have direct access to God, then believe it or not, God will send you to these “others” to get educated.

 

[Walpole]

I thought when you posted the following comment you were saying we did not all have equal access to God, but needed to go to God through others...

we have formed very different worldviews, and through the lenses of which we only see what we wanna see in the Bible - to you, “all priests with equal access to God;” to me, bishops, deacons and pastors ordained by God to teach others.​

Your post perfectly demonstrates why you do not have priests: because your sect is not incarnational. Thus, you subscribe to this "I have a direct line to God" concept, which of course is a completely foreign concept to those of us who profess Christ. For Christianity (Catholicism) is a religion of revelation, whereby in the beginning God uses man to convey His message. This act of using man to convey His message culminates when God entered into His creation by becoming Man. By virtue of the Incarnation, God now continues to use man to convey not only His message, but now His grace.

The logical end of this "I have a direct line to God" idea would thus lead to the belief that...

- One can formulate one's own credal statements about Who God Is
- One can pen one's own Scripture
- One can preach one's own sermons
- One can baptize himself
- One can marry himself
- One can ordain himself
- One can anoint himself
- One can forgive his own sins by confessing them to himself
- One can confect one's own Eucharistic sacrifice


The reality is the Church is an extension of the Incarnation. As such, it is at the altar where man has true communion with Him, present among His people. This is something you will never find in any Protestant service and explains the reason why you do not have priests. You have yourself (the ego).

 

[Walpole]

​

Here are all the verses in the NT with the Greek word for "elder":

Matt 15:2“Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”​

Matt 16:21From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.​

Matt 21:23Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?”​

Matt 26:3Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,​

Matt 26:47And while He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, with a great multitude with swords and clubs, came from the chief priests and elders of the people.​

Matt 26:57And those who had laid hold of Jesus led Him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.​

Matt 26:59Now the chief priests, the elders, and all the council sought false testimony against Jesus to put Him to death,​

Matt 27:1When morning came, all the chief priests and elders of the people plotted against Jesus to put Him to death.​

Matt 27:3Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,​

Matt 27:12And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing.​

Matt 27:20But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus.​

(Continued)

In Christianity, priest, presbyter and elder are synonymous. It is someone who offers the Eucharistic sacrifice.

It is only because the founders of the Protestant religions removed sacrifice from their religious services that their progeny now view elders as merely teachers or a sort of cohort of advisors.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Your post perfectly demonstrates why you do not have priests: because your sect is not incarnational. Thus, you subscribe to this "I have a direct line to God" concept, which of course is a completely foreign concept to those of us who profess Christ. For Christianity (Catholicism) is a religion of revelation, whereby in the beginning God uses man to convey His message. This act of using man to convey His message culminates when God entered into His creation by becoming Man. By virtue of the Incarnation, God now continues to use man to convey not only His message, but now His grace.

The logical end of this "I have a direct line to God" idea would thus lead to the belief that...

- One can formulate one's own credal statements about Who God Is
- One can pen one's own Scripture
- One can preach one's own sermons
- One can baptize himself
- One can marry himself
- One can ordain himself
- One can anoint himself
- One can forgive his own sins by confessing them to himself
- One can confect one's own Eucharistic sacrifice


The reality is the Church is an extension of the Incarnation. As such, it is at the altar where man has true communion with Him, present among His people. This is something you will never find in any Protestant service and explains the reason why you do not have priests. You have yourself (the ego).

We must be careful with this "direct line to God" narrative. Originally this was a polemic against the Catholic priesthood which prides itself as the middle man between God and man, but in our current cultural context, this often puffs one up, giving them a sense of entitlement and feeding into their own ego; instead of they being members of the church, the church is now an extension of them. If the church is the body of Christ, you know what that makes such persons? Cancer. So you see, the real danger lies not in this "direct access to God" narrative itself, you can always proof-text it with certain verses, but the implications thereof when you take it out of context and spam it as a bumper sticker slogan.

 

[Walpole]

We must be careful with this "direct line to God" narrative. Originally this was a polemic against the Catholic priesthood which prides itself as the middle man between God and man, but in our current cultural context, this often puffs one up, giving them a sense of entitlement and feeding into their own ego; instead of they being members of the church, the church is now an extension of them. If the church is the body of Christ, you know what that makes such persons? Cancer. So you see, the real danger lies not in this "direct access to God" narrative itself, you can always proof-text it with certain verses, but the implications thereof when you take it out of context and spam it as a bumper sticker slogan.

