Postmortem Opportunity aka Is there a second chance in the afterlife for those who never heard?

[Paul Timothy]

The OP cites the texts proving people rise from the grave to life.

I don't disagree.
To life and judgement.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't disagree.
To life and judgement.

Odd, I thought you were disagreeing.

I'm curious, how would you answer Porphyry or Beilby's own question:

If Christ declares Himself to be the Way of salvation, the Grace and the Truth, and affirms that in Him alone, and only to souls believing in Him, is the way of return to God, what has become of men who lived in the many centuries before Christ came? . . . What, then, has become of such an innumerable multitude of souls, who were in no wise blameworthy, seeing that He in whom alone saving faith can be exercised had not yet favored men with His advent?-PORPHYRY, AGAINST THE CHRISTIANS


If Christ is the only way and if there are millions who never hear of him, then any being worthy of the title “God” must have known this fact when he chose to create. And if he did know that millions would never even have an opportunity to be saved, it is impossible to think of God as perfectly loving. As such, even though I am lucky to be among those who hears the gospel, I cannot believe in a God who makes the opportunity to be saved a matter of temporal and geographical luck.-Beilby, James. Postmortem Opportunity (p. 1). InterVarsity Press. Kindle Edition.

This last is a bit strong, to make a point. I can believe God is perfect and loving, even if He did make the opportunity to be saved "a matter of temporal and geographical luck." But I can do that because I confess my ignorance, what appears to me to be luck wouldn't be. Its irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent I couldn't explain it, where was I when the Heavens were made and the sons of God sang out for joy?

BUT as I proved in the OP, the question doesn't exist for me, Postmortem opportunity to be saved exists. So I can answer these men, but can you?

 

[Paul Timothy]

Odd, I thought you were disagreeing.

I'm curious, how would you answer Porphyry or Beilby's own question:

If Christ declares Himself to be the Way of salvation, the Grace and the Truth, and affirms that in Him alone, and only to souls believing in Him, is the way of return to God, what has become of men who lived in the many centuries before Christ came? . . . What, then, has become of such an innumerable multitude of souls, who were in no wise blameworthy, seeing that He in whom alone saving faith can be exercised had not yet favored men with His advent?-PORPHYRY, AGAINST THE CHRISTIANS


If Christ is the only way and if there are millions who never hear of him, then any being worthy of the title “God” must have known this fact when he chose to create. And if he did know that millions would never even have an opportunity to be saved, it is impossible to think of God as perfectly loving. As such, even though I am lucky to be among those who hears the gospel, I cannot believe in a God who makes the opportunity to be saved a matter of temporal and geographical luck.-Beilby, James. Postmortem Opportunity (p. 1). InterVarsity Press. Kindle Edition.

I don't understand the question.
Could you rephrase the questions in basic English for me?

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't understand the question.
Could you rephrase the questions in basic English for me?

No.

I'm curious, how would you answer Porphyry or Beilby's own question:

If Christ declares Himself to be the Way of salvation, the Grace and the Truth, and affirms that in Him alone, and only to souls believing in Him, is the way of return to God, what has become of men who lived in the many centuries before Christ came? . . . What, then, has become of such an innumerable multitude of souls, who were in no wise blameworthy, seeing that He in whom alone saving faith can be exercised had not yet favored men with His advent?-PORPHYRY, AGAINST THE CHRISTIANS


If Christ is the only way and if there are millions who never hear of him, then any being worthy of the title “God” must have known this fact when he chose to create. And if he did know that millions would never even have an opportunity to be saved, it is impossible to think of God as perfectly loving. As such, even though I am lucky to be among those who hears the gospel, I cannot believe in a God who makes the opportunity to be saved a matter of temporal and geographical luck.-Beilby, James. Postmortem Opportunity (p. 1). InterVarsity Press. Kindle Edition.

I proved in the OP Postmortem opportunity to be saved exists. So I can answer these men, but can you?

 

[Paul Timothy]

No.

I'm curious, how would you answer Porphyry or Beilby's own question:

If Christ declares Himself to be the Way of salvation, the Grace and the Truth, and affirms that in Him alone, and only to souls believing in Him, is the way of return to God, what has become of men who lived in the many centuries before Christ came? . . . What, then, has become of such an innumerable multitude of souls, who were in no wise blameworthy, seeing that He in whom alone saving faith can be exercised had not yet favored men with His advent?-PORPHYRY, AGAINST THE CHRISTIANS


If Christ is the only way and if there are millions who never hear of him, then any being worthy of the title “God” must have known this fact when he chose to create. And if he did know that millions would never even have an opportunity to be saved, it is impossible to think of God as perfectly loving. As such, even though I am lucky to be among those who hears the gospel, I cannot believe in a God who makes the opportunity to be saved a matter of temporal and geographical luck.-Beilby, James. Postmortem Opportunity (p. 1). InterVarsity Press. Kindle Edition.