Salvation history is about God using man to convey His message; culminating in His ultimate act of using man by His becoming one.

There is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God." Never. Not anyone.

All the things Christ said you must do to be saved, such as be baptized, have faith, practice charity, confess, partake of the Eucharist, etc. These are all things done by and through the Church, which again is an extension of the Incarnation. None of these are even possible with a "just me and Jesus" theology or if one has "a direct line to God."

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Salvation history is about God using man to convey His message; culminating in His ultimate act of using man by His becoming one.

There is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God." Never. Not anyone.

All the things Christ said you must do to be saved, such as be baptized, have faith, practice charity, confess, partake of the Eucharist, etc. These are all things done by and through the Church, which again is an extension of the Incarnation. None of these are even possible with a "just me and Jesus" theology or if one has "a direct line to God."

Yeah, I agree with everything you said. But apparently many people do believe that they have a "direct line to God", they've taken that as the foregone conclusion of the Protestant reformation.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Salvation history is about God using man to convey His message; culminating in His ultimate act of using man by His becoming one.

There is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God." Never. Not anyone.

All the things Christ said you must do to be saved, such as be baptized, have faith, practice charity, confess, partake of the Eucharist, etc. These are all things done by and through the Church, which again is an extension of the Incarnation. None of these are even possible with a "just me and Jesus" theology or if one has "a direct line to God."

Yeah, I agree with everything you said. But apparently many people do believe that they have a "direct line to God", they've taken that as the foregone conclusion of the Protestant reformation.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

What is your point?

Sorry, I should have explained instead of just blasting out Scriptures.

There are no Bible verses that say that the NT church has priests. I posted all the verses containing the Greek word for "priest" to show that. Walpole pointed to several verses that have the greek word for "elder", which means "an elderly person" as proof that it does. I posted all the verses in the NT that contained the Greek word for "elder" to show that it is clear the word is not used in any way to indicater we have priests.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Yeah, I agree with everything you said. But apparently many people do believe that they have a "direct line to God", they've taken that as the foregone conclusion of the Protestant reformation.

We do have a direct line to God. What in the world are you saying? We need to go to other people to get to God? That thought is anathema.

 

[JLB]

There are no Bible verses that say that the NT church has priests.

Everyone who is a Christian, a born again Christian; those who are in Christ are priests.


But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10

And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.” Revelation 5:9-10


Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 20:6




JLB

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Salvation history is about God using man to convey His message; culminating in His ultimate act of using man by His becoming one.

There is no such concept of anyone having a "direct line to God." Never. Not anyone.

All the things Christ said you must do to be saved, such as be baptized, have faith, practice charity, confess, partake of the Eucharist, etc. These are all things done by and through the Church, which again is an extension of the Incarnation. None of these are even possible with a "just me and Jesus" theology or if one has "a direct line to God."

Have you never read John 6:45?

It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. (Jn 6:45)​

Do you not know that under the new covenant we don't need human intermediaries?

No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. (Je 31:34)​

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Everyone who is a Christian, a born again Christian; those who are in Christ are priests.


But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10

And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.” Revelation 5:9-10


Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 20:6




JLB

Yes, of course. All saints (i.e., all true Christians) are in the royal priesthood. In that sense there are NT priests.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

We do have a direct line to God. What in the world are you saying? We need to go to other people to get to God? That thought is anathema.

What're you suggesting? "Solo christianity", through your "direct line to God"? That line is the body of Christ, which is the church. Without the church there's no "direct line". Jesus said when "two or three gather together, I'm in your midst", don't you think that require the presence of "others"?

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

What're you suggesting? "Solo christianity", through your "direct line to God"? That line is the body of Christ, which is the church. Without the church there's no "direct line". Jesus said when "two or three gather together, I'm in your midst", don't you think that require the presence of "others"?

Those are some very odd statements. It is almost as if you do not realize that Jesus resides in your heart. You do know He's in there, right? Here are some verses to heighten your awareness.

• If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. (Jn 14:23)
• And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Ro 8:10)
• Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. (2 Co 13:5)
• And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 Jn 5:11–12)

 

[Walpole]

Yeah, I agree with everything you said. But apparently many people do believe that they have a "direct line to God", they've taken that as the foregone conclusion of the Protestant reformation.

It is a concept completely foreign to historical Christianity and was a novel and progressive idea invented by the progenitors of the various Protestant religions.