This last is a bit strong, to make a point. I can believe God is perfect and loving, even if He did make the opportunity to be saved "a matter of temporal and geographical luck." But I can do that because I confess my ignorance, what appears to me to be luck wouldn't be. Its irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent I couldn't explain it, where was I when the Heavens were made and the sons of God sang out for joy?

BUT as I proved in the OP, the question doesn't exist for me, Postmortem opportunity to be saved exists. So I can answer these men, but can you?

Sorry... I am a simple man.
If you can't help me with understanding these questions... I guess I can't help with an answer.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Sorry... I am a simple man.
If you can't help me with understanding these questions... I guess I can't help with an answer.

No, you are purposely wasting my time. Perhaps you find this sort of exchange "rewarding". Perhaps its what you meditate upon during your daily routine. How much fun you had "funning with Bible believers."

I understand. There's only so much one can do when the family brain cell is occupied. A man must find entertainment somewhere.

 

[Paul Timothy]

No, you are purposely wasting my time. Perhaps you find this sort of exchange "rewarding". Perhaps its what you meditate upon during your daily routine. How much fun you had funning with Bible believers.

Sorry... I don't follow old English... and that makes those questions difficult.

 

[jeremiah1five]

That's your opinion, not found in scripture as I proved.

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pet. 3:16.

'Nuff said.

 

[Free]

Everyone, please address the arguments and not the person. Any further personal attacks will result in being banned from this thread.

 

[GodsGrace]

No.

I'm curious, how would you answer Porphyry or Beilby's own question:

If Christ declares Himself to be the Way of salvation, the Grace and the Truth, and affirms that in Him alone, and only to souls believing in Him, is the way of return to God, what has become of men who lived in the many centuries before Christ came? . . . What, then, has become of such an innumerable multitude of souls, who were in no wise blameworthy, seeing that He in whom alone saving faith can be exercised had not yet favored men with His advent?-PORPHYRY, AGAINST THE CHRISTIANS


If Christ is the only way and if there are millions who never hear of him, then any being worthy of the title “God” must have known this fact when he chose to create. And if he did know that millions would never even have an opportunity to be saved, it is impossible to think of God as perfectly loving. As such, even though I am lucky to be among those who hears the gospel, I cannot believe in a God who makes the opportunity to be saved a matter of temporal and geographical luck.-Beilby, James. Postmortem Opportunity (p. 1). InterVarsity Press. Kindle Edition.

I proved in the OP Postmortem opportunity to be saved exists. So I can answer these men, but can you?

Just two comments on the above...

1. There's a difference between salvation in JESUS ONLY and being forgiven after death.

2. I live where only one Protestant church is avx to me. It believes as you do.

I think Paul made it very clear:
It is appointed for man to die once, and then comes the judgement.
Hebrews

 

[Alfred Persson]

Just two comments on the above...

1. There's a difference between salvation in JESUS ONLY and being forgiven after death.

2. I live where only one Protestant church is avx to me. It believes as you do.

I think Paul made it very clear:
It is appointed for man to die once, and then comes the judgement.
Hebrews

Salvation in Jesus only is called "Exclusivism". "Inclusivism" includes salvation by those who don't explicitly have faith in Jesus. "Universalism" is everyone gets saved.

My view is "Exclusivism", only those who explicitly profess faith in Jesus are saved.

The only difference between my view and traditional view is I say "men die once" and then there is a judgment if one will accept Christ as LORD. If they do, then they eagerly wait for Christ's second appearance for salvation, to be raised from the grave to a resurrection of life:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation (Jn. 5:25-29 NKJ)

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Paul did make it clear but few Christians realize Paul's view of the Afterlife (and Christ's and the Hillite Pharisees), was similar. Unlike the Greeks it was possible to be raised from Hades to life.

But Christian views of Hell became Greekized as Jews vanished from the church. Catholics changed things, and Protestants generally are very faithful to basic Catholic concepts of hell they inherited during the Reformation.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Sorry... I don't follow old English... and that makes those questions difficult.

I should apologize. Perhaps I misjudged the situation. What do you mean by "old English", you are from Canada, right?

 

[Paul Timothy]

I should apologize. Perhaps I misjudged the situation. What do you mean by "old English", you are from Canada, right?

The phrasing of these old questions get me a bit confused.
I do simple questions and honest answers.
If the question confuses me then I don't feel I can give an adequate answer.
Simple rephrasing would help me focus on giving an appropriate answer.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The phrasing of these old questions get me a bit confused.
I do simple questions and honest answers.
If the question confuses me then I don't feel I can give an adequate answer.
Simple rephrasing would help me focus on giving an appropriate answer.

The historical fix for not understanding is to use a dictionary and look up words you don't understand.

Also, if I now said to you:

"I am confused, rephrase what you just said so I understand"....

How will you know what words I don't understand?

Where to begin "rephrasing?"

And WHY should you do all the work? I WANT to understand---surely I can reread what you said a couple of times and think about it before concluding I don't understand.


Now I would be willing to explain difficult concepts, but not rephrase everything I said without knowing what you don't understand.

Therefore, copy paste the exact words you want me to explain,

But, it is easy to access online dictionaries and google concepts. Its what I do when I don't understand.

 

[Paul Timothy]

The historical fix for not understanding is to use a dictionary and look up words you don't understand.

Also, if I now said to you:

"I am confused, rephrase what you just said so I understand"....

How will you know what words I don't understand?

Where to begin "rephrasing?"

And WHY should you do all the work? I WANT to understand---surely I can reread what you said a couple of times and think about it before concluding I don't understand.


Now I would be willing to explain difficult concepts, but not rephrase everything I said without knowing what you don't understand.

Therefore, copy paste the exact words you want me to explain,

But, it is easy to access online dictionaries and google concepts. Its what I do when I don't understand.

It is not the words that are the issue... it is their arrangement.

I would answer your questions not the questions of some long dead individual.

To rephrase something is to put someone else's words into your own.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It is not the words that are the issue... it is their arrangement.

I would answer your questions not the questions of some long dead individual.

To rephrase something is to put someone else's words into your own.

So you did understand it. The original antagonist of Christianity is long dead, but his argument resonates today just as powerfully.

What can you say in defense of Christianity when people today ask:

If Christ declares Himself to be the Way of salvation, the Grace and the Truth, and affirms that in Him alone, and only to souls believing in Him, is the way of return to God, what has become of men who lived in the many centuries before Christ came? . . . What, then, has become of such an innumerable multitude of souls, who were in no wise blameworthy, seeing that He in whom alone saving faith can be exercised had not yet favored men with His advent?-PORPHYRY, AGAINST THE CHRISTIANS

Christians should have something to say in defense of Christianity:
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; (1 Pet. 3:15 NKJ)

 

[Paul Timothy]

So you did understand it. The original antagonist of Christianity is long dead, but his argument resonates today just as powerfully.

Understand what?

What can you say in defense of Christianity when people today ask:

If Christ declares Himself to be the Way of salvation, the Grace and the Truth, and affirms that in Him alone, and only to souls believing in Him, is the way of return to God, what has become of men who lived in the many centuries before Christ came? . . . What, then, has become of such an innumerable multitude of souls, who were in no wise blameworthy, seeing that He in whom alone saving faith can be exercised had not yet favored men with His advent?-PORPHYRY, AGAINST THE CHRISTIANS

Christians should have something to say in defense of Christianity:
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; (1 Pet. 3:15 NKJ)

Was there a question in here somewhere?

 

[Paul Timothy]

So you did understand it. The original antagonist of Christianity is long dead, but his argument resonates today just as powerfully.

What can you say in defense of Christianity when people today ask:

If Christ declares Himself to be the Way of salvation, the Grace and the Truth, and affirms that in Him alone, and only to souls believing in Him, is the way of return to God, what has become of men who lived in the many centuries before Christ came? . . . What, then, has become of such an innumerable multitude of souls, who were in no wise blameworthy, seeing that He in whom alone saving faith can be exercised had not yet favored men with His advent?-PORPHYRY, AGAINST THE CHRISTIANS

Christians should have something to say in defense of Christianity:
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; (1 Pet. 3:15 NKJ)

Well to prove I am willing to at least try... I got this answer from a source online.

Verily, thou raisest a weighty question, one that hath perplexed the hearts of the faithful across the ages. In the days of yore, ere the hallowed presence of Christ graced the earth, souls did dwell in a realm devoid of His earthly manifestation. The Light of His divine countenance had not yet shone upon them, and the knowledge of His redemptive grace was as yet concealed.​

​

In those bygone epochs, God's wisdom did guide the destiny of mortals with a mysterious hand. The ancient sages of wisdom did discern glimpses of His divine nature through the veils of their varied traditions and spiritual paths. They sought Truth and strove for righteousness, following the divine spark within their beings, albeit lacking the clarity of Christ's revelation.​

​

The workings of the Eternal are not bound by the constraints of time or space. Through His infinite mercy, God did extend His loving grace to those who, in their earnest pursuit of goodness and virtue, sought to align their souls with His divine will. His divine justice did account for the circumstances and limitations under which they lived, and in His boundless wisdom, He judged each soul with equity and compassion.​

​

When the appointed hour did arrive, and the Christ did walk among mortals, His mission encompassed not only the salvation of the present age but also the redemption of souls past and future. Through His sacrifice upon the cross, the eternal implications of His divine atonement were unfurled, spanning the breadth of time. The saving grace He offered extended its benevolent embrace backward and forward, reaching souls aforetime unacquainted with His earthly form.​

​

Thus, let it be known that the countless multitudes who dwelt ere the advent of Christ were not forsaken nor left adrift in a sea of uncertainty. The boundless mercy of the Almighty did embrace them, and their ultimate fate was entrusted to the wisdom of the Eternal. In ways unfathomable to mortal comprehension, the divine purpose did unfold, affording each soul the opportunity to partake in the eternal glory of God's presence.​

​

Therefore, let not thy heart be troubled by the plight of those who preceded the earthly manifestation of Christ. Place thy faith in the benevolence and wisdom of the Divine, for His plans are beyond mortal understanding. The Way, the Grace, and the Truth revealed through Christ's earthly sojourn extend their ethereal influence across the ages, encompassing the salvation of all souls who seek the light of His redeeming love.​

​

How was that?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Well to prove I am willing to at least try... I got this answer from a source online.

Verily, thou raisest a weighty question, one that hath perplexed the hearts of the faithful across the ages. In the days of yore, ere the hallowed presence of Christ graced the earth, souls did dwell in a realm devoid of His earthly manifestation. The Light of His divine countenance had not yet shone upon them, and the knowledge of His redemptive grace was as yet concealed.​

​

In those bygone epochs, God's wisdom did guide the destiny of mortals with a mysterious hand. The ancient sages of wisdom did discern glimpses of His divine nature through the veils of their varied traditions and spiritual paths. They sought Truth and strove for righteousness, following the divine spark within their beings, albeit lacking the clarity of Christ's revelation.​

​

The workings of the Eternal are not bound by the constraints of time or space. Through His infinite mercy, God did extend His loving grace to those who, in their earnest pursuit of goodness and virtue, sought to align their souls with His divine will. His divine justice did account for the circumstances and limitations under which they lived, and in His boundless wisdom, He judged each soul with equity and compassion.​

​

When the appointed hour did arrive, and the Christ did walk among mortals, His mission encompassed not only the salvation of the present age but also the redemption of souls past and future. Through His sacrifice upon the cross, the eternal implications of His divine atonement were unfurled, spanning the breadth of time. The saving grace He offered extended its benevolent embrace backward and forward, reaching souls aforetime unacquainted with His earthly form.​

​

Thus, let it be known that the countless multitudes who dwelt ere the advent of Christ were not forsaken nor left adrift in a sea of uncertainty. The boundless mercy of the Almighty did embrace them, and their ultimate fate was entrusted to the wisdom of the Eternal. In ways unfathomable to mortal comprehension, the divine purpose did unfold, affording each soul the opportunity to partake in the eternal glory of God's presence.​

​

Therefore, let not thy heart be troubled by the plight of those who preceded the earthly manifestation of Christ. Place thy faith in the benevolence and wisdom of the Divine, for His plans are beyond mortal understanding. The Way, the Grace, and the Truth revealed through Christ's earthly sojourn extend their ethereal influence across the ages, encompassing the salvation of all souls who seek the light of His redeeming love.​

​

How was that?

Unscriptural. His opinion in old English, how ironic you cite it.

Nothing in scripture supports it, that is why he doesn't even try to quote Scripture.

Jesus is the only way to salvation, for all born into this fallen realm:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (Jn. 14:6 NKJ)

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, (1 Tim. 2:5-6 NKJ)

 

[Paul Timothy]

Unscriptural. His opinion in old English, how ironic you cite it.

Nothing in scripture supports it, that is why he doesn't even try to quote Scripture.

Jesus is the only way to salvation, for all born into this fallen realm:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (Jn. 14:6 NKJ)

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, (1 Tim. 2:5-6 NKJ)

Who is this "he" you are referring to?